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Disaster for Ukraine. Rebels route Ukrainian forces at Donetsk

What is stopping you from stating that case rather than rambling on. All I see is questions and no case stated.
A reluctance to cooperate with your clumsy attempt to shift the burden of proof.
Nothing wrong with being reluctant. There was no need to claim a case had been made that the government was legit though.
And to go back over my original point ..again...for the umpteenth time...sigh. Unless you can show the government was legitimate you have no case anyway.

You claimed the Ukrainian government was illegitimate, you can't back it up, let's move on.
I did but the problem is that your original claims need to have a legitimate government in Kiev at that time.

If you want to attempt to make a case for invasion then you need to show this.

You are the one claiming "invasion", so the burden is on you. Sorry
 
No she didn't which is why neither of you are mentioning any specifics about this alleged case. Rather than be a boor and waste our time, why not state what the case is. We have had at least half a dozen posts from you and sabine but neither of you have stated what this actual "case" is. Presently you seem incapable of either "moving on" or stating what Sabine's case is...so can you stop wasting our time or do something useful? It's not difficult. if you see some kind of case presented by Sabine then just state what you think Sabine's case for the government in Kiev being legit is. What is stopping you from stating that case rather than rambling on. All I see is questions and no case stated.
(sigh) This thread has been torture!
It's not my fault you're a masochist ;)
Do you or do you not have evidence that the popularly elected gov of Ukraine are "neo-nazis"? It's a simple question!
For a start I haven't been talking about the elected government. Can you at least try to follow.
 
Ukrainian neo-nazi in Spain at some University:
The video does not tell, how do you conclude they are neo-nazis? And if they are, what specific role do these specific people in the video have in the government in Kiev?
The government in Kiev was and is to a degree in a state of chaos. There are many different factions. Amongst these factions are ultra nationalist and neo nazis.

There is plenty of evidence for these factions.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ukrainian+neo+nazis+coup
 
I even wonder whether he was aware that the Parliament had voted to prompt presidential elections to be held in May.
l.
The referendum was in March. Is March after May on your calendar?
Is that supposed to be addressing :

To add that my post specifically pointed to the role of the Parliament which, to my knowledge, was not illegitimate and certainly not into the hands " of nazis" and "thugs who murder people". I asked him whether he was aware that the Ukrainian Parliament was part of a legitimate government as the legislative branch of the government. He did not address it.

It appears Thief of Fire is not that informed about which institutions constitute a government. Clearly, he was to reflect whether the removal of the head of the executive branch of the government implies that the legislative branch is then illegitimate. What I am observing here is avoidance on his part. And of course no documentation that somehow the Parliament or legislative branch of the government was in the hands of "thugs murdering people" and "nazis". I even wonder whether he was aware that the Parliament had voted to prompt presidential elections to be held in May.

His counter claim to my initial contention that Russia violated Article 6 of the Treaty of partition was to rehash that the "Government was illegitimate". He has yet to address my challenging his counter claim as I have clearly pointed to the legitimacy of the legislative branch of the Ukrainian government. Clearly, I have also questioned how his claims (clearly quoted) of "thugs murdering people" and "nazis" apply to the members of the Ukrainian parliament, again the legislative branch of the government.

It is indeed Thief Of Fire's responsibility to address the challenges I presented in my post rather than his persistent dismissal.

or is quote mining your now forever MO?
 
or is quote mining your now forever MO?
Sabine I'm not interested in "debating" you about whether technically there might be a case that the govt in Kiev was somehow legitimate (despite the fact they ousted the democratically elected leader).
I don't care whether you have some technical point about that or whether you can tell me how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It is a waste of my time. This is why i said "feel free to make a case they are legit". If you don't want to make that case I have zero interest discussing the topic with you. And remeber this point only came up because people were claiming Russia "invaded" Crimea.
If you want to discuss more important things I may consider replying.
 
The video does not tell, how do you conclude they are neo-nazis? And if they are, what specific role do these specific people in the video have in the government in Kiev?
The government in Kiev was and is to a degree in a state of chaos. There are many different factions. Amongst these factions are ultra nationalist and neo nazis.

There is plenty of evidence for these factions.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ukrainian+neo+nazis+coup
Soare you saying that because there are many different factions, and some factions may have nationalist leanings, then ALL of the government and everyone who supports them is a neo-nazi by association, including this group of youngsters who crashed in on a Russian propaganda event in Spain?

If I were to point out ultranationalists in Russian government, would that mean that everyone who supports Russia, including you and barbos, can be described as neo-nazis as well?
 
(sigh) This thread has been torture! Do you or do you not have evidence that the popularly elected gov of Ukraine are "neo-nazis"? It's a simple question!
To add that my post specifically pointed to the role of the Parliament which, to my knowledge, was not illegitimate and certainly not into the hands " of nazis" and "thugs who murder people". I asked him whether he was aware that the Ukrainian Parliament was part of a legitimate government as the legislative branch of the government. He did not address it.

It appears Thief of Fire is not that informed about which institutions constitute a government. Clearly, he was to reflect whether the removal of the head of the executive branch of the government implies that the legislative branch is then illegitimate. What I am observing here is avoidance on his part. And of course no documentation that somehow the Parliament or legislative branch of the government was in the hands of "thugs murdering people" and "nazis". I even wonder whether he was aware that the Parliament had voted to prompt presidential elections to be held in May.

His counter claim to my initial contention that Russia violated Article 6 of the Treaty of partition was to rehash that the "Government was illegitimate". He has yet to address my challenging his counter claim as I have clearly pointed to the legitimacy of the legislative branch of the Ukrainian government. Clearly, I have also questioned how his claims (clearly quoted) of "thugs murdering people" and "nazis" apply to the members of the Ukrainian parliament, again the legislative branch of the government.

It is indeed Thief Of Fire's responsibility to address the challenges I presented in my post rather than his persistent dismissal.

Totally agree with you! To date, Thief's argument is that Ukraine is controlled by Neo-Nazis and that American attacked Iraq. Therefore (I think), the world should not condemn Putin's continuous meddling and warmongling.

- - - Updated - - -

or is quote mining your now forever MO?
Sabine I'm not interested in "debating" you about whether technically there might be a case that the govt in Kiev was somehow legitimate (despite the fact they ousted the democratically elected leader).
I don't care whether you have some technical point about that or whether you can tell me how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It is a waste of my time. This is why i said "feel free to make a case they are legit". If you don't want to make that case I have zero interest discussing the topic with you. And remeber this point only came up because people were claiming Russia "invaded" Crimea.
If you want to discuss more important things I may consider replying.
What is it that you are arguing?
 
The government in Kiev was and is to a degree in a state of chaos. There are many different factions. Amongst these factions are ultra nationalist and neo nazis.

There is plenty of evidence for these factions.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ukrainian+neo+nazis+coup
Soare you saying that because there are many different factions, and some factions may have nationalist leanings, then ALL of the government and everyone who supports them is a neo-nazi by association, including this group of youngsters who crashed in on a Russian propaganda event in Spain?
No I am saying that the neo nazi elements were responsible for much of the violence and used by the coup government in that regard. Or more likely the new government (coming after the coup) were unable to control these elements, or showed no interest in doing so.

I don't know anything about Spain, i didn't link to that
 
or is quote mining your now forever MO?
Sabine I'm not interested in "debating" you about whether technically there might be a case that the govt in Kiev was somehow legitimate (despite the fact they ousted the democratically elected leader).
I don't care whether you have some technical point about that or whether you can tell me how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It is a waste of my time. This is why i said "feel free to make a case they are legit". If you don't want to make that case I have zero interest discussing the topic with you. And remeber this point only came up because people were claiming Russia "invaded" Crimea.
If you want to discuss more important things I may consider replying.
Oh my goodness! The case was made based on the reality that the Ukrainian parliament was certainly not illegitimate as the legislative branch of the Government. Still waiting for you to document which of the Parliamentary members were "thugs who murder people" and "nazis".

Your persistent dismissal directly related to my having contended that Russia violated Article 6 of the Partition Treaty has now been confirmed as an evasion on your part from a very important point which of course does not play in favor of Russia. So far, your attempt to disqualify my contention has miserably failed since you appear to have based your claim of an "illegal government" based on the belief that somehow the Ukrainian government is defined only via the head of the executive branch, who was removed. As if, again, the legislative branch is just chopped liver.

And of course, no documentation regarding members of the legislative branch being "thugs who murder people" and "nazis".

As I mentioned before, it is now on record.
 
Ukrainian neo-nazi in Spain at some University:
The video does not tell, how do you conclude they are neo-nazis? And if they are, what specific role do these specific people in the video have in the government in Kiev?

No, it does not. I mean hard to tell what's going on in there, but these are ukrainian flags and they were mentioning Bandera and spanish student called them fascists later.
It was supposed to be a lecture about events in Ukraine and it was not to their liking.
Rumours are, they drove cars with diplomatic plates, but I think it's probably not true.
 
Speaking of chaos, head of police of Ukraine admitted that crime rate jumped 40% since Maidan.
He also admitted that decent people simply leave police force and only scam tend to stay.
 
has miserably failed since you appear to have based your claim of an "illegal government" based on the belief that somehow the Ukrainian government is defined only via the head of the executive branch,

There's a thing. You wish that I had said that. But I didn't say that. :rolleyes:
 
has miserably failed since you appear to have based your claim of an "illegal government" based on the belief that somehow the Ukrainian government is defined only via the head of the executive branch,

There's a thing. You wish that I had said that. But I didn't say that. :rolleyes:
Not in so many words. However you declaring the "government illegal" can only be caused by a dismissal of which branches constitute the government. And again, the Ukrainian Parliament is the legislative branch of the government. The 2 other branches being the executive and the judiciary. Removal from the president or head of the executive in no way makes the "government illegal". Unless one believes that the government is reduced to a President or head of the executive branch.

Anyhow... you have presented NO valid counter argumentation to my initial and still standing firm on it that Russia violated the terms and conditions of Article 6 of the Treaty of Partition. It is on record now.
 
There's a thing. You wish that I had said that. But I didn't say that. :rolleyes:
Not in so many words. However you declaring the "government illegal" can only be caused by a dismissal of which branches constitute the government. .
So you say. But then again you have to say that.
I may have said "illegal" once but most of the time I've said "illegitmate", not that there is a huge difference except one seems to give you more scope to argue endlessly about this technicality.

However back to your point.
However you declaring the "government illegal" can only be caused by a dismissal of which branches constitute the government.
I realize English is not your first language, but you need to reword this.
And once you do you it is your responsibility to back up this assertion. You need to explain why this is the only way a government can be illegitimate or illegal.
 
And of course, no documentation regarding members of the legislative branch being "thugs who murder people" and "nazis".
Sabine, I never made this claim.
Can you please do the decent thing and use the quote function? ;)

I think that is the cause of most of the problem here. You won't use the quote function and are putting words in my mouth.
 
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If someone say that the US government kills people, who would imagine that they meant members of congress went and did it themselves? :rolleyes:
 
Soare you saying that because there are many different factions, and some factions may have nationalist leanings, then ALL of the government and everyone who supports them is a neo-nazi by association, including this group of youngsters who crashed in on a Russian propaganda event in Spain?
No I am saying that the neo nazi elements were responsible for much of the violence and used by the coup government in that regard. Or more likely the new government (coming after the coup) were unable to control these elements, or showed no interest in doing so.
This is an unsupported claim. The neo-nazi elements were probably esponsible for some of the violence, but pro-Russian provocateurs who shot at crowds are at least equally responsible. I don't know if Yanukovich himself gave the order to massacre the protestors, or if the order came from FSB, but trying to pin everything on the marginal "neo-nazis" is pure Russian propaganda.

I don't know anything about Spain, i didn't link to that
The post you responded to was specificly about a single incident in Spain, where some youngsters were dubbed "neo-nazis" by pro-Russian media for no other reason than waving flags in a likely Russian-funded propaganda event.
 
The video does not tell, how do you conclude they are neo-nazis? And if they are, what specific role do these specific people in the video have in the government in Kiev?

No, it does not. I mean hard to tell what's going on in there, but these are ukrainian flags and they were mentioning Bandera and spanish student called them fascists later.
It was supposed to be a lecture about events in Ukraine and it was not to their liking.
Rumours are, they drove cars with diplomatic plates, but I think it's probably not true.

"Probably" is putting it mildly, when the source is a Spanish website whose other breaking news include how Israeli army is stealing organs from Palestinians and how CIA orchestrated the Hong Kong protests. I didn't bother to dig any further.

Just because someone calls them fascists doesn't mean they are. The lecture they visited sounds like a one-sides, Russian-funded torture porn session so it's not unreasonable that the audience consists of students who are already brainwashed by the Russian narrative of every Ukrainian nationalist being a "fascist" or a "neo-nazi".
 
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