Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?

[coloradoatheist]

Did the extra crew have to leave exactly the time of the flight or could they have taken alternative transport even way earlier?

Did they want to piss off the FAA or the union? They could have violated FAA rules and allowed the flight crew that couldn't fly to fly anyways and face any FAA problems. Or they could have created a battle with the Union if they had used alternative transport to get the crew there. You also have the assumption that Republic Airlines had crews available at some of the potential airports to make it with minutes to spare.

- - - Updated - - -

What's the flight speed of a helicopter?

What's the flight speed of a passenger jet?

How many hours late would they be? There was little margin, the later flight would get them in too late.

The FAA rules are strict on crew rest.

Then start dropping dollar bills to get someone else out!

We keep hearing how crucial this was for United, so why didn't they act like it?

Because they followed normal airline and industry procedure. You make it sound like the Dr was the first person ever to travel on an airline and be involuntarily bumped.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What's the flight speed of a helicopter?

What's the flight speed of a passenger jet?

How many hours late would they be? There was little margin, the later flight would get them in too late.

The FAA rules are strict on crew rest.

Then start dropping dollar bills to get someone else out!

We keep hearing how crucial this was for United, so why didn't they act like it?

Because they followed normal airline and industry procedure.

Using fake cops to drag a person out of a plane is normal procedure?

You make it sound like the Dr was the first person ever to travel on an airline and be involuntarily bumped.

He was sitting on the plane.

 

[coloradoatheist]

What's the flight speed of a helicopter?

What's the flight speed of a passenger jet?

How many hours late would they be? There was little margin, the later flight would get them in too late.

The FAA rules are strict on crew rest.

Then start dropping dollar bills to get someone else out!

We keep hearing how crucial this was for United, so why didn't they act like it?

Because they followed normal airline and industry procedure.

Using fake cops to drag a person out of a plane is normal procedure?

You make it sound like the Dr was the first person ever to travel on an airline and be involuntarily bumped.

He was sitting on the plane.

They called a certified law enforcement agency.

And people in the past have bumped even after being seatted in a plane it's just not as normal as being bumped at the gate.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What's the flight speed of a helicopter?

What's the flight speed of a passenger jet?

How many hours late would they be? There was little margin, the later flight would get them in too late.

The FAA rules are strict on crew rest.

Then start dropping dollar bills to get someone else out!

We keep hearing how crucial this was for United, so why didn't they act like it?

Because they followed normal airline and industry procedure.

Using fake cops to drag a person out of a plane is normal procedure?

You make it sound like the Dr was the first person ever to travel on an airline and be involuntarily bumped.

He was sitting on the plane.

They called a certified law enforcement agency.

Dragging a person out of a plane is normal procedure?

And people in the past have bumped even after being seatted in a plane it's just not as normal as being bumped at the gate.

No shit, it isn't normal. One would say, it wasn't NORMAL PROCEDURE!!!

 

[coloradoatheist]

What's the flight speed of a helicopter?

What's the flight speed of a passenger jet?

How many hours late would they be? There was little margin, the later flight would get them in too late.

The FAA rules are strict on crew rest.

Then start dropping dollar bills to get someone else out!

We keep hearing how crucial this was for United, so why didn't they act like it?

Because they followed normal airline and industry procedure.

Using fake cops to drag a person out of a plane is normal procedure?

You make it sound like the Dr was the first person ever to travel on an airline and be involuntarily bumped.

He was sitting on the plane.

They called a certified law enforcement agency.

Dragging a person out of a plane is normal procedure?

And people in the past have bumped even after being seatted in a plane it's just not as normal as being bumped at the gate.

No shit, it isn't normal. One would say, it wasn't NORMAL PROCEDURE!!!

Of course when security shows up normally people back down and say this isn't worth getting arrested over, we'll work it out. So what is the normal procedure for police to remove someone from a confined space who is trespassing and doesn't want to leave?

But even if you do something one out of every 50,000 people but it normally works, it still would be a normal procedure, just not invoked often.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Most people aren't security. Therefore, security itself is abnormal. If I were a security person, I'd not touch someone else unless it was necessary either. So if I was called in to enforce an arbitrary limit on exchange of seat for cash, I'd be like "what, I thought this was a security threat. why are you getting me involved in your price negotiation?"

Similarly, if I was a mall cop and a store cashier called me in to remove a customer who asked for a receipt and wasn't given one, I wouldn't get involved. We do not have castes in America and property owners are not a special class of persons closely related to aristocrats. My job as a security person would be to ensure the security of the facility and its occupants, not to act as personal enforcer of would-be dictators.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Of course when security shows up normally people back down and say this isn't worth getting arrested over, we'll work it out.

Yes... because it is entirely normal for people not to dig in their heels. It never happens.

So what is the normal procedure for police to remove someone from a confined space who is trespassing and doesn't want to leave?

Oh that's right... so now it is irregular procedure from check-in to after the boarding call... but then things slip right back into "normal" once it is time to forceably drag the passenger off of the plane. What else could they have done... their hands were tied up... err... umm... while dragging the man off the plane.

But even if you do something one out of every 50,000 people but it normally works, it still would be a normal procedure, just not invoked often.

People I expect that might need to be dragged from plane... person having psychotic episode, a terrorist, a person that committed a serious crime and being taken into custody before the plane takes off, Nick Nolte. This whole he was 'trespassing' is BS black and white attempt to paint this guy as a criminal. He was told to board, he boarded. Most people expect to fly on a plane they are told to board. There was nothing "normal" about the procedure that day that led to that man getting dragged off a plane.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Most people aren't security. Therefore, security itself is abnormal. If I were a security person, I'd not touch someone else unless it was necessary either. So if I was called in to enforce an arbitrary limit on exchange of seat for cash, I'd be like "what, I thought this was a security threat. why are you getting me involved in your price negotiation?"

Similarly, if I was a mall cop and a store cashier called me in to remove a customer who asked for a receipt and wasn't given one, I wouldn't get involved. We do not have castes in America and property owners are not a special class of persons closely related to aristocrats. My job as a security person would be to ensure the security of the facility and its occupants, not to act as personal enforcer of would-be dictators.

But he was *echo*TRESPASSING*echo*. If there is a crime that all Americans can agree is worth roughing a person up over... it is trespassing. It is such a bad crime, it is even found in the Lord's Prayer.

 

[Arctish]

Most people aren't security. Therefore, security itself is abnormal. If I were a security person, I'd not touch someone else unless it was necessary either. So if I was called in to enforce an arbitrary limit on exchange of seat for cash, I'd be like "what, I thought this was a security threat. why are you getting me involved in your price negotiation?"

Similarly, if I was a mall cop and a store cashier called me in to remove a customer who asked for a receipt and wasn't given one, I wouldn't get involved. We do not have castes in America and property owners are not a special class of persons closely related to aristocrats. My job as a security person would be to ensure the security of the facility and its occupants, not to act as personal enforcer of would-be dictators.

But he was *echo*TRESPASSING*echo*. If there is a crime that all Americans can agree is worth roughing a person up over... it is trespassing. It is such a bad crime, it is even found in the Lord's Prayer.

Yeah, except that he wasn't.

Consumer rights are a matter of law, not speculation. The pertinent section was quoted in the links I reposted yesterday.

Airlines are allowed to refuse to permit boarding for a variety of reasons. But the rules change once a passenger has boarded. An airline can only remove a passenger from an aircraft under a few specific conditions, and wanting to give their seat to an airline employee isn't one of them.

United acted unlawfully by trying to take back Dr. Dao's seat without his voluntary agreement to surrender it. Dao was confirming that with his lawyer when the security guard lost his cool and unlawfully used force against him. It really is that simple.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But he was *echo*TRESPASSING*echo*. If there is a crime that all Americans can agree is worth roughing a person up over... it is trespassing. It is such a bad crime, it is even found in the Lord's Prayer.

Yeah, except that he wasn't.

Consumer rights are a matter of law, not speculation. The pertinent section was quoted in the links I reposted yesterday.

Airlines are allowed to refuse to permit boarding for a variety of reasons. But the rules change once a passenger has boarded. An airline can only remove a passenger from an aircraft under a few specific conditions, and wanting to give their seat to an airline employee isn't one of them.

United acted unlawfully by trying to take back Dr. Dao's seat without his voluntary agreement to surrender it. Dao was confirming that with his lawyer when the security guard lost his cool and unlawfully used force against him. It really is that simple.

Wait... are you claiming that the Airline didn't just give him lots of money because of altruism, but because they feared being legally liable for violating the law? I just can't believe that. Airlines are usually so giving. Every flight... a little bag of nuts or pretzels... which sometimes have spices on them that make some people need to fart.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Did the extra crew have to leave exactly the time of the flight or could they have taken alternative transport even way earlier?

Did they want to piss off the FAA or the union? They could have violated FAA rules and allowed the flight crew that couldn't fly to fly anyways and face any FAA problems. Or they could have created a battle with the Union if they had used alternative transport to get the crew there. You also have the assumption that Republic Airlines had crews available at some of the potential airports to make it with minutes to spare.

How do you know all this?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What's the flight speed of a helicopter?

What's the flight speed of a passenger jet?

How many hours late would they be? There was little margin, the later flight would get them in too late.

The FAA rules are strict on crew rest.

I see, you did pull your answer out of your ass because you made lots of assumptions about the type of helicopter and its destination.

And you pull these answers out of your ass as a self-proclaimed "moderate liberaterian" to defend the use of violence against a person when a voluntary exchange was all that was needed.

I made no assumptions about the helicopter, I simply looked at what helicopters in general can do. Helicopters are limited to 250 mph (on Earth--the limit is based on the speed of sound and thus could be different in a different atmosphere) by the very nature of their rotors. Also, most helicopters are limited to 250 mph by the FAA because they're below 18,000'.

- - - Updated - - -

What's the flight speed of a helicopter?

What's the flight speed of a passenger jet?

How many hours late would they be? There was little margin, the later flight would get them in too late.

The FAA rules are strict on crew rest.

Then start dropping dollar bills to get someone else out!

We keep hearing how crucial this was for United, so why didn't they act like it?

In the big picture that's the right answer. In the local picture, though, the people on hand didn't have the authority to do so and it's unlikely anybody with the authority was available.

- - - Updated - - -

Did the extra crew have to leave exactly the time of the flight or could they have taken alternative transport even way earlier?

Yet another question that shows you know nothing of the situation.

The problem arose because this was a last minute need due to the scheduled crew not being able to get there. If it had been known earlier the IDB would have occurred before boarding and all we would have is a moron throwing a temper tantrum in the airport.

 

[RavenSky]

Because you pulled this answer out of your ass?

What's the flight speed of a helicopter?

What's the flight speed of a passenger jet?

How many hours late would they be? There was little margin, the later flight would get them in too late.

The FAA rules are strict on crew rest.

What time did the crew need to be in place at the other location?

Don't guess. Don't pull a bullshit answer out of your ass. Provide factual evidence to answer my question.

 

[RavenSky]

What's the flight speed of a helicopter?

What's the flight speed of a passenger jet?

How many hours late would they be? There was little margin, the later flight would get them in too late.

The FAA rules are strict on crew rest.

Then start dropping dollar bills to get someone else out!

We keep hearing how crucial this was for United, so why didn't they act like it?

Because they followed normal airline and industry procedure.

Using fake cops to drag a person out of a plane is normal procedure?

You make it sound like the Dr was the first person ever to travel on an airline and be involuntarily bumped.

He was sitting on the plane.

They called a certified law enforcement agency.

Dragging a person out of a plane is normal procedure?

And people in the past have bumped even after being seatted in a plane it's just not as normal as being bumped at the gate.

No shit, it isn't normal. One would say, it wasn't NORMAL PROCEDURE!!!

Of course when security shows up normally people back down and say this isn't worth getting arrested over, we'll work it out. So what is the normal procedure for police to remove someone from a confined space who is trespassing and doesn't want to leave?

But even if you do something one out of every 50,000 people but it normally works, it still would be a normal procedure, just not invoked often.

He was not "trespassing"

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I see, you did pull your answer out of your ass because you made lots of assumptions about the type of helicopter and its destination.

And you pull these answers out of your ass as a self-proclaimed "moderate liberaterian" to defend the use of violence against a person when a voluntary exchange was all that was needed.

I made no assumptions about the helicopter, I simply looked at what helicopters in general can do. Helicopters are limited to 250 mph (on Earth--the limit is based on the speed of sound and thus could be different in a different atmosphere) by the very nature of their rotors. Also, most helicopters are limited to 250 mph by the FAA because they're below 18,000'.

- - - Updated - - -

What's the flight speed of a helicopter?

What's the flight speed of a passenger jet?

How many hours late would they be? There was little margin, the later flight would get them in too late.

The FAA rules are strict on crew rest.

Then start dropping dollar bills to get someone else out!

We keep hearing how crucial this was for United, so why didn't they act like it?

In the big picture that's the right answer. In the local picture, though, the people on hand didn't have the authority to do so and it's unlikely anybody with the authority was available.

- - - Updated - - -

Did the extra crew have to leave exactly the time of the flight or could they have taken alternative transport even way earlier?

Yet another question that shows you know nothing of the situation.

The problem arose because this was a last minute need due to the scheduled crew not being able to get there. If it had been known earlier the IDB would have occurred before boarding and all we would have is a moron throwing a temper tantrum in the airport.

You are making an assumption. Given their stupidity and entitlement as shown in the case in general they could easily have known way sooner.

 

[laughing dog]

I made no assumptions about the helicopter, I simply looked at what helicopters in general can do. Helicopters are limited to 250 mph (on Earth--the limit is based on the speed of sound and thus could be different in a different atmosphere) by the very nature of their rotors. Also, most helicopters are limited to 250 mph by the FAA because they're below 18,000'.

You made an assumption about the destination of the helocopter - you assumed it would take them to their ultimate destination instead of any alternative airport for a flight. And you assumed that another crew could not be flown in from a closer location. As usual, you simply pulled another set of assumptions right out of your ass that best fits your position and ignored any other possibility in order to defend the unnecessary use of violence.

The reality is that UA screwed up. They could have made an offer that someone would have taken to leave the plane, but they did not. It really is that simple. It was UA's duty to have the right people around to make those decisions.

This avoidable situation arose because UA screwed up, and they resorted to the unnecessary use of violence.

 

[coloradoatheist]

What's the flight speed of a helicopter?

What's the flight speed of a passenger jet?

How many hours late would they be? There was little margin, the later flight would get them in too late.

The FAA rules are strict on crew rest.

What time did the crew need to be in place at the other location?

Don't guess. Don't pull a bullshit answer out of your ass. Provide factual evidence to answer my question.

The flight the crew was supposed to be on was the 6:08 am flight out of Louisville. For a 9 hour rest time for non flying members that's 9:08 pm that they had to arrive in Louisville. Flight 3341 was supposed to arrive at 8:02 pm. That was only an hour spare time. So are you saying they in that hour that they had extra they could find an alternate transport within an hour that would get there in the same time that flight 3341 would take?

 

[coloradoatheist]

I made no assumptions about the helicopter, I simply looked at what helicopters in general can do. Helicopters are limited to 250 mph (on Earth--the limit is based on the speed of sound and thus could be different in a different atmosphere) by the very nature of their rotors. Also, most helicopters are limited to 250 mph by the FAA because they're below 18,000'.

- - - Updated - - -

What's the flight speed of a helicopter?

What's the flight speed of a passenger jet?

How many hours late would they be? There was little margin, the later flight would get them in too late.

The FAA rules are strict on crew rest.

Then start dropping dollar bills to get someone else out!

We keep hearing how crucial this was for United, so why didn't they act like it?

In the big picture that's the right answer. In the local picture, though, the people on hand didn't have the authority to do so and it's unlikely anybody with the authority was available.

- - - Updated - - -

Did the extra crew have to leave exactly the time of the flight or could they have taken alternative transport even way earlier?

Yet another question that shows you know nothing of the situation.

The problem arose because this was a last minute need due to the scheduled crew not being able to get there. If it had been known earlier the IDB would have occurred before boarding and all we would have is a moron throwing a temper tantrum in the airport.

You are making an assumption. Given their stupidity and entitlement as shown in the case in general they could easily have known way sooner.

So the flight the crew that was supposed to work the next morning flight was supposed to leave at 2:55 pm, three hours prior to the doctor's flight. It was delayed because of mechanical failure and it was unknown when it would work. When the delay became too much they had to call in the reserve to get to Louisville on the flight with about an hour of spare time for what they could work. So theoritically they had an extra 3 hours but it was unknown and that had a crazy assumption that Republic had a crew that was standing by in an airport that could get to Louisville in time. And it's under the assumption that flight wasn't full too.

 

[coloradoatheist]

He was not "trespassing"

If an entity or a person owns a property and the remove the permission to be on the property and that person is informed they need to leave the property and they don't, that's trespassing.

 

[DBT]

Paying for a seat on a flight entitles one to occupy that seat for the duration of the flight. If the business has accepted your money and you occupy the seat, you are entitled to that seat. You cannot be physically removed unless you yourself are causing a disturbance, being violent, etc, otherwise nobody has the right to physically remove you from your seat (paid for and accepted by the business), to do so is a case of assault.

The only option the airline management had was to offer ever higher reward in order to induce someone to accept the offer and vacate their seat willingly.

They offered some reward, but stopped far too soon, then took the wrong option; physically assaulting a passenger.