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DISAPPOINTING JOBS REPORT is whose fault?

The current bad jobs numbers are the fault of:

  • Democrats/Biden, with their higher tax-and-spend policies.

    Votes: 1 33.3%
  • Republicans/Trumpsters, by opposing 3-4 trillion higher federal debt.

    Votes: 1 33.3%
  • Democrats/Republicans, by opposing admission of a million or so immigrants to fill the vacant jobs.

    Votes: 1 33.3%

  • Total voters
    3
4.8% unemployment. If conditions persist, a lowering Unemployment Rate should be viewed negatively by Wall St. Isn’t (wasn’t) it said that anything under 5.2% unemployment is considered “full employment”? Ha. I reckon we can toss that benchmark out the window.
They should concern themselves more with the Labor Participation Rate.

I have to wonder about this grand plan of Biden’s to keep ports open 24/7 in an attempt to move goods. I’ve only got the highlights but I have to wonder where they are going to get all these extra truck drivers from. Moreover, it was mentioned expanding the hours truckers can stay on the roads. What if they don’t wanna stay on the roads? Either way you slice it, truckers and longshoremen are likely to demand pay premium for night/Sunday work hours and that means inflation and/or cutting profits. This with US oil and gas producers refusing to pump more and it can be a rough 2022 for the party in power.
We must face the facts that higher prices are permanent. There is no way we can solve it quickly. But if we all cooperate, and make modest sacrifices, if we learn to live thriftily and remember the importance of helping our neighbors, then we can find ways to adjust, and to make our society more efficient and our own lives more enjoyable and productive.
 
4.8% unemployment. If conditions persist, a lowering Unemployment Rate should be viewed negatively by Wall St. Isn’t (wasn’t) it said that anything under 5.2% unemployment is considered “full employment”? Ha. I reckon we can toss that benchmark out the window.
They should concern themselves more with the Labor Participation Rate.

For years I have felt the unemployment rate has actually been higher than the official number--the labor market has not been reacting like would be expected--I have figured it's the effect of the gig economy, people are considered employed because they are doing gig jobs, but it's not what they want. Now, however, things are the other way around, the market is acting as if the official numbers are too high. It's already been shown this isn't an effect of the extra unemployment coverage so I'm left puzzled.
 
It's about getting needed work done --

-- not about protecting/providing jobs for crybabies who don't want to compete.


Oh dear, another ironic “crybaby economics” OP that presupposes a simple magic wand approach to an economic issue.

What's "magic" about job-seekers at point A being allowed to take jobs at point B? Is it "magic" to combine a job with someone who wants to work?

Was it "magic" more than 100 years ago when America took in millions of immigrants to get needed work done? Was all that benefit to the U.S. economy, like getting the railroads done quicker, a "magic wand" approach to an economic issue?

If so, this is "magic" which has worked well historically. And when the opposite is done and immigrant labor is curtailed, like Trump tried to do, and like what's happening in England right now where there's a labor shortage, and like America did 100 years ago to appease the xenophobes, the net result has been damaging to the economy.

And who are the ones who throw a tantrum when immigrant labor increases? Isn't it the uncompetitive workers who are afraid it threatens their job? or someone pandering to them?

So, what's wrong with calling them crybabies, when their clamor is only to make themselves better off at the expense of everyone else who has to pay for it? when the result is to prevent needed work from getting done which would benefit the entire population? and when the only benefit is to this minority of whining uncompetitive wage-earners who instead of throwing a tantrum could choose to improve themselves and become better producers?

What's wrong with calling someone a "crybaby" when their whining is only to make themselves personally better off at the cost of net damage imposed onto everyone else?

Looks to me that you are having a meltdown about this.

The current situation in the US is a short-run labor shortage at best.

We don't know that. Economists are mostly baffled about the labor shortage and the cause of it. Even if it's true that labor supply will increase within a year or two, that's no reason to exclude needed workers who are available for work needing to be done now.

Why should all this work not get done? Why should shelves remain empty and cargo ships not be unloaded and products not be delivered when there are easily a million immigrant workers who can perform that needed work? Why should needed work not get done based on theoretical speculation that the labor shortage might decrease over 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 years? Why not instead let the current needed work get done?

Why does immigrant-bashing take priority over the welfare of U.S. consumers? i.e., over the whole population?


The non-crybaby market solution is for those labor markets where there is a shortage to raise wages in order to . . .

No, higher labor cost might mean less profit, in which case it won't happen, but instead companies will just let the production remain low until they find the needed labor. How can you expect companies to reduce their profit in order to fill high-cost jobs? You mean they're supposed to hire workers out of pity for them? and pay workers not for the work but only because they feel sorry for the needy workers?

How is it bad for the economy if immigrant workers are allowed in to do those jobs? How is that any different than if the work is automated so that it's done by machines rather than by humans? Isn't it good if lower-cost machines are introduced to do the work instead of high-cost labor? So, if we agree that automation is good for the economy, to get the work done at lower cost, why then isn't it also good to get the work done at lower labor cost, if the workers are available?

. . . raise wages in order to induce more qualified people into the labor market.

Employers already know that and do increase wages in some cases, but in other cases that labor cost increase is so much that the company would lose profit rather than gain at that higher cost level. The company knows best what is the right wage level in order maximize its profit, which every company tries to do.

The company's function is to serve consumers with more and better production, not provide jobs or incomes to needy workers. If it can better serve consumers (and thus increase profit) by increasing the wage level, it's already doing so. But in many cases the company is barely making a profit at the current lower wage level. So increasing the labor supply is also a way to get production back up.

Or also, installing machines to do the work is a solution. Increased immigration is one way historically that companies improved production and served consumers better. When there's a need for the extra labor, increased immigration is one solution. There's no reason why it should not be increased now when it's needed. To arbitrarily rule it out at this time can only be explained as another example of xenophobia.


Your solution is a long-run.

We are better off long-term even if the current labor shortage turns out to be temporary. There is both the short-term benefit of taking in more immigrant workers now, but also the long-term benefit of increased competition. More competition is always good for the economy, never bad. So even if this is short-term, which we don't know, it's still good because there is no long-term harm or cost in having these extra workers or this higher labor supply in the following years. That increased competition in the labor market is good for the economy, as ALL competition is good.

When we know there is a short-term gain, and there is no long-term loss, then how is it not a net gain to do it even if it does turn out to be a short-term problem? Why take the risk of the harm that would happen a year or 2 from now if it turns out later to be a long-term labor shortage rather than only short-term? It's better to fix what we know needs fixing now, and not worry about the longer-term speculation over the future conditions, which you cannot predict.

When did this country ever suffer a labor glut because of too much immigration? No one except an overpaid crybaby uncompetitive wage-earner would ever make that complaint; or maybe also an immigrant-hater.


It is magical thinking to opine that these immigrants will have the necessary language, labor and cultural abilities and skills to seamlessly do the productive work and . . .

So immigrants are too stupid to drive a truck or unload cargo at the docks?

. . . do the productive work and magically get to the areas where there are those shortages.

source: Imperial Grand Dragon David Duke's White Paper on Why Immigrants are a Threat to Red-Blooded American Workers


Moreover, that those communities where they settle will seamlessly welcome and help those immigrants and their children integrate into society.

source: David Duke's White Paper on Why Immigrants are a Threat to our Red-Blooded American Families and Communities
 
-- not about protecting/providing jobs for crybabies who don't want to compete.


Looks to me that you are having a meltdown about this.

The current situation in the US is a short-run labor shortage at best.

We don't know that. Economists are mostly baffled about the labor shortage and the cause of it. Even if it's true that labor supply will increase within a year or two, that's no reason to exclude needed workers who are available for work needing to be done now.

Why should all this work not get done? Why should shelves remain empty and cargo ships not be unloaded and products not be delivered when there are easily a million immigrant workers who can perform that needed work? Why should needed work not get done based on theoretical speculation that the labor shortage might decrease over 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 years? Why not instead let the current needed work get done?

Why does immigrant-bashing take priority over the welfare of U.S. consumers? i.e., over the whole population?

“Needed”? We need people to fulfill our wants.

What percentage of this shit is needed? Unnecessary products no one needs. Do people shop because they need something or they simply have a desire to shop? I wonder how this all breaks out. When I used to do budget counseling for people who lost the ability to perform arithmetic when the $ symbol was present, one of the best methods for people to separate their needs from their wants was to have them record and review a month’s worth of expenditures. Everything. Every dime they spent.

“Needed”. Humph.

So many goods and services are actually wants.
 
The crybabies affecting the economy are the anti-vaxxers who are anchoring the US economy. Had people not been whiny crybabies, we'd be dealing with a bit more in shortages, but working on catching up. Instead, we are stuck in 2020 right now because people are afraid of needles and masks.
Can't find the link, now, but someone experimented with job availability. He targeted businesses whose owners were online bitching about labor shortages, and no one wants to work anymore. Submitted 2 applications a day for a month, so about 60 applications.
Got 16 return emails.
One phone call.
The phone call was disappointing.
"Yeah, it starts at $8.65 an hour."
"Your ad said $15."
"It'll go up with the minimum wage goes up. You start at 20 hours a week."
"The ad said full-time."
"We can change you to full-time after 2 months."
A few other details in contradiction to the ad.

So he concludes no one's actually experiencing a shortage of workers, they're nostalgic about an abundance of slave labor.
Here you go, just bumped into it, you pretty much nailed the description:
https://news.yahoo.com/worker-florida-applied-60-entry-193423909.html
 
We don't know that. Economists are mostly baffled about the labor shortage and the cause of it...
No, they are not. It is a labor shortage. Hell, even you know it, otherwise there would be no reason for your proposal.
Why should all this work not get done? Why should shelves remain empty and cargo ships not be unloaded and products not be delivered when there are easily a million immigrant workers who can perform that needed work? Why should needed work not get done based on theoretical speculation that the labor shortage might decrease over 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 years? Why not instead let the current needed work get done?
You have no idea whether there are sufficient number of sufficient skilled immigrants clammering to come here. None whatsoever.
Why does immigrant-bashing take priority over the welfare of U.S. consumers? i.e., over the whole population?
It doesn't.

No, higher labor cost might mean less profit, in which case it won't happen, but instead companies will just let the production remain low until they find the needed labor. How can you expect companies to reduce their profit in order to fill high-cost jobs? You mean they're supposed to hire workers out of pity for them? and pay workers not for the work but only because they feel sorry for the needy workers?
Ah, I cannot distinguish between your crybaby economics or babbling economics. If employers want more people to work for them, they have to offer better compensation - that is market economics in action. If they don't or won't, then they need to STFU with their crybaby economics.



Employers already know that and do increase wages in some cases, but in other cases that labor cost increase is so much that the company would lose profit rather than gain at that higher cost level. The company knows best what is the right wage level in order maximize its profit, which every company tries to do.
First, your assumption that all employers know best is insane. Second, employers do not necessarily increase wages. Sometimes they engage in crybaby economics to get their dupes up in arms. Third, companies do not have to necessarily maximize profit in the short-run or even in the long-run. Fourth, if raising wages means inadequate returns to the company for the additional work, then the work is not worth it to the economy.

So immigrants are too stupid to drive a truck or unload cargo at the docks?
Driving semis is skilled work. Frankly, I think it is nuts to have drivers who don't read or understand the language.
Unloading cargo at docks and onto trucks is skilled labor. Most of it is done with high-end machinery. Now I understand some of the source of your disdain for labor - you have no clue what work entails.

source: Imperial Grand Dragon David Duke's White Paper on Why Immigrants are a Threat to Red-Blooded American Workers ....source: David Duke's White Paper on Why Immigrants are a Threat to our Red-Blooded American Families and Communities
Your libel is pretty ironic coming from someone who has defended slavery. I have nothing against immigration. Your proposal is utopian - it ignores all the real issues and problems. One does not have to be a racist to know that there are racist communities in the USA. So you can shove that KKK implication back up from where you pulled it.

I get it. You have a long history of wanting immigration to drive down wages on the theory that everyone is better off from the alleged benefits from lower prices. In an economy where no firms have market power and where unit labor costs are identical in all industries, you'd have a real point. But that world is an illusion and your proposal ignores the potential REAL problems. I also realize that your ideology prevents reality based discussions.
 
Can't find the link, now, but someone experimented with job availability. He targeted businesses whose owners were online bitching about labor shortages, and no one wants to work anymore. Submitted 2 applications a day for a month, so about 60 applications.
Got 16 return emails.
One phone call.
The phone call was disappointing.
"Yeah, it starts at $8.65 an hour."
"Your ad said $15."
"It'll go up with the minimum wage goes up. You start at 20 hours a week."
"The ad said full-time."
"We can change you to full-time after 2 months."
A few other details in contradiction to the ad.

So he concludes no one's actually experiencing a shortage of workers, they're nostalgic about an abundance of slave labor.

The company I work for cannot get enough people and retain them. We are currently at least 60 people short. We have offered all sorts of incentives and bonuses. In the area where we operate there are "Now Hiring" signs everywhere.
 
Rabid libertarians: "Why don't you just quit your low wage job and better yourself?"

Workers today: "Okay. Fuck my current employer. The business down the street is offering more money, better benefits, and better working conditions. I quit!"

Rabid libertarians: "Not like that! Why don't you want to work for us?! You ungrateful lazy bastards!!!"

Almost correct. Rabid libertarians: "Not like that! Why don't you want to work for us?! You ungrateful lazy bastards!!!

Now we have to find some scab labor to exploit from the poorer countries on our southern border!!!"
 
Rabid libertarians: "Why don't you just quit your low wage job and better yourself?"

Workers today: "Okay. Fuck my current employer. The business down the street is offering more money, better benefits, and better working conditions. I quit!"

Rabid libertarians: "Not like that! Why don't you want to work for us?! You ungrateful lazy bastards!!!"

People must realize when they have the power. These instances are few. The last was the collapse of the housing market. Fewer realized the power they had to screw over the banks by forcing them to reappraise their property and obtain a lower mortgage in the face of so many foreclosures on the bank’s books.
For today’s workers, it’s more evident. Don’t want to pay me more? Duck you. I’ll move on down the road. It’s only people’s naive sense of fair play in our capitalism run amok system holding them back.

Exactly. It is the same free market capitalism that Lumpenproletariat is scared to death of .
 
Oh dear, another ironic “crybaby economics” OP that presupposes a simple magic wand approach to an economic issue.

What's "magic" about job-seekers at point A being allowed to take jobs at point B? Is it "magic" to combine a job with someone who wants to work?

Was it "magic" more than 100 years ago when America took in millions of immigrants to get needed work done? Was all that benefit to the U.S. economy, like getting the railroads done quicker, a "magic wand" approach to an economic issue?

If so, this is "magic" which has worked well historically. And when the opposite is done and immigrant labor is curtailed, like Trump tried to do, and like what's happening in England right now where there's a labor shortage, and like America did 100 years ago to appease the xenophobes, the net result has been damaging to the economy.

And who are the ones who throw a tantrum when immigrant labor increases? Isn't it the uncompetitive workers who are afraid it threatens their job? or someone pandering to them?

So, what's wrong with calling them crybabies, when their clamor is only to make themselves better off at the expense of everyone else who has to pay for it? when the result is to prevent needed work from getting done which would benefit the entire population? and when the only benefit is to this minority of whining uncompetitive wage-earners who instead of throwing a tantrum could choose to improve themselves and become better producers?

What's wrong with calling someone a "crybaby" when their whining is only to make themselves personally better off at the cost of net damage imposed onto everyone else?

It would be fine to exploit cheap labor if the producers paid all of the costs...but they don't. The biggest cost they don't pay is health care but there are many other costs that do not get paid for when poor immigrants are exploited.

A far better way for producers to get the cheaper labor is to automate their production. Automation is a win win for just about everyone. It is even a long term win for the labor who wants higher wages. Higher productivity benefits everyone. But unfortunately, people like yourself can not grasp that concept.
 
It's not that the jobs aren't there, but rather that there's a shortage of workers taking the jobs available.
Only a shortage of workers to do the jobs at the current market price. Raise the wage and there will be a shortage of jobs for workers. Econ 101.
Maybe this is due mostly to the pandemic, which isn't over, and which is making employment less attractive.

Companies are even cutting back production for lack of needed workers. Who's to blame for this? And why basically is this bad?

What's wrong is not high unemployment, but that needed work is not getting done. There's a need for more truck drivers, dock workers at the ports, and some skilled workers like plumbers and electricians. Also firefighters, and many other kinds of workers -- but job-seekers are staying home rather than taking the jobs that are open.

https://nypost.com/2021/10/08/joe-biden-brushes-off-second-poor-jobs-report-in-row/
Either pay more wages or automate. In the very near future, Elon Musk claims we will have driver less trucking. That will make some pretty low costs for trucking if you do not even need a truck driver.

So both Reds and Blues think it's better to let the economy suffer, let the production be lower, so less wealth is created, and so American consumers -- ALL Americans -- must have their living standard reduced, because of our need to pander to the crybabies who feel threatened by competition from immigrants.
All of this country loses big time when all the costs of exploiting labor are not included. It is the same kind of short sighted thinking that has allowed fossil fuels to dominate instead of cleaner energy. Even 200 years after the civil war, this country is still paying dearly for the last time producers exploited the black population from Africa.

The only solution to a better way of life (for all) is increased productivity through technology and automation.
 
I
It's not true that driving up the costs produces wealth.
But it is true that all the real costs of production should be paid for by the producers. Including the future costs of exploiting labor and not paying for all the costs they bring to the rest of the country.
 
Rabid libertarians: "Why don't you just quit your low wage job and better yourself?"

Workers today: "Okay. Fuck my current employer. The business down the street is offering more money, better benefits, and better working conditions. I quit!"

Rabid libertarians: "Not like that! Why don't you want to work for us?! You ungrateful lazy bastards!!!"

People must realize when they have the power. These instances are few. The last was the collapse of the housing market. Fewer realized the power they had to screw over the banks by forcing them to reappraise their property and obtain a lower mortgage in the face of so many foreclosures on the bank’s books.

For today’s workers, it’s more evident. Don’t want to pay me more? Duck you. I’ll move on down the road. It’s only people’s naive sense of fair play in our capitalism run amok system holding them back.

If only they'd follow their self interest they'd be better off, and so would the whole economy.

Adam Smith said it all when he described the "Invisible Hand" of the free market: everyone does what's in his/her personal self-interest, rather than worrying about what's good for someone else. Just find the best deal for yourself, whatever brings you more income/profit, and by doing that you also do the best for the whole economy or the whole society, because you've become more competitive and more productive. And don't waste time shedding tears for the uncompetitive losers who accuse you of not caring for their welfare.

So everyone -- job-seekers and employers and buyers and sellers -- should just shop around for a better deal and not worry about being more patriotic and getting caught up in the "buy local" or "buy American" and China-bashing and spend-more-money-to-stimulate-the-economy rhetoric. No, just work or hire or buy or sell for your own individual self-interest and let the economy take care of itself.

That's the true competitive free market, more of which would help to fix what's wrong today.

And that includes hiring immigrant labor, or hiring whoever will do the job at lower cost, so the needed work gets done. But which Biden and Trump can't figure out because they only want to pander to the crybaby immigrant-haters and employer-bashers who think cheap labor is bad for the economy.

Nothing wrong with this the "Invisible Hand" as long as that hand is not a criminal. We should be a country with the rule of law to prevent exploitation of people at a disadvantage. I believe in free market capitalism as long as it does not evolve into piracy.
 
A true free market becomes heavily restricted pretty quickly. We saw it with Standard Oil, then AT&T, and again AT&T (well, SBC) where economic options disappear. Money is like bad cholesterol. It attracts itself and then get lodged into places and no longer providing capital to the system. The first successful companies become bigger, and bigger companies have more capital, so they can starve off or buy off the competition. And then there is no one left. Facebook managed via going public, to get free cash to buy off any competition.

The free market is like a Physics 101 book, where, ignoring the effects of wind resistance, friction, etc... what will the distance travelled be. It is an ideal economic state that is not attainable.

We need to resurrect Teddy Roosevelt to do some "trust busting" again.
 
4.8% unemployment. If conditions persist, a lowering Unemployment Rate should be viewed negatively by Wall St. Isn’t (wasn’t) it said that anything under 5.2% unemployment is considered “full employment”? Ha. I reckon we can toss that benchmark out the window.
They should concern themselves more with the Labor Participation Rate.

I have to wonder about this grand plan of Biden’s to keep ports open 24/7 in an attempt to move goods. I’ve only got the highlights but I have to wonder where they are going to get all these extra truck drivers from. Moreover, it was mentioned expanding the hours truckers can stay on the roads. What if they don’t wanna stay on the roads? Either way you slice it, truckers and longshoremen are likely to demand pay premium for night/Sunday work hours and that means inflation and/or cutting profits. This with US oil and gas producers refusing to pump more and it can be a rough 2022 for the party in power.
We must face the facts that higher prices are permanent. There is no way we can solve it quickly. But if we all cooperate, and make modest sacrifices, if we learn to live thriftily and remember the importance of helping our neighbors, then we can find ways to adjust, and to make our society more efficient and our own lives more enjoyable and productive.

I agree. In the short run it is high inflation but that is exactly what we want. High costs will mean people (even the ones with a stimulus check) will think twice about what they buy on the store shelves. It is far better to have high prices and food on the shelves than low prices and nothing on the shelves.
 
Why should all this work not get done? Why should shelves remain empty and cargo ships not be unloaded and products not be delivered when there are easily a million immigrant workers who can perform that needed work? Why should needed work not get done based on theoretical speculation that the labor shortage might decrease over 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 years?
Why not let the free market decide what prices should be and take care of itself without producers becoming criminals??
Why not instead let the current needed work get done?
As long as it is legal and moral that is fine.
Why does immigrant-bashing take priority over the welfare of U.S. consumers? i.e., over the whole population?
Why does the whole population have to suffer costs of the criminal producers who want to exploit cheap and easy labor. Let them make their profits honestly with technology and higher productivity.

The non-crybaby market solution is for those labor markets where there is a shortage to raise wages in order to . . .
No. This is what is called free market capitalism.
No, higher labor cost might mean less profit, in which case it won't happen, but instead companies will just let the production remain low until they find the needed labor.
The dumb ones will. But the smarter ones like Elon Musk will figure how to get technology to do this work. And they will be the profitable survivors who win in the free market.
 
Wow. Nine stupid posts in a row, from the Oracle of Obtuseness.
 
Can't find the link, now, but someone experimented with job availability. He targeted businesses whose owners were online bitching about labor shortages, and no one wants to work anymore. Submitted 2 applications a day for a month, so about 60 applications.
Got 16 return emails.
One phone call.
The phone call was disappointing.
"Yeah, it starts at $8.65 an hour."
"Your ad said $15."
"It'll go up with the minimum wage goes up. You start at 20 hours a week."
"The ad said full-time."
"We can change you to full-time after 2 months."
A few other details in contradiction to the ad.

So he concludes no one's actually experiencing a shortage of workers, they're nostalgic about an abundance of slave labor.

The company I work for cannot get enough people and retain them. We are currently at least 60 people short. We have offered all sorts of incentives and bonuses. In the area where we operate there are "Now Hiring" signs everywhere.
It does seem weird out there, but there also seems to be a lot of business whining, cuz they don't have it easy. I find it kind of weird that it isn't ok in 'the free market' for employers to struggle, but who gives a fuck if employees have to suck it up and deal with shit...

2 antidotes: My son has worked at a place for 2 years now, kind of as a technical coordinator for work around the country. He has been trying to convince his managers, that he could quickly work his way up into a higher end IT position. They have spent about 2 months trying to find someone out of the box to work locally in the position. He is there go to guy for, hey we need someone to deal with this one off XYZ thing. He has the general background degree required, just not the specific experience. We still have our fingers crossed that his company will choose to allow him to train up...but why is it such a tug of war?

I'm semi-retired, as I didn't want to work full time as my last IT job ended 3 years ago. So I do random gigs from a couple platforms, via my LLC, to largely pay for health care until I'm eligible for Medicare. I do mostly data center work, but I see the jobs for tons of other stuff that I don't care about. I see more tickets come by, but I'm not seeing much in the way of companies offering more pay per hour. There are some very standard repeat little jobs, that I can tell haven't increased in offered pay at all, from 2 years ago. This gig work is very much like a spot market for labor, yet where are the fucking increase in $$ per hour, if they are so fucking desperate? FWIW, I'm not bitching cuz I need the money. I'm fine, but I feel for the people trying to make a living this way.
 
Wow. Nine stupid posts in a row, from the Oracle of Obtuseness.

I don't have the time right now, but I actually think there were some good points within all that volume...
 
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