Destroying John McCain

[Jimmy Higgins]

The reliability of the 'information' provided is so questionable as to be useless and is therefore not a justification for engaging in such practices.

Torture can produce good information--it's just that you have to be able to identify good information when you get it and most of the time you can't.

I love the echo you get in this thread.

If you capture 10 guys and torture them for information and they all say the same thing it's probably right. If they give 10 different answers they're lying.

Lying or they are mistaken or given false information by others to screw with any potential interrogators down the road or etc...

Torture is unethical and ineffective.

 

[bilby]

The reliability of the 'information' provided is so questionable as to be useless and is therefore not a justification for engaging in such practices.

Torture can produce good information--it's just that you have to be able to identify good information when you get it and most of the time you can't. If you capture 10 guys and torture them for information and they all say the same thing it's probably right what they realise you want them to say. If they give 10 different answers they're also lying.

FTFY.

Torture forces people to talk. It never forces anyone to speak the truth; in fact, it gives them a huge incentive to lie - if you are under torture, your best strategy is to say what you think your interrogators want to hear, while avoiding the truth as much as possible. Interrogators rarely want the truth. Humans rarely want the truth. People want to hear that things are in accordance with their prejudices, and that is what torture provides.

Torture extracts information from the mind of the torturer, in such a way that he can convince himself that it came from someone else, and is therefore true. It's an excercise in confirmation bias.

 

[laughing dog]

Torture can produce good information-

So can reading tea leaves. And, at least, reading tea leaves is not unethical and inhumane.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The saga of John McCain is an interesting one.

For a long time he was the "good" Republican, the one that defied his own party to work on bi-partisan measures, reaching out to people across the aisle. When he entered the Republican nomination in 2000, when it was pretty certain Bush would win the nomination so there was no political cost to saying this, many Democrats hoped he'd be the Republican nominee because he was a "good" Republican.

Then in 2008 he actually won the nomination. He was no longer the "good" Republican. He was the embodiment of everything wrong with the Republican Party.

A few years later, for propaganda purposes, it became necessary to paint Obama as having beaten not the worst of the worst but instead a worthy opponent, so McCain started getting rehabilitated.

Now that he's standing up against Trump, he's the "good" Republican, the one that defied his own party to work on bi-partisan measures, reaching out to people across the aisle.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The saga of John McCain is an interesting one.

For a long time he was the "good" Republican, the one that defied his own party to work on bi-partisan measures, reaching out to people across the aisle. When he entered the Republican nomination in 2000, when it was pretty certain Bush would win the nomination so there was no political cost to saying this, many Democrats hoped he'd be the Republican nominee because he was a "good" Republican.

Then in 2008 he actually won the nomination. He was no longer the "good" Republican. He was the embodiment of everything wrong with the Republican Party.

A few years later, for propaganda purposes, it became necessary to paint Obama as having beaten not the worst of the worst but instead a worthy opponent, so McCain started getting rehabilitated.

Now that he's standing up against Trump, he's the "good" Republican, the one that defied his own party to work on bi-partisan measures, reaching out to people across the aisle.

Hey, the man's a soldier. It's his duty to be whatever the people of America need him to be.

That's what heroes do.*

*Statement only valid until he's needed to be non-heroic. Check your local news cycle for details.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The saga of John McCain is an interesting one.

As long as you really try and ignore reality.

For a long time he was the "good" Republican, the one that defied his own party to work on bi-partisan measures, reaching out to people across the aisle. When he entered the Republican nomination in 2000, when it was pretty certain Bush would win the nomination so there was no political cost to saying this, many Democrats hoped he'd be the Republican nominee because he was a "good" Republican.

I didn't want McCain to be President, but he was certainly the better option of the two, by a good margin. Any one was capable of seeing that. Why he didn't win the nomination would be indicating a creeping disease into the GOP voter base... and Karl Rove.

Then in 2008 he actually won the nomination. He was no longer the "good" Republican.

He wasn't the same politician any more. His "maverick" schtick disappeared.

He was the embodiment of everything wrong with the Republican Party.

Not really, the GOP was the embodiment of everything that was wrong with the GOP. McCain was an attempt to whitewash the party's... umm... well... they were fucked in '08 because of Iraq. The nation was done for the GOP... for a couple of years. In '08 and '12, the GOP nominated decent people for the job. The problem was, despite the not radical conservatives they weren't, the GOP simply couldn't be trusted anymore.

A few years later, for propaganda purposes, it became necessary to paint Obama as having beaten not the worst of the worst but instead a worthy opponent, so McCain started getting rehabilitated.

That is an interesting fairy tale there. Are there similar imaginations of the Liberal view of Bob Dole dancing in your mind?

Now that he's standing up against Trump, he's the "good" Republican, the one that defied his own party to work on bi-partisan measures, reaching out to people across the aisle.

McCain has done no such thing. He blocked passage of a pair of bills, that is about it. He supported some versions of the ACA repeal. The thing about McCain right now is he is allegedly the embodiment of the GOP voter base dream. Military, POW, war veteran, Senator. Yet, the base doesn't give a fuck what he says... call him a RINO and a White House staffer mocked McCain's experience with torture is irrelevant because he was dying of cancer. The liberal angle in this is the brain hemmoraging frustration over the near silence from the GOP in the Senate about this, knowing that had something similar happened with Obama, there would have been hearings and demands of heads rolling. Heck, a couple in the FBI tweeted things negative about Trump and the GOP were losing their minds wanted them fired.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Well said, Don.

During the Bush administration, McCain talked big about making members of the Bush administration pay for their torture-related war crimes, but when push came to shove, he rolled over, showed his belly, and voted with Bush just about every time.

And now, he voted for the pro-torture CIA lady, reminding us all that every criticism he made of other Republicans about torture was complete and utter bullshit. He's as pro-torture as any Republican, he just likes talking like someone who is anti-torture.

In other words, he's a lot like establishment Democrats. They like to talk like moderates, but vote like conservatives much of the time.

This isn't just a McCain problem, it's a lack of empathy in general on the GOP side. We see this time and again, Republicans voting in lockstep to fuck people over unless they have some kind of actual personal life experience with the issue. Like McCain with torture, or some anti-gay legislating, ultra-religious fuckwad that suddenly finds out their daughter is a lesbian or whatever, and so then changes their vote on the issue. Suddenly they are an exception to their own rules while others are allowed no such luxury.

 

[braces_for_impact]

The reliability of the 'information' provided is so questionable as to be useless and is therefore not a justification for engaging in such practices.

Torture can produce good information--it's just that you have to be able to identify good information when you get it and most of the time you can't. If you capture 10 guys and torture them for information and they all say the same thing it's probably right what they realise you want them to say. If they give 10 different answers they're also lying.

FTFY.

Torture forces people to talk. It never forces anyone to speak the truth; in fact, it gives them a huge incentive to lie - if you are under torture, your best strategy is to say what you think your interrogators want to hear, while avoiding the truth as much as possible. Interrogators rarely want the truth. Humans rarely want the truth. People want to hear that things are in accordance with their prejudices, and that is what torture provides.

Torture extracts information from the mind of the torturer, in such a way that he can convince himself that it came from someone else, and is therefore true. It's an excercise in confirmation bias.

Yet people still try to claim it works, despite documented evidence it often does not.

 

[Toni]

I have next to no patience for McCain. When he was shot down, he was attacking primitive people with a jet fighter. Just being there made him an asshole in my book. It wasn't that he was captured. It's what he was there doing...then OMG somebody in that tortured land got hold of a surface to air missile and shot his ass down. I did not condone any torture he experienced either, but can nevertheless understand. People here like little thought experiments. What if somebody in a jet plane bombed your parent's house, killed one of them and left the other without legs. What if that person fell into your hands? What if they had minds like Trump? He says torture is okay. He is psychotic. So was McCain. He had flown 23 missions in Vietnam bombing primitive people. Both Trump and McCain were at some time aligned like peas in a pod. I will be glad to see McCain leave the Senate. What takes his place? More of the same? I am felling a sinking feeling about the whole affair of our government and our place on this planet.

Primitive people?????


What racist bullshit.

 

[bilby]

I have next to no patience for McCain. When he was shot down, he was attacking primitive people with a jet fighter. Just being there made him an asshole in my book. It wasn't that he was captured. It's what he was there doing...then OMG somebody in that tortured land got hold of a surface to air missile and shot his ass down. I did not condone any torture he experienced either, but can nevertheless understand. People here like little thought experiments. What if somebody in a jet plane bombed your parent's house, killed one of them and left the other without legs. What if that person fell into your hands? What if they had minds like Trump? He says torture is okay. He is psychotic. So was McCain. He had flown 23 missions in Vietnam bombing primitive people. Both Trump and McCain were at some time aligned like peas in a pod. I will be glad to see McCain leave the Senate. What takes his place? More of the same? I am felling a sinking feeling about the whole affair of our government and our place on this planet.

Primitive people?????


What racist bullshit.

Primitive.

Ever so primitive.

 

[repoman]

I have next to no patience for McCain. When he was shot down, he was attacking primitive people with a jet fighter. Just being there made him an asshole in my book. It wasn't that he was captured. It's what he was there doing...then OMG somebody in that tortured land got hold of a surface to air missile and shot his ass down. I did not condone any torture he experienced either, but can nevertheless understand. People here like little thought experiments. What if somebody in a jet plane bombed your parent's house, killed one of them and left the other without legs. What if that person fell into your hands? What if they had minds like Trump? He says torture is okay. He is psychotic. So was McCain. He had flown 23 missions in Vietnam bombing primitive people. Both Trump and McCain were at some time aligned like peas in a pod. I will be glad to see McCain leave the Senate. What takes his place? More of the same? I am felling a sinking feeling about the whole affair of our government and our place on this planet.

Primitive people?????


What racist bullshit.

I assume he meant equipped with comparatively primitive weapons technology at the time.

 

[steve_bank]

McCain may be the last Republican.

Attempting to destroy is not new. Jefferson was painted as a Francophile who would sell us out to the French. I've seen what was then mainstream media cartooning and caricature of Lincoln that would be shouted down today.

NcCain is an honorable man. I was watching a campaign rally where a woman voiced concern over Obama being a Muslim radical, a conspiracy theory. Without hesitation McCain said it was not true and Obama would make a fine president. The American sense of fair play,

For a long time McCain pushed for campaign finance reform, and got nowhere.

When he is gone, it is the beginning of the end of an era.

You can relitigate the VN War, but the VC and North Vietnam air defenses and air power were far from primitive. The VC were well equipped.

I do not see how the right supported Trump after calling McCain a loser.