Derail from "God Can't Pick Up A Piece of Paper"

[Kharakov]

Why doesn't God pay attention to my childish whim, when God knows that I'll write it off as a hallucination or attribute it to a menacing conspiracy, psychics, or some type of tech that I am not privy to? It can't possibly be that someone who is too childish to understand their potential reactions is also too childish to treat as an adult, can it?

Someone who'd say "pick up a piece of paper to prove yourself to me" doesn't even understand their own nature, and definitely hasn't thought this through.

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

Dave was asking those cultists to have their god prove itself. I realize that you, who would happily drink the piss and eat the shit of a pretended god, can't understand that, but I can't help that. Go grovel at the feet of that imaginary Canaanite demon, slave.

Eldarion Lathria

 

[Kharakov]

Dave was asking those cultists to have their god prove itself.

Of course he was- he's at that stage of intellectual development. And we both know (well at least I do- if you don't, then you don't know yourself) that even if God did grab the piece of paper, or made it burst into flames, or whatever, Dave would have doubted that it was God.

Instead, whatever happened would have been written off as due to tech, or something else, designed to manipulate Dave into God belief, so that Dave could be indoctrinated into eternal servitude to whatever being (or group of beings) that tricked him into believing in God.

Both Dave, and possibly you, would believe something else had done whatever happened, because you're so entrenched in your paranoia. God can do anything, and the experience would be written off as a hallucination, psychic, or technological manipulation to trick you.

I realize that you, who would happily drink the piss and eat the shit of a pretended god, can't understand that, but I can't help that.

Well, I don't consider  Saccharomyces cerevisiae to be a god, but I do happily consume their waste products.

Go grovel at the feet of that imaginary Canaanite demon, slave.

You should hook up with a hot demoness someday. They are bad. Very bad.

 

[dystopian]

Why doesn't God pay attention to my childish whim, when God knows that I'll write it off as a hallucination or attribute it to a menacing conspiracy, psychics, or some type of tech that I am not privy to? It can't possibly be that someone who is too childish to understand their potential reactions is also too childish to treat as an adult, can it?

Someone who'd say "pick up a piece of paper to prove yourself to me" doesn't even understand their own nature, and definitely hasn't thought this through.

I think it rather the opposite.

God is supposedly the supreme being in all the universe (and beyond); he/she/it is omniscient; meaning that it literally CAN'T not pay attention to your 'childish whims'; and omnipotent; meaning that it can not only easily indulge your 'childish whims', but can easily do it in such a way that you can't then write it off as anything other than absolute proof of its existence: it doesn't matter if someone doesn't understand their own nature and reactions because a supreme all knowing, all-powerful entity does and can easily work around it.

 

[Kharakov]

Poor God, in fear he might get doubted and therefore withholding minor little demonstrations.
He could skip the piece of paper and move onto something more convincing… What excuse reason is there for Him not doing that?

Removed the negative connotation from your post for you. Perhaps you didn't understand what I said in the post above yours?

How mature or foresightful or self-knowing is it to be so ready with excuses reasons for God?

FIFY again. I understand myself, and how I would have acted at Dave's maturity level (level of self knowledge and how one would react). So as I understand what my reactions were at that very obstinate stage of life, at which I did very similar "clever" (in all truth, ignorant) things to various believers who dared to cross (were led across) my path, I can speak as someone who has made it through that stage of life.

I know how a suspicious, critical, skeptical mind works, because I have one. I even doubt that you lack understanding of the truth, although you present yourself as ignorant rather successfully, which says something about your skills of deception.

I could act as you do, if I felt I had to. I've done it in the past. I just don't think its necessary, unless you're trying to rope in some young dumb kid, trick him into valuing logical thought by throwing a few creationist heels at him, and then spring the ultimate trap (which isn't really a trap, but rather a lesson, tied up neatly with perfect logic). Watch out Schrödinger's atheist, it's a trap!

 

[Kharakov]

God is supposedly the supreme being in all the universe (and beyond); he/she/it is omniscient; meaning that it literally CAN'T not pay attention to your 'childish whims'; and omnipotent; meaning that it can not only easily indulge your 'childish whims', but can easily do it in such a way that you can't then write it off as anything other than absolute proof of its existence: it doesn't matter if someone doesn't understand their own nature and reactions because a supreme all knowing, all-powerful entity does and can easily work around it.

Shit, sometimes I forget a lot of you only like to reference the holey trinity of atheism- the tri-omni strawman of God.

If I say you are a thirty ton mega elephant with bronchial pneumonia, and could possibly drink more than 2 Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters in one sitting, and you don't happen to be a thirty ton mega elephant with bronchial pneumonia, does it mean you don't exist?

 

[Kharakov]

I'm afraid you can't have it both ways. The bible says in no uncertain terms that with but a small amount of faith one can move mountains. Yet, all we see is utter and continuous failure and excuses.

Wuuuuhhh??? The bible is a book for God's sake! Haha... the movie my grandfather is watching "Lifeboat" just had that verse from Psalm 23 a bit after I typed that "..... For His name's sake."

Not really sure why you have such a narrow view of what belief in God entails. Not to worry though, I'll see you in hell and we can discuss it over coffee.

 

[abaddon]

Removed the negative connotation from your post for you. Perhaps you didn't understand what I said in the post above yours?

FIFY again. I understand myself, and how I would have acted at Dave's maturity level (level of self knowledge and how one would react). So as I understand what my reactions were at that very obstinate stage of life, at which I did very similar "clever" (in all truth, ignorant) things to various believers who dared to cross (were led across) my path, I can speak as someone who has made it through that stage of life.

I know how a suspicious, critical, skeptical mind works, because I have one. I even doubt that you lack understanding of the truth, although you present yourself as ignorant rather successfully, which says something about your skills of deception. :noteworthy:

I could act as you do, if I felt I had to. I've done it in the past. I just don't think its necessary, unless you're trying to rope in some young dumb kid, trick him into valuing logical thought by throwing a few creationist heels at him, and then spring the ultimate trap (which isn't really a trap, but rather a lesson, tied up neatly with perfect logic). What out Schrödinger's atheist, it's a trap!

That is an extremely presumptuous response so I fixed it for ya.

The god in question here is Jehovah. Context matters. Try noticing it sometimes.

 

[WAB]

Dave was asking those cultists to have their god prove itself. I realize that you, who would happily drink the piss and eat the shit of a pretended god, can't understand that, but I can't help that. Go grovel at the feet of that imaginary Canaanite demon, slave.

Eldarion Lathria

I'm a happy slave.

 

[braces_for_impact]

I'm afraid you can't have it both ways. The bible says in no uncertain terms that with but a small amount of faith one can move mountains. Yet, all we see is utter and continuous failure and excuses.

Wuuuuhhh??? The bible is a book for God's sake! Haha... the movie my grandfather is watching "Lifeboat" just had that verse from Psalm 23 a bit after I typed that "..... For His name's sake."

Not really sure why you have such a narrow view of what belief in God entails. Not to worry though, I'll see you in hell and we can discuss it over coffee.

You fool! There's no coffee in hell, that's why it's hell!

 

[Kharakov]

That is an extremely presumptuous response so I fixed it for ya.

Actually, it wasn't presumptuous, however your usage of negative connotation was presumptuous.

- - - Updated - - -

Wuuuuhhh??? The bible is a book for God's sake! Haha... the movie my grandfather is watching "Lifeboat" just had that verse from Psalm 23 a bit after I typed that "..... For His name's sake."

Not really sure why you have such a narrow view of what belief in God entails. Not to worry though, I'll see you in hell and we can discuss it over coffee.

You fool! There's no coffee in hell, that's why it's hell!

Ohh, I thought they called it Hell to trick assholes into not wanting to go. My bad. I owe you an Irish coffee.

 

[Kharakov]

Just sell little bits of paper for like 10 bucks each. Soon enough you'll sell several hundred square feet worth, but hey, that's just another miracle! Praise Jeebus!

When I was in high school, little .5 square cm pieces of paper sold for a buck a piece. Although I've heard kids sell them for 10 bucks a piece now.

Of course, you never tell the truth about the paper. You just tell people that it's impregnated with drugs, because you don't tell kids about the one who must not be named.

 

[James Brown]

Why doesn't God pay attention to my childish whim, when God knows that I'll write it off as a hallucination or attribute it to a menacing conspiracy, psychics, or some type of tech that I am not privy to? It can't possibly be that someone who is too childish to understand their potential reactions is also too childish to treat as an adult, can it?

Someone who'd say "pick up a piece of paper to prove yourself to me" doesn't even understand their own nature, and definitely hasn't thought this through.

Well, God responded to the childish whims of Gideon. Twice, even. Why not a third time?

 

[WAB]

Kharakov, you've got far more tenacity than I do. I insist that you let me get you drunk at some point in the future. Don't worry, I promise not to take advantage of ya.

 

[WAB]

Why doesn't God pay attention to my childish whim, when God knows that I'll write it off as a hallucination or attribute it to a menacing conspiracy, psychics, or some type of tech that I am not privy to? It can't possibly be that someone who is too childish to understand their potential reactions is also too childish to treat as an adult, can it?

Someone who'd say "pick up a piece of paper to prove yourself to me" doesn't even understand their own nature, and definitely hasn't thought this through.

Well, God responded to the childish whims of Gideon. Twice, even. Why not a third time?

Imagine, just as a thought experiment, that you were God. You've got what? Billions of people praying to you, asking you for things, for things for other people, etc. Plus, you've got atheists asking you to do things, let's say at least several millions of those. Even if you could answer every single request from every single person who asked something from you, whether it were in faith, or as a temptation for proof of existence, would you do it, just because you could? Or would you not?

The reality is that people are egocentric. The universe revolves around them. So, when they ask God for something, they assume they've got a direct line to the Big Kahuna and His absolute, undeviating attention. Their disappointment (or triumph) in not having their prayers or requests granted - and some people have the audacity to expect an immediate response - is an indication of how important they think they are in the Grand Scheme. It works that way for people of faith and for atheists alike.

It works that way for me too. I'm the center of the universe.

 

[Kharakov]

Why doesn't God pay attention to my childish whim, when God knows that I'll write it off as a hallucination or attribute it to a menacing conspiracy, psychics, or some type of tech that I am not privy to? It can't possibly be that someone who is too childish to understand their potential reactions is also too childish to treat as an adult, can it?

Someone who'd say "pick up a piece of paper to prove yourself to me" doesn't even understand their own nature, and definitely hasn't thought this through.

Well, God responded to the childish whims of Gideon. Twice, even. Why not a third time?

Who is Gideon? Assume he's biblical, judging from the apparent obsession with biblical references around here. Anyway, ask in GRD or somewhere else. Start a thread and I'll gladly respond, although entertaining others tomorrow, so... might be late.

- - - Updated - - -

Kharakov, you've got far more tenacity than I do. I insist that you let me get you drunk at some point in the future. Don't worry, I promise not to take advantage of ya.

haha... I've a couple friends moving to Arizona now, and might visit them at some point. I'll let you know if I'm coming out that way and have time for a visit.

 

[WAB]

Let's say someone i loved were headed for ETERNAL TORTURE. Is there anything i would NOT do to keep my loved ones from burning in perpetuity?

The reality is that people are egocentric. The universe revolves around them. So, when they ask God for something, they assume they've got a direct line to the Big Kahuna and His absolute, undeviating attention.

We're told that the Big Kahuna knows everything.
We're told that the Big Kahuna loves us all.
We're told that the Big Kahuna has sufficient power to accomplish any goal.
All of this together does not add up to a skyguy that stands by while His children drift towards Hell.
His silence IS consistent with His not actually being up there.
And His apologists, unable to bear this thought, blame the victims.

Their disappointment (or triumph) in not having their prayers or requests granted - and some people have the audacity to expect an immediate response - is an indication of how important they think they are in the Grand Scheme. It works that way for people of faith and for atheists alike.

It works that way for me too. I'm the center of the universe.

It's not a matter of my importance to me. It's a matter of how important my suffering would be to the god the christains have described to me, and how it's within his alleged power to prevent it.

Keith, I hear you.

I don't believe in hell, in fact I've said many times I think 'the concept of hell is the wet dream of religious men', religious meaning someone who adheres to a particular dogma or doctrine and believes that any deviation from that doctrine is sinister. The concept of hell and eternal damnation, or as you say ETERNAL TORTURE (and rightly so. To draw attention to how insane the idea is one must SHOUT), is in absolute contradiction to the concept of a loving and forgiving God.

That being said, Jesus is reported to have referred to eternal damnation, or an eternal destruction of sorts. I personally cannot reconcile His main teachings with any concept of a sentient person - soul/body, whatever - suffering ANY kind of mental or physical torment for ETERNITY. This idea - and I've said this before, as an atheist and as a Christian, is the most evil concept ever hatched in the human mind. It out-Herods Herod, out-Hitlers Hitler, and out-Stalins Stalin in its magnitude. If God really does plan on torturing human souls for eternity, then I will be one of those souls, because there is NO WAY I could happy in 'Heaven' knowing that even one person was suffering forever, let alone multitudes.

I put 'Heaven' in quotes only to stress the fact that I don't take an orthodox, literal view of the Bible or any theological doctrine related to God. I'm a Spinozist with respect to God-belief, and a Christian 'by nature'**, which means I have always been gentle, loving, compassionate, and even as a kid I had no problem with the concept of sharing or of letting other kids enjoy the spotlight while I avidly avoided it (something I still do in my personal and artistic life). I don't regard Christianity as a means of saving one's ass on Judgment Day. I regard it as a way of life, a way of treating others, a way of taming the ego (which all of us have) with reason and total candor.

I could go on and on, but it won't do any good, I don't imagine. The point is, there are many denominations that do not teach hell as a reality. There have always been Christians, even from the earliest days, who knew in their hearts and minds that eternal torture, eternal damnation, was EVIL, not good, and could not possibly be part of a benevolent God's plan. I've just started reading Dante, something I've put off for a good long while, mainly because I think the idea of an Inferno is stupid beyond measure. But I'm willing to go through the entire Divine Comedy now that I'm 50 and have a lot more capacity to understand what he was on about. It's good that I abandoned it when I was 19 or so, because I was too stupid then to have been able to appreciate the poetry let alone grapple with the theological issues.

Enough for now. I realize I didn't address you post point by point. I may make another post soon.

**I call myself a Christian because I'm comfortable with it at this time and I feel it suits me. I DON'T mean to say that anyone who has the attributes I mentioned - and there are MILLIONS of these kinds of people - should consider themselves a 'Christian'. They may be a Buddhist, a Muslim, a Hindu, or an atheist. I think one has the freedom to identify with any group they like, or shun all of them and defy a label. Each to his own.

 

[WAB]

An omnipotent god can give each and every one of his creations the benefit of his complete and undivided attention. With no problem.

That would be omniscient, but I know what you're saying. Maybe God is omniscient but not omnipotent? Or maybe She's neither. Maybe God doesn't exist.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I call myself a Christian because I'm comfortable with it at this time and I feel it suits me.

If you call yourself a Christain, most people are going to think you support, or at least accept, the whole Heaven/Hell/Salvation/Eternal fucking torture craziness.
When i couldn't buy into the things my church told me, i left the church and stopped calling myself a Mormon.
When i couldn't buy into the the other things Christains told me, i stopped calling myself a Christain.
At some point, i realized that i'd stopped even hoping to find a religion that made sense, and realized i should call myself an atheist. There are many connotations to the word that don't apply to me, and people will make all sorts of assumptions, but this is closer to my outlook than any other label.
If you think the basic Christain model is so offensive, why would you endorse it?

 

[WAB]

To answer the first thing in your response: I don't care what other people think of me.

To answer your last question: It should be apparent that I don't endorse the 'basic Christian model'. In fact I think most people who call themselves Christians don't understand anything Christ said or is reported to have said, don't care, and have boiled His teachings down to two things: self-preservation and self-aggrandizement.

As I said in my previous post, I could go on and on with my own personal reasons for saying what I say and doing what I do, but I don't think this is the community in which to do it. So it's probably best if I leave it at that.