Did Christianity de-normalize 'Naturalism'?

[abaddon]

Awereness != spirit.

Missed the point altogether. I'm not trying to say what spirit is. I was just saying your (or mine) own personal take on what it is or isn't doesn't matter.

 

[fromderinside]

That's the spirit.......uh, Is this the exit to Cleveland?

 

[rousseau]

Starting to lean toward more of an 'otherworldly' feeling that arises from being a human being. We're so distinct from other life forms that we might just innately believe that there's something divine about ourselves. This results in a push to overcome nature, not live in harmony with it.

 

[bilby]

Starting to lean toward more of an 'otherworldly' feeling that arises from being a human being. We're so distinct from other life forms that we might just innately believe that there's something divine about ourselves. This results in a push to overcome nature, not live in harmony with it.

You can't live in harmony with nature. Nature is doing its level best to kill us all. It fails, simply because we have developed a vast array of ways to overcome nature. How long do you think you could survive in your current location without (artificial) shelter, and (artificial) clothing, and (artificial) fire?

The very idea of living 'in harmony with nature' is a luxury that can only be indulged in by people who have the (artificial) benefits of civilization.

What we can do is take steps to ensure that our success in overcoming some parts of nature, don't also lead to further problems, which we may be less able to overcome. It makes sense to stop burning coal, now that we know that doing so causes problems that we are not currently equipped to effectively mitigate. It does not make sense to dismantle society, just to avoid the burning of fossil fuels - we need to adapt, not dismantle, society, and to find new and better ways to overcome nature (such as by making our electricity out of sunshine, or uranium, or wind, or falling water).

Nature wants us dead. Nature wants everything dead - that's why evolution happened, and life is not just mats of archaean unicellular anoxic photosynthesizers and methane oxidisers. Nature isn't cuddly, it's fucking lethal, and it is out to get us all.

 

[rousseau]

Starting to lean toward more of an 'otherworldly' feeling that arises from being a human being. We're so distinct from other life forms that we might just innately believe that there's something divine about ourselves. This results in a push to overcome nature, not live in harmony with it.

You can't live in harmony with nature. Nature is doing its level best to kill us all. It fails, simply because we have developed a vast array of ways to overcome nature. How long do you think you could survive in your current location without (artificial) shelter, and (artificial) clothing, and (artificial) fire?

The very idea of living 'in harmony with nature' is a luxury that can only be indulged in by people who have the (artificial) benefits of civilization.

What we can do is take steps to ensure that our success in overcoming some parts of nature, don't also lead to further problems, which we may be less able to overcome. It makes sense to stop burning coal, now that we know that doing so causes problems that we are not currently equipped to effectively mitigate. It does not make sense to dismantle society, just to avoid the burning of fossil fuels - we need to adapt, not dismantle, society, and to find new and better ways to overcome nature (such as by making our electricity out of sunshine, or uranium, or wind, or falling water).

Nature wants us dead. Nature wants everything dead - that's why evolution happened, and life is not just mats of archaean unicellular anoxic photosynthesizers and methane oxidisers. Nature isn't cuddly, it's fucking lethal, and it is out to get us all.

Yea I figured someone was going to pick up on that. A bit of lazy thinking on my part while trying to express myself.

I guess what I'm trying to say, in the context of this thread, is that for whatever reason man just naturally sees himself as distinct from the natural world, and phenomena like religion is the result.

 

[untermensche]

Starting to lean toward more of an 'otherworldly' feeling that arises from being a human being. We're so distinct from other life forms that we might just innately believe that there's something divine about ourselves. This results in a push to overcome nature, not live in harmony with it.

There was a great deal about nature that needed overcoming. And there is nothing "otherworldly" about it.

It is overcoming THIS world and surviving in THIS world.

Once we can do this all kinds of silly dreams can be claimed to be truths. Like humans are so distinct as they defecate and fornicate and murder.

 

[rousseau]

Starting to lean toward more of an 'otherworldly' feeling that arises from being a human being. We're so distinct from other life forms that we might just innately believe that there's something divine about ourselves. This results in a push to overcome nature, not live in harmony with it.

There was a great deal about nature that needed overcoming. And there is nothing "otherworldly" about it.

It is overcoming THIS world and surviving in THIS world.

Once we can do this all kinds of silly dreams can be claimed to be truths. Like humans are so distinct as they defecate and fornicate and murder.

Seems to be an overly pessimistic view.

I think you have to start from the stand-point that for the entirety of human history almost none of us have known much of anything relevant about the world besides how to survive in it. The knowledge just wasn't available, and even when it has been it's been difficult to obtain. Hell, some of us might not even be smart enough to piece together any type of understanding of objective reality.

And so the 'dreams' that you mention are the result. Most of humanity is living a deluded life in some respect or another. It's not intentional, it's a limitation of our current age and our biology.

 

[rousseau]

I read an argument in the past few weeks that the beginnings of this 'de-normalization' actually happened during the agricultural revolution. Forget exactly how it went but from what I recall it was the beginnings of civilization, where man experienced his first separation from living directly from the land.

 

[Treedbear]

... Most creation stories depict human creation as separate from animals.

The main difference I can see is with souls. The abrahamic religions are very clear that only humans are ensouled or at least that their souls are very different. ...

I think the only reason for believing in a soul is for the continuance of life after death. I've heard that the earliest Hebrews didn't believe in either, although I don't know when it was introduced. Plato's philosophy had a major influence, no doubt. I don't think it was ever really that important for humans to see themselves as distinctly different from other animals, given our affinity for bonding with our pets as well as the way we've always anthropomorphized them in stories and fables.

 

[Under the Rose]

I read an argument in the past few weeks that the beginnings of this 'de-normalization' actually happened during the agricultural revolution. Forget exactly how it went but from what I recall it was the beginnings of civilization, where man experienced his first separation from living directly from the land.

That actually is an interesting point because prior to our ability to grow our own food for immediate and future use, we were very much forced to follow the seasons in our diet and places of residence in much of the world. Our population numbers were limited by the availability of food and shelter in precisely the same manner as other species.

As we developed tools, domestication of animals and the use of fire, our habitable range increased dramatically and once we learned to domesticate and manage plants, our capabilities became exponential.

We start to separate from nature at the point where we begin to have the ability to manipulate these several components intentionally.

 

[ruby sparks]