Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?

[laughing dog]

We've been through this before. Pulling suggestions out of your ass doesn't make them viable.

There's no point in sending the crew by helicopter, they wouldn't be legal to fly the plane at that point.

Because you pulled this answer out of your ass?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In other airline news.

In other airline news.

While any case is wrong, four cases over the period of a year warrants an advisory? That seems a bit much.

I suspect case #1 is being badly represented--not that he responded, but how he responded.

Case #2 sounds like she got FAMed. It's prone to happening if you book the first row in first class and the airline is not allowed to tell you what happened (to tell you what happened would be to reveal that the person in that seat is an air marshal, something they are not allowed to do) so it will look arbitrary.

I know of case #3--the pilot didn't want a troublemaker on the plane. She made a big discrimination issue out of an error.

Case #4 doesn't make sense. There are two possible interpretations here:
1) It's normal checked baggage. She will get it back at the carousel or the luggage office.
2) It's gate-checked (very common for strollers). She will get it back at the jetway.
In neither case will she get it back on board, thus demanding it before she disembarks is nonsense. This isn't racism, this is an entitled idiot not getting special service.

If the discrimination problem was real they wouldn't be clutching at straws like this to find discrimination.

 

[Elixir]

He never needed to be arrested. In order to commit a crime, you actually have to be aware that you are actually committing one.

<derail alert>

You'd think that would be the case, but -
A friend was drunk, and asked me to drive him home in his own car. I assented (it was a nice vintage mercedes two-seater). As soon as I pulled out onto the street, a cop pulled me over. He gave me a ticket for my friend's expired registration. (Turned out he and my friend had a long-running feud over I don't know what).
Instead of just paying the ticket I showed up in court and when asked to enter a plea, I asked for permission to query the judge. Granted.
"Your honor, should my choice to enter a plea of guilty or not guilty be based on whether I harbor guilt over the act that resulted in my being ticketed, or on whether I technically violated a statute, even if unknowingly?"
The judge spent a good 6-8 seconds pondering this deep question, then -
"Look, just enter your plea. Do you want to ask for a trial, or do you want to pay the $50?" He was visibly annoyed, and seeing that, I didn't thing a trial would go well.
Picture the collective sigh of relief from the 60-80 offenders queued up for hours in the traffic courtroom and down the hall, as I grudgingly muttered... "I'll just pay it.."

</derail>

 

[coloradoatheist]

He never needed to be arrested. In order to commit a crime, you actually have to be aware that you are actually committing one.

<derail alert>

You'd think that would be the case, but -
A friend was drunk, and asked me to drive him home in his own car. I assented (it was a nice vintage mercedes two-seater). As soon as I pulled out onto the street, a cop pulled me over. He gave me a ticket for my friend's expired registration. (Turned out he and my friend had a long-running feud over I don't know what).
Instead of just paying the ticket I showed up in court and when asked to enter a plea, I asked for permission to query the judge. Granted.
"Your honor, should my choice to enter a plea of guilty or not guilty be based on whether I harbor guilt over the act that resulted in my being ticketed, or on whether I technically violated a statute, even if unknowingly?"
The judge spent a good 6-8 seconds pondering this deep question, then -
"Look, just enter your plea. Do you want to ask for a trial, or do you want to pay the $50?" He was visibly annoyed, and seeing that, I didn't thing a trial would go well.
Picture the collective sigh of relief from the 60-80 offenders queued up for hours in the traffic courtroom and down the hall, as I grudgingly muttered... "I'll just pay it.."

</derail>

Correct. As they say ignorance of the law is not an excuse. But he was taking a big risk when somebody asked him to leave their property and got lucky that the security firm was only quasi police and still debated by the police in that union.

 

[LordKiran]

He never needed to be arrested. In order to commit a crime, you actually have to be aware that you are actually committing one.

<derail alert>

You'd think that would be the case, but -
A friend was drunk, and asked me to drive him home in his own car. I assented (it was a nice vintage mercedes two-seater). As soon as I pulled out onto the street, a cop pulled me over. He gave me a ticket for my friend's expired registration. (Turned out he and my friend had a long-running feud over I don't know what).
Instead of just paying the ticket I showed up in court and when asked to enter a plea, I asked for permission to query the judge. Granted.
"Your honor, should my choice to enter a plea of guilty or not guilty be based on whether I harbor guilt over the act that resulted in my being ticketed, or on whether I technically violated a statute, even if unknowingly?"
The judge spent a good 6-8 seconds pondering this deep question, then -
"Look, just enter your plea. Do you want to ask for a trial, or do you want to pay the $50?" He was visibly annoyed, and seeing that, I didn't thing a trial would go well.
Picture the collective sigh of relief from the 60-80 offenders queued up for hours in the traffic courtroom and down the hall, as I grudgingly muttered... "I'll just pay it.."

</derail>

Should have sued your friend immediately afterward for recompense.

 

[bilby]

<derail alert>

You'd think that would be the case, but -
A friend was drunk, and asked me to drive him home in his own car. I assented (it was a nice vintage mercedes two-seater). As soon as I pulled out onto the street, a cop pulled me over. He gave me a ticket for my friend's expired registration. (Turned out he and my friend had a long-running feud over I don't know what).
Instead of just paying the ticket I showed up in court and when asked to enter a plea, I asked for permission to query the judge. Granted.
"Your honor, should my choice to enter a plea of guilty or not guilty be based on whether I harbor guilt over the act that resulted in my being ticketed, or on whether I technically violated a statute, even if unknowingly?"
The judge spent a good 6-8 seconds pondering this deep question, then -
"Look, just enter your plea. Do you want to ask for a trial, or do you want to pay the $50?" He was visibly annoyed, and seeing that, I didn't thing a trial would go well.
Picture the collective sigh of relief from the 60-80 offenders queued up for hours in the traffic courtroom and down the hall, as I grudgingly muttered... "I'll just pay it.."

</derail>

Should have sued your friend immediately afterward for recompense.

How very American.

In the civilized world, people don't sue their friends. He should pay you back without any involvement from the legal system. Probably in beer.

 

[LordKiran]

<derail alert>

You'd think that would be the case, but -
A friend was drunk, and asked me to drive him home in his own car. I assented (it was a nice vintage mercedes two-seater). As soon as I pulled out onto the street, a cop pulled me over. He gave me a ticket for my friend's expired registration. (Turned out he and my friend had a long-running feud over I don't know what).
Instead of just paying the ticket I showed up in court and when asked to enter a plea, I asked for permission to query the judge. Granted.
"Your honor, should my choice to enter a plea of guilty or not guilty be based on whether I harbor guilt over the act that resulted in my being ticketed, or on whether I technically violated a statute, even if unknowingly?"
The judge spent a good 6-8 seconds pondering this deep question, then -
"Look, just enter your plea. Do you want to ask for a trial, or do you want to pay the $50?" He was visibly annoyed, and seeing that, I didn't thing a trial would go well.
Picture the collective sigh of relief from the 60-80 offenders queued up for hours in the traffic courtroom and down the hall, as I grudgingly muttered... "I'll just pay it.."

</derail>

Correct. As they say ignorance of the law is not an excuse. But he was taking a big risk when somebody asked him to leave their property and got lucky that the security firm was only quasi police and still debated by the police in that union.

There is no such thing as quasi-police. You're either police or you're not.

 

[bilby]

Correct. As they say ignorance of the law is not an excuse. But he was taking a big risk when somebody asked him to leave their property and got lucky that the security firm was only quasi police and still debated by the police in that union.

There is no such thing as quasi-police. You're either police or you're not.

That's easy for you to say; Who made YOU the 'quasi' police?

 

[Elixir]

Should have sued your friend immediately afterward for recompense.

How very American.

In the civilized world, people don't sue their friends. He should pay you back without any involvement from the legal system. Probably in beer.

Oh he paid me back all right - $50 and a legally registered 230SL for a month or so. But I never got an answer to my question to the judge.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Correct. As they say ignorance of the law is not an excuse. But he was taking a big risk when somebody asked him to leave their property and got lucky that the security firm was only quasi police and still debated by the police in that union.

There is no such thing as quasi-police. You're either police or you're not.

The department was certified as the state as being a law enforcement agency. That certification was removed after the incident.

 

[bilby]

There is no such thing as quasi-police. You're either police or you're not.

The department was certified as the state as being a law enforcement agency. That certification was removed after the incident.

All the more reason to consolidate police forces in the USA to no more than 60 entities - 1 per state, plus a handful of federal and specialist* forces.

Indeed, fewer than 50 would probably be sensible - many of the low population or small geographic area states could easily benefit from having a single force - for example one police force for both Dakotas would make sense; or a New England force with responsibility for all of Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Connecticut.

Certainly you do yourselves no favours by having almost 18,000 (sic) police forces.




*Such as Military Police, or a diplomatic protection service similar to the existing Secret Service

 

[Elixir]

All the more reason to consolidate police forces in the USA to no more than 60 entities - 1 per state, plus a handful of federal and specialist* forces.

It's over the top. We have a BPA with DHS. When we got into it I understood that it included Secret Service and Customs & Border Protection. Now I know better - here's an abbreviated list:
Department of Homeland Security (DHS)

CBP Officers and Border Patrol Agents
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC)
National Protection and Programs Directorate,
Federal Protective Service (FPS)
United States Coast Guard (USCG)
Coast Guard Investigative Service (CGIS)
United States Coast Guard Police (CGPD)
United States Customs and Border Protection (CBP)
Office of Air and Marine (OAM)
Office of Border Patrol (OBP)
Office of Field Operations (OFO)
Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)
Mount Weather Emergency Operations Center (MWEOC) Police
Office of Chief Security Officer (OCSO)
United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)
Enforcement Removal Operations (ERO)
Homeland Security Investigations (HSI)
Office of Intelligence
Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR)
United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS)
United States Secret Service (USSS)
Transportation Security Administration (TSA)
Office of Law Enforcement (OLE)
Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS)
Office of Inspection (OI)
Department of Homeland Security Office of Inspector General (DHSOIG)

Those are all law enforcement agencies operating under the DHS umbrella.

Certainly you do yourselves no favours by having almost 18,000 (sic) police forces.

It certainly favors our Company! Each of those 18,000 (that's the estimate for police and sheriff departments only) is a potential or actual customer.

 

[LordKiran]

It's over the top. We have a BPA with DHS. When we got into it I understood that it included Secret Service and Customs & Border Protection. Now I know better - here's an abbreviated list:
Department of Homeland Security (DHS)

CBP Officers and Border Patrol Agents
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC)
National Protection and Programs Directorate,
Federal Protective Service (FPS)
United States Coast Guard (USCG)
Coast Guard Investigative Service (CGIS)
United States Coast Guard Police (CGPD)
United States Customs and Border Protection (CBP)
Office of Air and Marine (OAM)
Office of Border Patrol (OBP)
Office of Field Operations (OFO)
Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)
Mount Weather Emergency Operations Center (MWEOC) Police
Office of Chief Security Officer (OCSO)
United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)
Enforcement Removal Operations (ERO)
Homeland Security Investigations (HSI)
Office of Intelligence
Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR)
United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS)
United States Secret Service (USSS)
Transportation Security Administration (TSA)
Office of Law Enforcement (OLE)
Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS)
Office of Inspection (OI)
Department of Homeland Security Office of Inspector General (DHSOIG)

Those are all law enforcement agencies operating under the DHS umbrella.

Certainly you do yourselves no favours by having almost 18,000 (sic) police forces.

It certainly favors our Company! Each of those 18,000 (that's the estimate for police and sheriff departments only) is a potential or actual customer.

I think a better idea would be to make the job of police officer require an local confirmation by the people he or she would police. This would certainly help in places like Fergesun.

Plus it sets the right precedent. "You police, but only because we say so."

 

[bilby]

It's over the top. We have a BPA with DHS. When we got into it I understood that it included Secret Service and Customs & Border Protection. Now I know better - here's an abbreviated list:
Department of Homeland Security (DHS)

CBP Officers and Border Patrol Agents
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC)
National Protection and Programs Directorate,
Federal Protective Service (FPS)
United States Coast Guard (USCG)
Coast Guard Investigative Service (CGIS)
United States Coast Guard Police (CGPD)
United States Customs and Border Protection (CBP)
Office of Air and Marine (OAM)
Office of Border Patrol (OBP)
Office of Field Operations (OFO)
Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)
Mount Weather Emergency Operations Center (MWEOC) Police
Office of Chief Security Officer (OCSO)
United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)
Enforcement Removal Operations (ERO)
Homeland Security Investigations (HSI)
Office of Intelligence
Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR)
United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS)
United States Secret Service (USSS)
Transportation Security Administration (TSA)
Office of Law Enforcement (OLE)
Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS)
Office of Inspection (OI)
Department of Homeland Security Office of Inspector General (DHSOIG)

Those are all law enforcement agencies operating under the DHS umbrella.



It certainly favors our Company! Each of those 18,000 (that's the estimate for police and sheriff departments only) is a potential or actual customer.

I think a better idea would be to make the job of police officer require an local confirmation by the people he or she would police. This would certainly help in places like Fergesun.

Plus it sets the right precedent. "You police, but only because we say so."

What you need is some fresh new thinking; Like this, from 1829:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We've been through this before. Pulling suggestions out of your ass doesn't make them viable.

There's no point in sending the crew by helicopter, they wouldn't be legal to fly the plane at that point.

Because you pulled this answer out of your ass?

What's the flight speed of a helicopter?

What's the flight speed of a passenger jet?

How many hours late would they be? There was little margin, the later flight would get them in too late.

The FAA rules are strict on crew rest.

 

[Arctish]

Most of the current discussion revolves around issues that were addressed in the first couple of days following the incident.

Regarding passenger rights, these links have already been posted:

Air law expert in Philly says United was dead wrong

United Airlines Cites Wrong Rule For Illegally De-Boarding Passenger

United screwed up. It stopped short of offering enough compensation to get a fourth person to voluntarily give up their seat. Instead, United chose to pursue an unlawful course of action and force someone off the aircraft.

Airport security screwed up. They had no authority to force Dao off the plane but acted as though they did. One of them assaulted Dao, wrenched him from his seat, and dragged him down the aisle. Even if Dao hadn't been injured, it would still have been an unlawful use of force.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Now, now. Let's remember that Dao hurt himself. The security officers were just innocent bystanders.

Really, if they hadn't been there to restrain him, his flailing around and smashing himself into the seats would give been much worse. They're the heroes here.

 

[laughing dog]

Because you pulled this answer out of your ass?

What's the flight speed of a helicopter?

What's the flight speed of a passenger jet?

How many hours late would they be? There was little margin, the later flight would get them in too late.

The FAA rules are strict on crew rest.

I see, you did pull your answer out of your ass because you made lots of assumptions about the type of helicopter and its destination.

And you pull these answers out of your ass as a self-proclaimed "moderate liberaterian" to defend the use of violence against a person when a voluntary exchange was all that was needed.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Because you pulled this answer out of your ass?

What's the flight speed of a helicopter?

What's the flight speed of a passenger jet?

How many hours late would they be? There was little margin, the later flight would get them in too late.

The FAA rules are strict on crew rest.

Then start dropping dollar bills to get someone else out!

We keep hearing how crucial this was for United, so why didn't they act like it?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Did the extra crew have to leave exactly the time of the flight or could they have taken alternative transport even way earlier?