Did you take a class in critical race theory?

[Gospel]

It can. But my point is, can racism reasonably exist without wealth inequality?

It's not only can. It has. And to your question my non over thinking answer is no, my overthinking answer is yes, given humans enough time we'll find a way.

I really like discussing things with you. I'm sorry if I am frustrating most of the time.

I'm sorry that you felt the need to apologize. I appreciate this platform and people like you willing to have a conversation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The primary cause of poverty in the US is not working enough hours.

The primary cause of poverty in the US is the capitalist structure that makes it more profitable for Companies to restrict employees to "part time" hours, than to pay full time wages and benefits.
This perpetuates the poverty that ensures the availability of "desperation" workers. Loren represents that it's the choice of the lazy workers. But workers don't benefit from the perpetuation of hours-restricted poverty - COMPANIES do.

This isn't the capitalist structure, it's the government saying part-timers don't need to be paid benefits, thus making it a better deal for employers to keep workers below the number of hours to pay benefits.

 

[bilby]

The primary cause of poverty in the US is not working enough hours.

The primary cause of poverty in the US is the capitalist structure that makes it more profitable for Companies to restrict employees to "part time" hours, than to pay full time wages and benefits.
This perpetuates the poverty that ensures the availability of "desperation" workers. Loren represents that it's the choice of the lazy workers. But workers don't benefit from the perpetuation of hours-restricted poverty - COMPANIES do.

This isn't the capitalist structure, it's the government saying part-timers don't need to be paid benefits, thus making it a better deal for employers to keep workers below the number of hours to pay benefits.

The government doesn't say that part timers don't need to be paid those benefits. They say full timers DO need to be paid them. In a libertarian free market paradise, those benefits wouldn't exist at all, and all staff would engage in a race to the bottom.

The solution is to require pro-rata benefits or pay in lieu for part time and/or casual workers.

Basically employers are arseholes, and can be relied upon to always do the absolute minimum - minimum pay, minimum benefits, minimum care for their employees. They will, however, not hesitate to try to guilt, cheat, or otherwise manipulate employees into doing more than they're paid to do.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The primary cause of poverty in the US is not working enough hours having enough money.

FIFY.

Here are some interesting related statistics from mostly 2018:

In 2018, 38.1 million people lived in Poverty USA.

...

In 2018, the poverty rate for people living with a disability was 25.7%. That’s nearly 4 million people living with a disability—in poverty.

...

In 2018, 16.2% of all children (11.9 million kids) lived in Poverty USA—that’s almost 1 in every 6 children.

...

Though the official census data gives seniors a 2018 poverty rate of only 9.7%, the Supplemental Poverty Measure, which accounts for expenses such as the rising costs of health care, raises the senior poverty rate to 14.1%.

https://www.povertyusa.org/facts

A quick google shows there were about 52 million senior citizens in 2018 in the United States. If 14% were at or below poverty level, then that makes about 7.3 million senior citizens in poverty.

Now, let's look at percents out of the total poverty population:
Seniors ---- 7.3 million / 38.1 million ~= 19.2%
Children --- 11.9 million / 38.1 million ~= 31.2%
Disabled --- ~4 million / 38.1 million ~= 10.5%
Others --- 100% - 19.2% - 31.2% - 10.5% = 39.1%

Pie Chart


Out of the people who remain, perhaps some are unfairly incarcerated or the spouses of those persons who have to take care of the children in addition to other tasks and meager work. There are around 2 million incarcerated persons in the United States. Or perhaps some of those people are widowed spouses or spouses of disabled persons taking care of children. Or perhaps many are single mothers whose children have deadbeat dads. And I am not putting a lot into trying to be creative to lay out possibilities of this section of people. For sake of your point, let's just go ahead and assume that 100% of Others can work for a wage as opposed to domestic house work.

Now, even assuming that, their pay typically is a wage defined by
Wage = Pay per hour * hours

There is no reason to focus on hours as opposed to pay per hour. Both contribute equally to wages.

 

[Copernicus]

It can. But my point is, can racism reasonably exist without wealth inequality?

I suppose that one would have to imagine a situation in which there can be racial tensions between poor people or middle class people of different racial characteristics. Can you imagine that?

"Racism" of the sort discussed is not "racial tensions" but rather systems which retain and force such tensions through an in-group and an out-group.

It helps to not conflate usages.

There isn't much in this particular exchange; it is idle trivia and little more at this point.

Taxonomically, I see "racism" as a particularly pernicious and awful form of "wealth inequality".

I understand, but I think that you are equating two very different things. Wealth inequality exists both within the same racial group and across racial boundaries. Jews are usually thought of as white, yet it was better to be a white non-Jew than a rich Jew after Hitler's explicitly racist regime came into power. Historically, Jews had always been discriminated against in the Roman Empire, especially after the Christian era began. Antisemitic pogroms existed long before the Nazis showed up. Jews were limited in the kinds of businesses and social activities that they could engage in. Being wealthy didn't matter. Racism is about social stereotyping that cuts across economic boundaries.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This isn't the capitalist structure, it's the government saying part-timers don't need to be paid benefits, thus making it a better deal for employers to keep workers below the number of hours to pay benefits.

The government doesn't say that part timers don't need to be paid those benefits. They say full timers DO need to be paid them. In a libertarian free market paradise, those benefits wouldn't exist at all, and all staff would engage in a race to the bottom.

The solution is to require pro-rata benefits or pay in lieu for part time and/or casual workers.

That's the solution I favor, also.

Basically employers are arseholes, and can be relied upon to always do the absolute minimum - minimum pay, minimum benefits, minimum care for their employees. They will, however, not hesitate to try to guilt, cheat, or otherwise manipulate employees into doing more than they're paid to do.

It's a matter of competition on what's measured.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The primary cause of poverty in the US is not working enough hours having enough money.

FIFY.

You didn't fix anything because that's not a rebuttal.

The reality is almost everyone in poverty is not working a 40 hr week.

Yes, there are those who can't--but raising the hourly rate isn't going to help those who don't work.

For the rest, we should be aiming to provide full employment for them, then evaluate the poverty situation.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The primary cause of poverty in the US is not working enough hours having enough money.

FIFY.

You didn't fix anything because that's not a rebuttal.

Sure it is. The majority of people in poverty cannot work or can only work less. For those who _can_ work, one might as well arbitrarily instead say they don't get paid enough instead of arbitrarily claiming they have to work more hours.

The reality is almost everyone in poverty is not working a 40 hr week.

The majority of people in poverty are in the set {children, disabled, senior citizens}. Why are you discussing them working a 40 hour week?

Yes, there are those who can't--but raising the hourly rate isn't going to help those who don't work.

It might. Some of those children have parents who, if they earn more pay per hour, it could help them.

For the rest, we should be aiming to provide full employment for them, then evaluate the poverty situation.

IF they can work full-time, which is questionable, then ONE thing that could be done is to be "aiming to provide full employment" and an additional thing could be to raise hourly rates. There continues to be no reason to assume that the _primary_ reason for poverty is lack of hours. At this point, it appears your claim is counterfactual and so if you have additional supporting evidence that the vast majority of poor people are only poor because they don't work enough hours, now would be the time to try to prove that against the facts submitted.

 

[ZiprHead]

Anybody remember W saying this?

“You work three jobs? Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that."

To a divorced mother of three, Omaha, Nebraska, Feb. 4, 2005”

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Anybody remember W saying this?

“You work three jobs? Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that."

To a divorced mother of three, Omaha, Nebraska, Feb. 4, 2005”

Back in early 90's I was working 2 jobs plus I was an Army reservist. Hours were inconsistent, but averaged in total 40 hours. Schedule was different per week and I worked graveyard as dishwasher at one while I worked anytime mall hours at the other as stock clerk. I did not own a car, but took bus or bicycled. It is harder when your work schedule is all broken up and inconsitent...4 commutes in a day. Anyway, somehow I got a kidney infection but had no idea what was wrong. No health insurance. After I burned out with a fever of 107 and couldn't comprehend sentences of length, urinating blood, before finally being immobile on the couch, then my Aunt called an ambulance. The hospital assumed I had insurance from the Army but I didn't. I was given a form for aid which I filled out. The city denied me aid because they claimed my annual income predicted would be $12.5k just over the threshold of $12k. After a week, hospital bill was $6k and doctor bill was $2k. My employers only hired part-timers because new law said at full-time they had to offer group healthcare buy-in. Anyway, the city paperwork allowed a highly bureaucratic appeal process within some number of days, but I was still not quite well, no car, back at work, didn't know how to get the records they wanted, and didn't know how to prove I would make less than $12k for the year, but mostly I trusted their projections...so I just continued working away instead. But at the end of the year, my w2 said I only had made $11,450.

 

[Gospel]

Anybody remember W saying this?

“You work three jobs? Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that."

To a divorced mother of three, Omaha, Nebraska, Feb. 4, 2005”

Back in early 90's I was working 2 jobs plus I was an Army reservist. Hours were inconsistent, but averaged in total 40 hours. Schedule was different per week and I worked graveyard as dishwasher at one while I worked anytime mall hours at the other as stock clerk. I did not own a car, but took bus or bicycled. It is harder when your work schedule is all broken up and inconsitent...4 commutes in a day. Anyway, somehow I got a kidney infection but had no idea what was wrong. No health insurance. After I burned out with a fever of 107 and couldn't comprehend sentences of length, urinating blood, before finally being immobile on the couch, then my Aunt called an ambulance. The hospital assumed I had insurance from the Army but I didn't. I was given a form for aid which I filled out. The city denied me aid because they claimed my annual income predicted would be $12.5k just over the threshold of $12k. After a week, hospital bill was $6k and doctor bill was $2k. My employers only hired part-timers because new law said at full-time they had to offer group healthcare buy-in. Anyway, the city paperwork allowed a highly bureaucratic appeal process within some number of days, but I was still not quite well, no car, back at work, didn't know how to get the records they wanted, and didn't know how to prove I would make less than $12k for the year, but mostly I trusted their projections...so I just continued working away instead. But at the end of the year, my w2 said I only had made $11,450.

in the 90's I worked Full time at a powder coating company (mailny forklift work) and night shift at a supermarket (stocking shelves). That was 7 am to 5 pm & then 10 am to 2 am my take-home pay for both combined (IIRC) was around $1100 a Month. The room I was renting was (rounded down) $700 a month. The supermarket closed down (Edwards Supermarket) and the powder coating company hired cheaper (off the books) labor and let me go. Did that for two and a half years before becomming a hobo and then moving south to become Florida Man.

 

[Elixir]

The primary cause of poverty in the US is not working enough hours.

The primary cause of poverty in the US is the capitalist structure that makes it more profitable for Companies to restrict employees to "part time" hours, than to pay full time wages and benefits.
This perpetuates the poverty that ensures the availability of "desperation" workers. Loren represents that it's the choice of the lazy workers. But workers don't benefit from the perpetuation of hours-restricted poverty - COMPANIES do.

This isn't the capitalist structure, it's the government saying part-timers don't need to be paid benefits, thus making it a better deal for employers to keep workers below the number of hours to pay benefits.

Yeah, and teh goobermint failing to institute a living minimum wage, and teh goobermint taxing poor people but not rich people and teh goobermint...
But let's blame people for not working enough hours.