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Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?

Oh... a reverse auction. Okay passengers, we need one more seat for the ass of an employee. I am authorized to offer up to $4000 for the seat. Show me your hand if you are interested in the compensation? Okay, 14 of you. Now, how many for $3000? Alright, 11, we are making progress. How about $2500...

Knowing how competitive people can get, United would likely be able to buy off the last seat for a Buy One-Get One half off coupon for a Whopper at Burger King.

Some airlines ask you when checking in if you would give up your seat and for how much. But person DoT rules they only have to offer up to 4x times the one way fare so that will be limit. They just make the decision earlier. United changed their internal rules so dead-heads have to check in at least an hour prior to the flight. So if they are late, they are late.

- - - Updated - - -

And there is contention on whether or not the Department of Aviation overstepped their bounds in determing that. I haven't seen anything lately about the police officers lawsuit against them.

But for United it doesn't matter. Internally it might.

How in the heck would the Chicago Department of Aviation overstep their bounds by determining whether their own sub-department is a legally constituted police force?

The argument is who authorized the force and pays for it. The argument is that the City of Chicago and city council authorized the force and pay for it. There were hearings in October but haven't seen a decision yet.

- - - Updated - - -

There are two issues. The night that it happened. And in the future. The solution going forward is bump people earlier and if delays happen, they happen.

Okay, fine, let's pretend there are two issues.

#1. "The night that it happened." Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger? Any answer other than "yes," with any other stipulations or right-wing baggage is too much. Just write "yes."

#2. "And in the future." Regardless of your plans, suppose in the future someone is seated on the plane and airline industry corporation wants to get their ticket for an employee. Seated passenger doesn't want to leave their seat. There are other passengers some of whom may want to leave for more money. Does United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?


For number 1. There isn't going to be a major industry and company policy shift for a one in a billion item. So they had two real options per policy. Do what they did. Take the delay the next day if they can't make it.

If I was on the flight and someone offered $20K to take the bump, I'd do it. Likewise, other persons would do it for much less. Exactly how much less may depend on the people present. Would it be $5K, $3K, $1K? So, the option you keep ignoring is letting free market exchange happen.

So, to the question "Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?" the answer is yes.
 
Some airlines ask you when checking in if you would give up your seat and for how much. But person DoT rules they only have to offer up to 4x times the one way fare so that will be limit. They just make the decision earlier. United changed their internal rules so dead-heads have to check in at least an hour prior to the flight. So if they are late, they are late.

- - - Updated - - -

And there is contention on whether or not the Department of Aviation overstepped their bounds in determing that. I haven't seen anything lately about the police officers lawsuit against them.

But for United it doesn't matter. Internally it might.

How in the heck would the Chicago Department of Aviation overstep their bounds by determining whether their own sub-department is a legally constituted police force?

The argument is who authorized the force and pays for it. The argument is that the City of Chicago and city council authorized the force and pay for it. There were hearings in October but haven't seen a decision yet.

- - - Updated - - -

There are two issues. The night that it happened. And in the future. The solution going forward is bump people earlier and if delays happen, they happen.

Okay, fine, let's pretend there are two issues.

#1. "The night that it happened." Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger? Any answer other than "yes," with any other stipulations or right-wing baggage is too much. Just write "yes."

#2. "And in the future." Regardless of your plans, suppose in the future someone is seated on the plane and airline industry corporation wants to get their ticket for an employee. Seated passenger doesn't want to leave their seat. There are other passengers some of whom may want to leave for more money. Does United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?


For number 1. There isn't going to be a major industry and company policy shift for a one in a billion item. So they had two real options per policy. Do what they did. Take the delay the next day if they can't make it.

If I was on the flight and someone offered $20K to take the bump, I'd do it. Likewise, other persons would do it for much less. Exactly how much less may depend on the people present. Would it be $5K, $3K, $1K? So, the option you keep ignoring is letting free market exchange happen.

So, to the question "Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?" the answer is yes.


Yes at some point, but the airlines isn't there just to make everyone happy and they actually have to make money on flights. And by law they only have to pay 4x times a fare so on that flight it was less than $800.
 
Some airlines ask you when checking in if you would give up your seat and for how much. But person DoT rules they only have to offer up to 4x times the one way fare so that will be limit. They just make the decision earlier. United changed their internal rules so dead-heads have to check in at least an hour prior to the flight. So if they are late, they are late.

- - - Updated - - -

And there is contention on whether or not the Department of Aviation overstepped their bounds in determing that. I haven't seen anything lately about the police officers lawsuit against them.

But for United it doesn't matter. Internally it might.

How in the heck would the Chicago Department of Aviation overstep their bounds by determining whether their own sub-department is a legally constituted police force?

The argument is who authorized the force and pays for it. The argument is that the City of Chicago and city council authorized the force and pay for it. There were hearings in October but haven't seen a decision yet.

- - - Updated - - -

There are two issues. The night that it happened. And in the future. The solution going forward is bump people earlier and if delays happen, they happen.

Okay, fine, let's pretend there are two issues.

#1. "The night that it happened." Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger? Any answer other than "yes," with any other stipulations or right-wing baggage is too much. Just write "yes."

#2. "And in the future." Regardless of your plans, suppose in the future someone is seated on the plane and airline industry corporation wants to get their ticket for an employee. Seated passenger doesn't want to leave their seat. There are other passengers some of whom may want to leave for more money. Does United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?


For number 1. There isn't going to be a major industry and company policy shift for a one in a billion item. So they had two real options per policy. Do what they did. Take the delay the next day if they can't make it.

If I was on the flight and someone offered $20K to take the bump, I'd do it. Likewise, other persons would do it for much less. Exactly how much less may depend on the people present. Would it be $5K, $3K, $1K? So, the option you keep ignoring is letting free market exchange happen.

So, to the question "Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?" the answer is yes.


Yes at some point, but the airlines isn't there just to make everyone happy and they actually have to make money on flights. And by law they only have to pay 4x times a fare so on that flight it was less than $800.

The law in no way constrains UA or any other airline from offering more than the minimum required compensation.

There is no ceiling set by law; the only entity that sets a ceiling is UA themselves. And if it's their internal rule, they have every right to disregard it as and when it is reasonable or expedient to do so.

The clerk at the gate cannot change the rule; but UA certainly can, and should have. It's the fact that they didn't that is the entire cause of this clusterfuck.
 
I will add that in response to this: "And by law they only have to pay 4x times a fare so on that flight it was less than $800."--the airline probably set that arbitrary limit up by writing it into law with the pro-corporate government...not that there is a huge problem with being somewhat pro-corporate...but letting them write the laws and then refer to them as some kind limit when it's actual not a limit and just arbitrary is either naive or logically circular.
 
Some airlines ask you when checking in if you would give up your seat and for how much. But person DoT rules they only have to offer up to 4x times the one way fare so that will be limit. They just make the decision earlier. United changed their internal rules so dead-heads have to check in at least an hour prior to the flight. So if they are late, they are late.

- - - Updated - - -

And there is contention on whether or not the Department of Aviation overstepped their bounds in determing that. I haven't seen anything lately about the police officers lawsuit against them.

But for United it doesn't matter. Internally it might.

How in the heck would the Chicago Department of Aviation overstep their bounds by determining whether their own sub-department is a legally constituted police force?

The argument is who authorized the force and pays for it. The argument is that the City of Chicago and city council authorized the force and pay for it. There were hearings in October but haven't seen a decision yet.

- - - Updated - - -

There are two issues. The night that it happened. And in the future. The solution going forward is bump people earlier and if delays happen, they happen.

Okay, fine, let's pretend there are two issues.

#1. "The night that it happened." Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger? Any answer other than "yes," with any other stipulations or right-wing baggage is too much. Just write "yes."

#2. "And in the future." Regardless of your plans, suppose in the future someone is seated on the plane and airline industry corporation wants to get their ticket for an employee. Seated passenger doesn't want to leave their seat. There are other passengers some of whom may want to leave for more money. Does United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?


For number 1. There isn't going to be a major industry and company policy shift for a one in a billion item. So they had two real options per policy. Do what they did. Take the delay the next day if they can't make it.

If I was on the flight and someone offered $20K to take the bump, I'd do it. Likewise, other persons would do it for much less. Exactly how much less may depend on the people present. Would it be $5K, $3K, $1K? So, the option you keep ignoring is letting free market exchange happen.

So, to the question "Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?" the answer is yes.


Yes at some point, but the airlines isn't there just to make everyone happy and they actually have to make money on flights. And by law they only have to pay 4x times a fare so on that flight it was less than $800.

The law in no way constrains UA or any other airline from offering more than the minimum required compensation.

There is no ceiling set by law; the only entity that sets a ceiling is UA themselves. And if it's their internal rule, they have every right to disregard it as and when it is reasonable or expedient to do so.

The clerk at the gate cannot change the rule; but UA certainly can, and should have. It's the fact that they didn't that is the entire cause of this clusterfuck.

Since the settlement was supposedly over $10 million they could have offered up to $9,999,999 and been better off. But they aren't going to do that just based on what could be a wild fantasy. They were following standard procedures that all airlines followed and it was bad luck for them that security forgot to put up the arm rest on the other chair.
 
They were following standard procedures that all airlines followed and it was bad luck for them that security forgot to put up the arm rest on the other chair.

Please submit Standard Operating Procedures from United Airline where it describes method to remove passenger from plane after they do not agree to be bumped from their seat.
 
Since the settlement was supposedly over $10 million they could have offered up to $9,999,999 and been better off. But they aren't going to do that just based on what could be a wild fantasy. They were following standard procedures that all airlines followed and it was bad luck for them that security forgot to put up the arm rest on the other chair.

That's a terrible risk assessment.
 
They were following standard procedures that all airlines followed and it was bad luck for them that security forgot to put up the arm rest on the other chair.

Please submit Standard Operating Procedures from United Airline where it describes method to remove passenger from plane after they do not agree to be bumped from their seat.

all I have on that one is that the Supervisory called United Control who then said they would call authorities to talk to the person.

- - - Updated - - -

Since the settlement was supposedly over $10 million they could have offered up to $9,999,999 and been better off. But they aren't going to do that just based on what could be a wild fantasy. They were following standard procedures that all airlines followed and it was bad luck for them that security forgot to put up the arm rest on the other chair.

That's a terrible risk assessment.


Why? Most people act like adults and say things suck and move on instead of throwing a tantrum.
 
...all I have on that one is that the Supervisory called United Control who then said they would call authorities to talk to the person.

Why did they need mall cops to "talk to" someone since mall cops typically aren't good at that and they already had actual people on the ground talking to him?
 
Some airlines ask you when checking in if you would give up your seat and for how much. But person DoT rules they only have to offer up to 4x times the one way fare so that will be limit. They just make the decision earlier. United changed their internal rules so dead-heads have to check in at least an hour prior to the flight. So if they are late, they are late.

- - - Updated - - -

And there is contention on whether or not the Department of Aviation overstepped their bounds in determing that. I haven't seen anything lately about the police officers lawsuit against them.

But for United it doesn't matter. Internally it might.

How in the heck would the Chicago Department of Aviation overstep their bounds by determining whether their own sub-department is a legally constituted police force?

The argument is who authorized the force and pays for it. The argument is that the City of Chicago and city council authorized the force and pay for it. There were hearings in October but haven't seen a decision yet.

- - - Updated - - -

There are two issues. The night that it happened. And in the future. The solution going forward is bump people earlier and if delays happen, they happen.

Okay, fine, let's pretend there are two issues.

#1. "The night that it happened." Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger? Any answer other than "yes," with any other stipulations or right-wing baggage is too much. Just write "yes."

#2. "And in the future." Regardless of your plans, suppose in the future someone is seated on the plane and airline industry corporation wants to get their ticket for an employee. Seated passenger doesn't want to leave their seat. There are other passengers some of whom may want to leave for more money. Does United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?


For number 1. There isn't going to be a major industry and company policy shift for a one in a billion item. So they had two real options per policy. Do what they did. Take the delay the next day if they can't make it.

If I was on the flight and someone offered $20K to take the bump, I'd do it. Likewise, other persons would do it for much less. Exactly how much less may depend on the people present. Would it be $5K, $3K, $1K? So, the option you keep ignoring is letting free market exchange happen.

So, to the question "Did United Airlines have any other choice than to eject that passenger?" the answer is yes.


Yes at some point, but the airlines isn't there just to make everyone happy and they actually have to make money on flights. And by law they only have to pay 4x times a fare so on that flight it was less than $800.

The law in no way constrains UA or any other airline from offering more than the minimum required compensation.

There is no ceiling set by law; the only entity that sets a ceiling is UA themselves. And if it's their internal rule, they have every right to disregard it as and when it is reasonable or expedient to do so.

The clerk at the gate cannot change the rule; but UA certainly can, and should have. It's the fact that they didn't that is the entire cause of this clusterfuck.

Since the settlement was supposedly over $10 million they could have offered up to $9,999,999 and been better off.
Do you even read what you post?
 
It's interesting that the two people posting in this thread most closely aligned with the Libertarian position are the same two people who think that the 'adult' thing to do is immediately surrender to an authority figure regardless of your rights so that a business can violate the terms of a contract.
 
It's interesting that the two people posting in this thread most closely aligned with the Libertarian position are the same two people who think that the 'adult' thing to do is immediately surrender to an authority figure regardless of your rights so that a business can violate the terms of a contract.

Interesting is one word for it...
 
It's interesting that the two people posting in this thread most closely aligned with the Libertarian position are the same two people who think that the 'adult' thing to do is immediately surrender to an authority figure regardless of your rights so that a business can violate the terms of a contract.
They aren't saying to cede to the airport police because the airport police say to. They are saying that the property owner of the plane are infallible gods and their commands shall be followed! Libertarians (the true ones) believe in no holier position of authority than the property owner.
 
...all I have on that one is that the Supervisory called United Control who then said they would call authorities to talk to the person.

Why did they need mall cops to "talk to" someone since mall cops typically aren't good at that and they already had actual people on the ground talking to him?

But United didn't see them as mall cops, they saw them as the airport authority to handle that issue.
 
But to be a lease license it has to to have certain conditions which aren't on a CoC. But you do need it to act like a lease license because [snip] you have nothing else.
FIFY!

If you are still yapping about your football stadium case, that is not remotely applicable, and I already spent a substantial amount of time politely explaining (with citations) why.

I just went back and looked at it and you went off on a wrong tangent. You completely missed several paragraphs in the middle of the case that talked about how a single game ticket was a license in the courts eyes.
1. No it didn't.
2. If there was a specific passage you wanted to hang your hat on, you should have quoted it

The specificially mentioned sport events, concerts, and movies. The traditional case was for a movie theatre kicking someone out and that they had to refund the ticket.
Not an airline and not for analogous reasons


Loren is wrong and so are you. I've already demonstrated why multiple times.

We are talking about something else here, not this case for this argument. If in general I own property I have the right to kick someone off my property if I un-invite them.
Ah... so you and Loren are derailing the thread in an effort to distract everyone else from the weakness of your arguments. Got it.
 
Please submit Standard Operating Procedures from United Airline where it describes method to remove passenger from plane after they do not agree to be bumped from their seat.

all I have on that one is that the Supervisory called United Control who then said they would call authorities to talk to the person.

"talk to the person"

So, to be clear, you are confirming that your claim
They were following standard procedures that all airlines followed
is false.

- - - Updated - - -

It's interesting that the two people posting in this thread most closely aligned with the Libertarian position are the same two people who think that the 'adult' thing to do is immediately surrender to an authority figure regardless of your rights so that a business can violate the terms of a contract.

^^^^ That
 
Here is the relevant section in the New England Patriot Case

nitially, we consider how tickets to sporting and other entertainment events have been treated in the past. As the District Court recognized, New Jersey has generally followed a so-called “license” approach.1 In Shubert v. Nixon Amusement Co., 83 A. 369 (N.J.Sup.Ct.1912), the old New Jersey Supreme Court considered a tort action filed by a plaintiff who, together with his friends, was ejected from a theater even though they had already taken their seats,2 id. at 369. In considering this action, the court turned to prior case law, especially the Court of Exchequer's leading decision in Wood v. Leadbitter, (1845) 153 Eng. Rep. 351 (Exch.). Relying, inter alia, on this English decision, the Shubert court repeatedly indicated that a ticket provides a patron with nothing more than a revocable license. Shubert, 83 A. at 369-71. For instance, it quoted, with approval, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court's finding “that ‘a theater ticket is to be regarded as a mere license, for the revocation of which before the holder has actually been given his seat, and has taken it, the only remedy is in assumpsit for a breach of contract.’ “ Id. at 370 (quoting Horney v. Nixon, 61 A. 1088, 1090 (Pa.1905)). While referring in passing to the “natural justice or injustice” of the defendant's actions, the New Jersey Supreme Court ultimately ruled that the well-established “license” rule barred the plaintiff's tort action even though he had already taken his seat in the theater before being asked to leave. Id. at 371.

It appears that this “license” approach has, for some time, been followed throughout the United States and in other common law jurisdictions throughout the world. For example, the United States Supreme Court, in a decision written by Justice Holmes considering the exclusion from a race track of a ticket-holder suspected of drugging a horse, cited with approval both Leadbitter as well as Shubert itself. Marrone v. Wash. Jockey Club of D.C., 227 U .S. 633, 635 (1913). In turn, the current New Jersey Supreme Court adopted the “license” rule in another case dealing with the exclusion and expulsion of a ticket-holding patron from a race track. In Garifine v. Monmouth Park Jockey Club, 148 A.2d 1 (N.J.1959), the race track excluded and expelled a patron, who had been charged but acquitted of being a bookmaker, as an undesirable, id. at 2. The plaintiff argued, inter alia, “that notwithstanding the holding of the former Supreme Court in [Shubert ], the operator of a licensed race track should not have the common-law right to exclude or expel a patron without reasonable cause.” Id. After a thorough discussion, including summaries of both Leadbitter and Shubert, New Jersey's highest court rejected this attack on the “common-law right of race track operators to exclude suspected undesirables.” Id. at 6. It noted, inter alia, that the plaintiff's complaint “does not question the defendant's good faith or sound purposes nor does it present any countervailing circumstances or any urgent considerations of justice or policy” indicating the need to depart from the general rule. Id.

Although it did not use the specific term “license,” the ticket stub provided by the Patriots nevertheless appears consistent with this traditional approach. For example, it unambiguously stated that “[t]his ticket only grants entry into the stadium and a spectator seat for the specified NFL game.” (SA4.) The stub further made clear that the Jets and the owners of the stadium retain sole discretion to refuse admission or to eject a ticket-holder. Admittedly, the Shubert court in particular made repeated references to the existence of a claim for breach of contract. See Shubert, 83 A. at 369-71. However, it appears that the court was only referring to the patron's right to obtain a refund of the ticket price (and related expenses) because the venue exercised its right to deny entry or expel the patron.3 Given that Mayer was never barred or expelled from any game at Giants Stadium, much more is needed to establish a cognizable right, interest, or injury than these kinds of inapposite statements.
 
all I have on that one is that the Supervisory called United Control who then said they would call authorities to talk to the person.

"talk to the person"

So, to be clear, you are confirming that your claim
They were following standard procedures that all airlines followed
is false.

- - - Updated - - -

It's interesting that the two people posting in this thread most closely aligned with the Libertarian position are the same two people who think that the 'adult' thing to do is immediately surrender to an authority figure regardless of your rights so that a business can violate the terms of a contract.

^^^^ That

Huh. The Supervisor at the gate calls control who calls the Chicago authorities say that a person we've removed their ticket from is no longer on the plane and can you handle getting him off the plane? That's not following procedures?

- - - Updated - - -

It's interesting that the two people posting in this thread most closely aligned with the Libertarian position are the same two people who think that the 'adult' thing to do is immediately surrender to an authority figure regardless of your rights so that a business can violate the terms of a contract.


To be fair, Loren is in a party of 1.
 
Here is the relevant section in the New England Patriot Case

nitially, we consider how tickets to sporting and other entertainment events have been treated in the past. As the District Court recognized, New Jersey has generally followed a so-called “license” approach.1 In Shubert v. Nixon Amusement Co., 83 A. 369 (N.J.Sup.Ct.1912), the old New Jersey Supreme Court considered a tort action filed by a plaintiff who, together with his friends, was ejected from a theater even though they had already taken their seats,2 id. at 369. In considering this action, the court turned to prior case law, especially the Court of Exchequer's leading decision in Wood v. Leadbitter, (1845) 153 Eng. Rep. 351 (Exch.). Relying, inter alia, on this English decision, the Shubert court repeatedly indicated that a ticket provides a patron with nothing more than a revocable license. Shubert, 83 A. at 369-71. For instance, it quoted, with approval, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court's finding “that ‘a theater ticket is to be regarded as a mere license, for the revocation of which before the holder has actually been given his seat, and has taken it, the only remedy is in assumpsit for a breach of contract.’ “ Id. at 370 (quoting Horney v. Nixon, 61 A. 1088, 1090 (Pa.1905)). While referring in passing to the “natural justice or injustice” of the defendant's actions, the New Jersey Supreme Court ultimately ruled that the well-established “license” rule barred the plaintiff's tort action even though he had already taken his seat in the theater before being asked to leave. Id. at 371.

It appears that this “license” approach has, for some time, been followed throughout the United States and in other common law jurisdictions throughout the world. For example, the United States Supreme Court, in a decision written by Justice Holmes considering the exclusion from a race track of a ticket-holder suspected of drugging a horse, cited with approval both Leadbitter as well as Shubert itself. Marrone v. Wash. Jockey Club of D.C., 227 U .S. 633, 635 (1913). In turn, the current New Jersey Supreme Court adopted the “license” rule in another case dealing with the exclusion and expulsion of a ticket-holding patron from a race track. In Garifine v. Monmouth Park Jockey Club, 148 A.2d 1 (N.J.1959), the race track excluded and expelled a patron, who had been charged but acquitted of being a bookmaker, as an undesirable, id. at 2. The plaintiff argued, inter alia, “that notwithstanding the holding of the former Supreme Court in [Shubert ], the operator of a licensed race track should not have the common-law right to exclude or expel a patron without reasonable cause.” Id. After a thorough discussion, including summaries of both Leadbitter and Shubert, New Jersey's highest court rejected this attack on the “common-law right of race track operators to exclude suspected undesirables.” Id. at 6. It noted, inter alia, that the plaintiff's complaint “does not question the defendant's good faith or sound purposes nor does it present any countervailing circumstances or any urgent considerations of justice or policy” indicating the need to depart from the general rule. Id.

Although it did not use the specific term “license,” the ticket stub provided by the Patriots nevertheless appears consistent with this traditional approach. For example, it unambiguously stated that “[t]his ticket only grants entry into the stadium and a spectator seat for the specified NFL game.” (SA4.) The stub further made clear that the Jets and the owners of the stadium retain sole discretion to refuse admission or to eject a ticket-holder. Admittedly, the Shubert court in particular made repeated references to the existence of a claim for breach of contract. See Shubert, 83 A. at 369-71. However, it appears that the court was only referring to the patron's right to obtain a refund of the ticket price (and related expenses) because the venue exercised its right to deny entry or expel the patron.3 Given that Mayer was never barred or expelled from any game at Giants Stadium, much more is needed to establish a cognizable right, interest, or injury than these kinds of inapposite statements.

Terms of the contract:
The stub further made clear that the Jets and the owners of the stadium retain sole discretion to refuse admission or to eject a ticket-holder.

The United Contract of Carriage contains no such language.

All of the nonsense about "license" doesn't apply
 
"talk to the person"

So, to be clear, you are confirming that your claim
They were following standard procedures that all airlines followed
is false.

- - - Updated - - -

It's interesting that the two people posting in this thread most closely aligned with the Libertarian position are the same two people who think that the 'adult' thing to do is immediately surrender to an authority figure regardless of your rights so that a business can violate the terms of a contract.

^^^^ That

Huh. The Supervisor at the gate calls control who calls the Chicago authorities say that a person we've removed their ticket from is no longer on the plane and can you handle getting him off the plane? That's not following procedures?

No. It is not. The airline does not have the right to "remove" the boarded passenger's ticket without a valid reason under the applicable rule regarding passenger conduct.
 
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