Derail from Feminist Gamer: Catcalling on the Streets

[Rhea]

Its not the fact that its jeans and t-shirt, but the snug fit which emphasizes her curves. Here's a guy wearing "just" a t-shirt and jeans while walking in NYC.


I think if he wore a bulky jacket and saggy jeans that hid his physique, I don't think he would have got as much attention.

Wouldn't the comparison be to be wearing a black tee shirt (by the way, hers was loose enough to have wrinkles at the waist, not that she should be constrained to that) and for him to be walking as fast and purposefully as she did?

Yeah.

Also. They claim 30 instances of harassment. There were EIGHT. Two of those were people who turned to look but said nothing. And maybe that's the other 22 that they didn't think were worth showing, because it wouldn't have supported their point. Those are not what the earlier video complains about as harassment.

And finally, yeah, that is harassment and he doesn't deserve it despite his tight tee shirt.

So

• a built model in a tight white see-through shirt walking at a near strolling pace gets eight catcalls in 3 hours, or about 3 per hour. Not one person says, "why are not answering me!?" of follows him. The one woman who asked for a number said, "guess not" and walked away when he didn't answer.

Versus

• a normal woman model (not super buff or super skinny) with hair obscuring much of her face wearing a black shirt walking _fast_ and purposefully and gets more than a hundred catcalls in 10 hours including a man following her for 5 full minutes and two who call out and follow that she is not responding, and the hundred does not _even_ include the ones who said nothing but only looked because that was not the main complaint, so 10 per hour.

And that's your come-back about why she should dress more modestly?



(and I LMAO at that woman in the red coat who had to be turned around by her boyfriend. Funny!)

 

[ksen]

I'm not sure how this is different than blaming a rape victim for wearing provocative clothing.

 

[Rhea]

Are feminists scolds?

relevance?

 

[ksen]

Obviously women who just want to be treated as autonomous individuals and not as simple masturbation aids are tired, dried up, old shrews.

 

[Rhea]

Obviously women who just want to be treated as autonomous individuals and not as simple masturbation aids are tired, dried up, old shrews.

Ah, thanks for the translation!


I also notice from the two videos that model-woman is wearing a tee shirt on a day when almost everyone else is also in a tee shirt. While model-man is wearing a tee shirt on a day when everyone else is wearing a coat. Gee, would bright white tight tee shirt on a cold day draw any extra eyes or attention? A little bit of thumb-on-the-scale there. I would not use this video as a rebuttal to the stark reality shown in that woman's video. It just shows how very very hard they had to work to get even 1/3 of the harassment that she got. Highlights her point rather than refutes it.

And looks stupid to say, "well men have it 1/3 as bad when they act 4 times more provocatively! See? "harassment!" "

 

[thebeave]

Its not the fact that its jeans and t-shirt, but the snug fit which emphasizes her curves. Here's a guy wearing "just" a t-shirt and jeans while walking in NYC.


I think if he wore a bulky jacket and saggy jeans that hid his physique, I don't think he would have got as much attention.

Wouldn't the comparison be to be wearing a black tee shirt (by the way, hers was loose enough to have wrinkles at the waist, not that she should be constrained to that) and for him to be walking as fast and purposefully as she did?

Yeah.

Also. They claim 30 instances of harassment. There were EIGHT. Two of those were people who turned to look but said nothing. And maybe that's the other 22 that they didn't think were worth showing, because it wouldn't have supported their point. Those are not what the earlier video complains about as harassment.

And finally, yeah, that is harassment and he doesn't deserve it despite his tight tee shirt.

So

• a built model in a tight white see-through shirt walking at a near strolling pace gets eight catcalls in 3 hours, or about 3 per hour. Not one person says, "why are not answering me!?" of follows him. The one woman who asked for a number said, "guess not" and walked away when he didn't answer.

Versus

• a normal woman model (not super buff or super skinny) with hair obscuring much of her face wearing a black shirt walking _fast_ and purposefully and gets more than a hundred catcalls in 10 hours including a man following her for 5 full minutes and two who call out and follow that she is not responding, and the hundred does not _even_ include the ones who said nothing but only looked because that was not the main complaint, so 10 per hour.

And that's your come-back about why she should dress more modestly?



(and I LMAO at that woman in the red coat who had to be turned around by her boyfriend. Funny!)

I'm not saying she should dress more modestly, or that the guys have it worse. What the men did was wrong, and what the women did in the second video was wrong. I was merely pointing out that the fit of the clothing is important. She tried to minimize her plight by saying, "I was just wearing a tshirt and jeans". That's a bit disingenous IMHO.

 

[Rhea]

I'm not saying she should dress more modestly, or that the guys have it worse. What the men did was wrong, and what the women did in the second video was wrong. I was merely pointing out that the fit of the clothing is important. She tried to minimize her plight by saying, "I was just wearing a tshirt and jeans". That's a bit disingenous IMHO.

I disagree. The fit of the clothing is _NOT_ important. The catcalling is wrong no matter what she wore.

But even so, if you look in the background she was not wearing anything unusual at all. Go google still images of that video and just browse them. She was dressed NORMALLY. Absolutely, completely, utterly normally for the neighborhood in which she was walking. Many other women in that video were wearing snug tee shirts.

(He on the other hand, was not. He was the only one in the whole video without a coat. THAT is disingenuous to make that video as a comparison)

You cannot say that you are "not saying she should dress more modestly" and at the same time be "merely pointing out that the fit of the clothing is important." The clothinhg is not important. It is wrong behavior even if she is dressed to impress her date later and it is telling her what to wear to suggest otherwise.

 

[Rhea]

This is an interesting follow-up with some comments about the responses women are giving.

http://www.cardsagainstharassment.com/faqs.html

and this one that makes me ask the #notallmen people, so, what's the deal? Are you an ally, a bystander, an agitator or another perpetrator? Which one are you, actually? Because #notallmen type responses do not make you an ally, and probably not a bystander, even.
http://courtneymeaker.com/2014/05/11/street-harassment-walking-while-fat-and-writing/

Another interesting one is the New Zealand version where a good looking model did this for 10 hours and did not get a single catcall. I would conjecture that none of the men there think it would be a compliment, since none of them did it? But maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Axulus]

Some men may well be sincere, but their advances are still as unwelcome as the salespeople who stand in the mall trying to catch a shopper's interest: The occasional person might not mind, and may even stop and buy, but the majority of people want the salespeople to fuck off and leave them alone.

(It's not that I don't like want a good deal on a birthday party at a paintball field, it's just that I don't want to stop and talk to you about it, as evidenced by my complete lack of interest in your booth and the fact that I haven't even broken stride.)

It is predatory, although that is not necessarily a bad thing. It's quite natural for (straight) men to take notice of women they find sexy. However it's poor form to express one's desires spontaneously to women on the street without regard to how they might receive it: Odds are that most won't welcome the attention.

If you never try, failure is guaranteed, right?

That does not give one a licence to engage in anti-social behaviour.

Well, this is all good news to me. I never open my mouth to strangers for fear I might be found annoying or the conversation unwanted. It looks like I had the right idea in mind. About the only time I talk to someone is under pressure from friends or acquaintances who think I'm being too quiet, or after at least 3 drinks.

Yup, you had the right idea all along if your conversation was going to be about her looks, her body or her availability.
Nothing wrong with looking pleasant and happy about life as people pass you by.
And nothing wrong with opening your mouth about the weather, the big local event, the cute kid or puppy that you both see - when you are both paused in the same place. When you accidentally or casually make eye contact with a stranger, a small smile and a nodded, "hello" are not harassing (although I realize city people rarely make eye contact as we rural folks do, but there's a reason for that, right? It's to show that greeting are not desired.)

But if you call out to stop someone you don't know from what they are already doing, in order to get them to include you in their day, especially if it is to discuss their physical person, then it will almost universally be unwelcome, annoying and harassing.

It's a continuum, but there are some things that are pretty clearly always on the creeper side of the line with regard to people you do not know:

• Trying to stop them from their existing path/speed/direction to notice you by calling out or shouting out at them when they are just going by.
• Making your comment about their physical person.
• Feeling annoyance at them if they fail to notice you(stranger) in a sea of many strangers.

Those three are not jovial, not polite, not friendly, and, for the target not safe.
They are harassment.
If any person in that video did something other than those three things, we could argue about whether they were harassing. But they all did. She was walking purposefully without inviting socialization. They violated that clear signal, every one of them.

They weren't calling out "Good Morning," to the happy world in general, they were calling it out to her, at her, expecting her attention to it.

But I'm specifically referring to those who walk by her who say "how are you doing?" or "hope you are having a nice evening" or even "wow, you are a beauty.". Yes, her looks are what is getting their attention, but is it really harassment? Maybe annoying, sure? Annoying for every woman? Are you sure about that? It seems like they are throwing out a line to see if she will catch it. If she doesn't, no big deal (any of those guys who act offended or admonish her for not responding to them are engaging in harassment, no question, I'm only talking about those who make a brief attempt and then go along their way when she doesn't respond). How many women think this is creepy? What about the men who are trying to grab the attention of the women who happen to get a response (because some women perhaps don't view it as harassment)? I'm not trying to justify creepy behavior here. I'm just trying to determine where the line is here and whether all women are in agreement.

If a woman in you life told you she was being called out daily by men on her way to work, would you spend this much time trying to convince her that is wasn't really harassment, or would you listen to her?

Of course I'll listen to her, but does she speak for every woman?

 

[Axulus]

If a woman in you life told you she was being called out daily by men on her way to work, would you spend this much time trying to convince her that is wasn't really harassment, or would you listen to her?

That's what really gets me about this. Women all over the internet where this is being discussed say they don't like it yet men continue to defend it. They want to defend their right to be rude and obnoxious because they're men. Women don't like it so just stop it already.

This is what we are trying to establish here. Is there a consensus that saying "hope you're having a nice evening" while walking past a nice looking woman is harassment? Does every woman feel this way, or at least the vast majority?

 

[Axulus]

But I'm specifically referring to those who walk by her who say "how are you doing?" or "hope you are having a nice evening" or even "wow, you are a beauty.". Yes, her looks are what is getting their attention, but is it really harassment?

They are trying to impede her progress. Change it. Stop it. Make themselves part of her day.
Yes.

Maybe annoying, sure? Annoying for every woman? Are you sure about that?

The response by women to this video is nearly universal. Read the comments on any of the zillion postings of this video. The comments by women are saying YES WE HATE THIS nearly universally. There may be a 0.001% occurence of women saying "no big deal," as is their right. Conclusion - annoying for pretty much every woman. Women are answering this in droves with a pretty singular message. As I said, if you are genuinely curious if this is "every woman" then just go read the comments sections on 20 or 30 of the places where this is posted. Note what the women are saying.

There's your sign.

It seems like they are throwing out a line to see if she will catch it.

Can you document a single instance of this actually working? I don't think it works, pretty much ever.
As has been noted in this very thread, it's not the catcallers who turn our heads. it's the respectful interactions. The one who smiles warmly and nods good day.

If she doesn't, no big deal (any of those guys who act offended or admonish her for not responding to them are engaging in harassment, no question, I'm only talking about those who make a brief attempt and then go along their way when she doesn't respond). How many women think this is creepy?

So far on this thread? All of us, right?
In the comments sections of the myriad postings of this video? All but one or two.
Are you willing to harrass 99.999% of women in the hopes of landing the ppm?

edited to add: and yeah, it actually is a big deal. Since nearly every single woman asked hates it and feels harassed. Or is there an argument that this result isn't a big deal?

What about the men who are trying to grab the attention of the women who happen to get a response (because some women perhaps don't view it as harassment)? I'm not trying to justify creepy behavior here. I'm just trying to determine where the line is here and whether all women are in agreement.

In my opinion, and apparently in the opinion of the overwhelmingly vast majority of women posting on those blogs and threads, the line lies here:

Is she a stranger?
Are you calling out to grab her attention because she did not offer her attention on her own?

= creepy.

- - - Updated - - -

If a woman in you life told you she was being called out daily by men on her way to work, would you spend this much time trying to convince her that is wasn't really harassment, or would you listen to her?

That's what really gets me about this. Women all over the internet where this is being discussed say they don't like it yet men continue to defend it. They want to defend their right to be rude and obnoxious because they're men. Women don't like it so just stop it already.

Yes, this is so obvious and unequivocal.

Fair enough

 

[Rhea]

If a woman in you life told you she was being called out daily by men on her way to work, would you spend this much time trying to convince her that is wasn't really harassment, or would you listen to her?

Of course I'll listen to her, but does she speak for every woman?

Can you explain why that would be relevant to your ability to listen to her problem and understand that being called out is wrong?
and
Can you explain why you think it is not wrong unless EVERY WOMAN finds it wrong? (which appears to be your point in that post)
and
Can you explain whether it is objectively wrong to cut strangers with razor blades given the true fact that some people like that done to them?
and, perhaps,
Can you explain why on earth you or anyone would persist in the face of the HUGE NUMBER of women here and elsewhere online who have said it is not okay? What do you get out of this?


What is the reason to NOT stop this practice? All I've heard is that it is okay to annoy, disgust, harass and frighten many thousands of women because, "stopping catcalls to all women blocks the minuscule chance that I might get a phone number one day from someone I've catcalled" and I'm kinda dumbfounded that this seems like a reasonable argument to anyone.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Some men may well be sincere, but their advances are still as unwelcome as the salespeople who stand in the mall trying to catch a shopper's interest: The occasional person might not mind, and may even stop and buy, but the majority of people want the salespeople to fuck off and leave them alone.

(It's not that I don't like want a good deal on a birthday party at a paintball field, it's just that I don't want to stop and talk to you about it, as evidenced by my complete lack of interest in your booth and the fact that I haven't even broken stride.)

It is predatory, although that is not necessarily a bad thing. It's quite natural for (straight) men to take notice of women they find sexy. However it's poor form to express one's desires spontaneously to women on the street without regard to how they might receive it: Odds are that most won't welcome the attention.

If you never try, failure is guaranteed, right?

That does not give one a licence to engage in anti-social behaviour.

Well, this is all good news to me. I never open my mouth to strangers for fear I might be found annoying or the conversation unwanted. It looks like I had the right idea in mind. About the only time I talk to someone is under pressure from friends or acquaintances who think I'm being too quiet, or after at least 3 drinks.

Yup, you had the right idea all along if your conversation was going to be about her looks, her body or her availability.
Nothing wrong with looking pleasant and happy about life as people pass you by.
And nothing wrong with opening your mouth about the weather, the big local event, the cute kid or puppy that you both see - when you are both paused in the same place. When you accidentally or casually make eye contact with a stranger, a small smile and a nodded, "hello" are not harassing (although I realize city people rarely make eye contact as we rural folks do, but there's a reason for that, right? It's to show that greeting are not desired.)

But if you call out to stop someone you don't know from what they are already doing, in order to get them to include you in their day, especially if it is to discuss their physical person, then it will almost universally be unwelcome, annoying and harassing.

It's a continuum, but there are some things that are pretty clearly always on the creeper side of the line with regard to people you do not know:

• Trying to stop them from their existing path/speed/direction to notice you by calling out or shouting out at them when they are just going by.
• Making your comment about their physical person.
• Feeling annoyance at them if they fail to notice you(stranger) in a sea of many strangers.

Those three are not jovial, not polite, not friendly, and, for the target not safe.
They are harassment.
If any person in that video did something other than those three things, we could argue about whether they were harassing. But they all did. She was walking purposefully without inviting socialization. They violated that clear signal, every one of them.

They weren't calling out "Good Morning," to the happy world in general, they were calling it out to her, at her, expecting her attention to it.

But I'm specifically referring to those who walk by her who say "how are you doing?" or "hope you are having a nice evening" or even "wow, you are a beauty.". Yes, her looks are what is getting their attention, but is it really harassment? Maybe annoying, sure? Annoying for every woman? Are you sure about that? It seems like they are throwing out a line to see if she will catch it. If she doesn't, no big deal (any of those guys who act offended or admonish her for not responding to them are engaging in harassment, no question, I'm only talking about those who make a brief attempt and then go along their way when she doesn't respond). How many women think this is creepy? What about the men who are trying to grab the attention of the women who happen to get a response (because some women perhaps don't view it as harassment)? I'm not trying to justify creepy behavior here. I'm just trying to determine where the line is here and whether all women are in agreement.

If a woman in you life told you she was being called out daily by men on her way to work, would you spend this much time trying to convince her that is wasn't really harassment, or would you listen to her?

Of course I'll listen to her, but does she speak for every woman?

Must she? Is that the bar? Speak for 3.5 billion women or don't speak, you have no credibility unless you can prove that all women agree with you?

 

[ksen]

I think a normal man would want to go out and beat some asses if his girl told him that had happened to her instead of spending a bunch of time trying figure out if she speaks for all women first or not.

 

[Axulus]

Some men may well be sincere, but their advances are still as unwelcome as the salespeople who stand in the mall trying to catch a shopper's interest: The occasional person might not mind, and may even stop and buy, but the majority of people want the salespeople to fuck off and leave them alone.

(It's not that I don't like want a good deal on a birthday party at a paintball field, it's just that I don't want to stop and talk to you about it, as evidenced by my complete lack of interest in your booth and the fact that I haven't even broken stride.)

It is predatory, although that is not necessarily a bad thing. It's quite natural for (straight) men to take notice of women they find sexy. However it's poor form to express one's desires spontaneously to women on the street without regard to how they might receive it: Odds are that most won't welcome the attention.

If you never try, failure is guaranteed, right?

That does not give one a licence to engage in anti-social behaviour.

Well, this is all good news to me. I never open my mouth to strangers for fear I might be found annoying or the conversation unwanted. It looks like I had the right idea in mind. About the only time I talk to someone is under pressure from friends or acquaintances who think I'm being too quiet, or after at least 3 drinks.

Yup, you had the right idea all along if your conversation was going to be about her looks, her body or her availability.
Nothing wrong with looking pleasant and happy about life as people pass you by.
And nothing wrong with opening your mouth about the weather, the big local event, the cute kid or puppy that you both see - when you are both paused in the same place. When you accidentally or casually make eye contact with a stranger, a small smile and a nodded, "hello" are not harassing (although I realize city people rarely make eye contact as we rural folks do, but there's a reason for that, right? It's to show that greeting are not desired.)

But if you call out to stop someone you don't know from what they are already doing, in order to get them to include you in their day, especially if it is to discuss their physical person, then it will almost universally be unwelcome, annoying and harassing.

It's a continuum, but there are some things that are pretty clearly always on the creeper side of the line with regard to people you do not know:

• Trying to stop them from their existing path/speed/direction to notice you by calling out or shouting out at them when they are just going by.
• Making your comment about their physical person.
• Feeling annoyance at them if they fail to notice you(stranger) in a sea of many strangers.

Those three are not jovial, not polite, not friendly, and, for the target not safe.
They are harassment.
If any person in that video did something other than those three things, we could argue about whether they were harassing. But they all did. She was walking purposefully without inviting socialization. They violated that clear signal, every one of them.

They weren't calling out "Good Morning," to the happy world in general, they were calling it out to her, at her, expecting her attention to it.

But I'm specifically referring to those who walk by her who say "how are you doing?" or "hope you are having a nice evening" or even "wow, you are a beauty.". Yes, her looks are what is getting their attention, but is it really harassment? Maybe annoying, sure? Annoying for every woman? Are you sure about that? It seems like they are throwing out a line to see if she will catch it. If she doesn't, no big deal (any of those guys who act offended or admonish her for not responding to them are engaging in harassment, no question, I'm only talking about those who make a brief attempt and then go along their way when she doesn't respond). How many women think this is creepy? What about the men who are trying to grab the attention of the women who happen to get a response (because some women perhaps don't view it as harassment)? I'm not trying to justify creepy behavior here. I'm just trying to determine where the line is here and whether all women are in agreement.

If a woman in you life told you she was being called out daily by men on her way to work, would you spend this much time trying to convince her that is wasn't really harassment, or would you listen to her?

Of course I'll listen to her, but does she speak for every woman?

Must she? Is that the bar? Speak for 3.5 billion women or don't speak, you have no credibility unless you can prove that all women agree with you?

If we are talking about behavior which is being suggested that we universally condemn, then yes, I think a consensus on the matter is important rather than listening to a single woman like you suggest.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I think a normal man would want to go out and beat some asses if his girl told him that had happened to her instead of spending a bunch of time trying figure out if she speaks for all women first or not.

That has been my experience

 

[ksen]

If we are talking about behavior which is being suggested that we universally condemn, then yes, I think a consensus on the matter is important rather than listening to a single woman like you suggest.

Maybe we should get consensus about rape too before we universally condemn it. I mean, some women like it.

 

[Rhea]

Must she? Is that the bar? Speak for 3.5 billion women or don't speak, you have no credibility unless you can prove that all women agree with you?

If we are talking about behavior which is being suggested that we universally condemn, then yes, I think a consensus on the matter is important rather than listening to a single woman like you suggest.

Is your bar that every single women must hate it for it to be universally condemned? Or is there some partial repugnance that would be enough?

And given the OVERWHELMINGLY UNIFORM RESPONSE OF WOMEN presented so far, do you still have questions?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Some men may well be sincere, but their advances are still as unwelcome as the salespeople who stand in the mall trying to catch a shopper's interest: The occasional person might not mind, and may even stop and buy, but the majority of people want the salespeople to fuck off and leave them alone.

(It's not that I don't like want a good deal on a birthday party at a paintball field, it's just that I don't want to stop and talk to you about it, as evidenced by my complete lack of interest in your booth and the fact that I haven't even broken stride.)

It is predatory, although that is not necessarily a bad thing. It's quite natural for (straight) men to take notice of women they find sexy. However it's poor form to express one's desires spontaneously to women on the street without regard to how they might receive it: Odds are that most won't welcome the attention.

If you never try, failure is guaranteed, right?

That does not give one a licence to engage in anti-social behaviour.

Well, this is all good news to me. I never open my mouth to strangers for fear I might be found annoying or the conversation unwanted. It looks like I had the right idea in mind. About the only time I talk to someone is under pressure from friends or acquaintances who think I'm being too quiet, or after at least 3 drinks.

Yup, you had the right idea all along if your conversation was going to be about her looks, her body or her availability.
Nothing wrong with looking pleasant and happy about life as people pass you by.
And nothing wrong with opening your mouth about the weather, the big local event, the cute kid or puppy that you both see - when you are both paused in the same place. When you accidentally or casually make eye contact with a stranger, a small smile and a nodded, "hello" are not harassing (although I realize city people rarely make eye contact as we rural folks do, but there's a reason for that, right? It's to show that greeting are not desired.)

But if you call out to stop someone you don't know from what they are already doing, in order to get them to include you in their day, especially if it is to discuss their physical person, then it will almost universally be unwelcome, annoying and harassing.

It's a continuum, but there are some things that are pretty clearly always on the creeper side of the line with regard to people you do not know:

• Trying to stop them from their existing path/speed/direction to notice you by calling out or shouting out at them when they are just going by.
• Making your comment about their physical person.
• Feeling annoyance at them if they fail to notice you(stranger) in a sea of many strangers.

Those three are not jovial, not polite, not friendly, and, for the target not safe.
They are harassment.
If any person in that video did something other than those three things, we could argue about whether they were harassing. But they all did. She was walking purposefully without inviting socialization. They violated that clear signal, every one of them.

They weren't calling out "Good Morning," to the happy world in general, they were calling it out to her, at her, expecting her attention to it.

But I'm specifically referring to those who walk by her who say "how are you doing?" or "hope you are having a nice evening" or even "wow, you are a beauty.". Yes, her looks are what is getting their attention, but is it really harassment? Maybe annoying, sure? Annoying for every woman? Are you sure about that? It seems like they are throwing out a line to see if she will catch it. If she doesn't, no big deal (any of those guys who act offended or admonish her for not responding to them are engaging in harassment, no question, I'm only talking about those who make a brief attempt and then go along their way when she doesn't respond). How many women think this is creepy? What about the men who are trying to grab the attention of the women who happen to get a response (because some women perhaps don't view it as harassment)? I'm not trying to justify creepy behavior here. I'm just trying to determine where the line is here and whether all women are in agreement.

If a woman in you life told you she was being called out daily by men on her way to work, would you spend this much time trying to convince her that is wasn't really harassment, or would you listen to her?

Of course I'll listen to her, but does she speak for every woman?

Must she? Is that the bar? Speak for 3.5 billion women or don't speak, you have no credibility unless you can prove that all women agree with you?

If we are talking about behavior which is being suggested that we universally condemn, then yes, I think a consensus on the matter is important rather than listening to a single woman like you suggest.

And concensus is ALL WOMEN?

So if ONE WOMAN thinks it's ok, then I and every other woman should change our minds about catcalling and just think my space, my body, and my time is available to public comment?

 

[Axulus]

If we are talking about behavior which is being suggested that we universally condemn, then yes, I think a consensus on the matter is important rather than listening to a single woman like you suggest.

Is your bar that every single women must hate it for it to be universally condemned? Or is there some partial repugnance that would be enough?

And given the OVERWHELMINGLY UNIFORM RESPONSE OF WOMEN presented so far, do you still have questions?

No, did I say I did? Athena suggested we listen to just one woman. I suggested we get a consensus, and she objected.

- - - Updated - - -

Some men may well be sincere, but their advances are still as unwelcome as the salespeople who stand in the mall trying to catch a shopper's interest: The occasional person might not mind, and may even stop and buy, but the majority of people want the salespeople to fuck off and leave them alone.

(It's not that I don't like want a good deal on a birthday party at a paintball field, it's just that I don't want to stop and talk to you about it, as evidenced by my complete lack of interest in your booth and the fact that I haven't even broken stride.)

It is predatory, although that is not necessarily a bad thing. It's quite natural for (straight) men to take notice of women they find sexy. However it's poor form to express one's desires spontaneously to women on the street without regard to how they might receive it: Odds are that most won't welcome the attention.

If you never try, failure is guaranteed, right?

That does not give one a licence to engage in anti-social behaviour.

Well, this is all good news to me. I never open my mouth to strangers for fear I might be found annoying or the conversation unwanted. It looks like I had the right idea in mind. About the only time I talk to someone is under pressure from friends or acquaintances who think I'm being too quiet, or after at least 3 drinks.

Yup, you had the right idea all along if your conversation was going to be about her looks, her body or her availability.
Nothing wrong with looking pleasant and happy about life as people pass you by.
And nothing wrong with opening your mouth about the weather, the big local event, the cute kid or puppy that you both see - when you are both paused in the same place. When you accidentally or casually make eye contact with a stranger, a small smile and a nodded, "hello" are not harassing (although I realize city people rarely make eye contact as we rural folks do, but there's a reason for that, right? It's to show that greeting are not desired.)

But if you call out to stop someone you don't know from what they are already doing, in order to get them to include you in their day, especially if it is to discuss their physical person, then it will almost universally be unwelcome, annoying and harassing.

It's a continuum, but there are some things that are pretty clearly always on the creeper side of the line with regard to people you do not know:

• Trying to stop them from their existing path/speed/direction to notice you by calling out or shouting out at them when they are just going by.
• Making your comment about their physical person.
• Feeling annoyance at them if they fail to notice you(stranger) in a sea of many strangers.

Those three are not jovial, not polite, not friendly, and, for the target not safe.
They are harassment.
If any person in that video did something other than those three things, we could argue about whether they were harassing. But they all did. She was walking purposefully without inviting socialization. They violated that clear signal, every one of them.

They weren't calling out "Good Morning," to the happy world in general, they were calling it out to her, at her, expecting her attention to it.

But I'm specifically referring to those who walk by her who say "how are you doing?" or "hope you are having a nice evening" or even "wow, you are a beauty.". Yes, her looks are what is getting their attention, but is it really harassment? Maybe annoying, sure? Annoying for every woman? Are you sure about that? It seems like they are throwing out a line to see if she will catch it. If she doesn't, no big deal (any of those guys who act offended or admonish her for not responding to them are engaging in harassment, no question, I'm only talking about those who make a brief attempt and then go along their way when she doesn't respond). How many women think this is creepy? What about the men who are trying to grab the attention of the women who happen to get a response (because some women perhaps don't view it as harassment)? I'm not trying to justify creepy behavior here. I'm just trying to determine where the line is here and whether all women are in agreement.

If a woman in you life told you she was being called out daily by men on her way to work, would you spend this much time trying to convince her that is wasn't really harassment, or would you listen to her?

Of course I'll listen to her, but does she speak for every woman?

Must she? Is that the bar? Speak for 3.5 billion women or don't speak, you have no credibility unless you can prove that all women agree with you?

If we are talking about behavior which is being suggested that we universally condemn, then yes, I think a consensus on the matter is important rather than listening to a single woman like you suggest.

And concensus is ALL WOMEN?

So if ONE WOMAN thinks it's ok, then I and every other woman should change our minds about catcalling and just think my space, my body, and my time is available to public comment?

Once again, you are failing to read what is written.