Disaster for Ukraine. Rebels route Ukrainian forces at Donetsk

[Sabine Grant]

Two days later and despite of your frequently posting during those 2 days, Thief of Fire, it appears you have not addressed this :

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...orces-at-Donetsk&p=70855&viewfull=1#post70855

To refresh your memory, my contention is that Russia violated Article 6 of the Treaty of Partition. Your counter claim to my contention having been this :

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...orces-at-Donetsk&p=70492&viewfull=1#post70492

Ukraine had no legitimate government in Kiev. They had some neo nazi thugs and various others that had no right to be governing.

What you won't explain is why you are such a big fan of these thugs, who were murdering people, and why you won't condemn what they did.

Your whole argument is based on the premise that the thugs in Kiev were a legitimate government.

I will ask you to pay attention to the content of my linked to reply to your counter claim while addressing my questions :

Are you implying that the removal of the head of the executive branch meant that the legislative branch or Parliament (as part of the Ukrainian government) is to be included as a non legitimately elected Government? In what fashion or manner did the opposition to Yanukovych and described as Nazis take over the Ukrainian Parliament? In what fashion would the Ukrainian Parliament have been "thugs murdering people"?

You are aware, I hope, that when mentioning the term "Government", it certainly includes 3 branches known as the executive, legislative and judiciary.

I will await for you to demonstrate that the Ukrainian Parliament as the legislative branch of the Government became "illegal" due to the removal of Yanukovitch.

By Thief of Fire : We had a bunch of nationalist thugs who America had essentially brought into power, illegally, who were and are persecuting Russians.

Please ,document in what fashion the Ukrainian Parliamentary members were "nationalist thugs who America had essentially brought into power, illegally, who were and are persecuting Russians".

By Thief of Fire :Russia was no more obligated to deal with these thugs than America is to go and talk to ISIS.

Russia ignored the reality that there were no "thugs" in the Ukrainian Parliament who voted and passed a resolution to hold early Presidential elections in May and further supported the removal of the head of the executive branch. If you wish to pursue your portraying of an illegal Government in the hands of "thugs who murder people" and "Nazis", I will ask you to document which Parliamentary members were "Nazis" and "thugs murdering people".

By Thief of Fire :All the people arguing for "invasion" are telling us we should have recognized these murdering thugs. But these people won't come out and say that.

Again, document which Parliamentary members were "murdering thugs" while you will need to pay attention to how the legislative branch voted.

By Thief of Fire : But everything they write asks us to accept that nothing had happened in Kiev and that the democratically elected government was still in power

Again, are you under the impression that the legislative branch is not part of a democratically elected government? Or that the Parliament is just chicken liver and void of any power as a legitimate branch of the Government?

As to you inferring earlier that I support " Nazis and thugs who murder people", let me suggest you cut down on resorting to flames. Whether they be directed at me or any other registered TFT member.

 

[barbos]

We have been over this.

Oh, I didn't realise. Can you just post what you put last time about why the result was 97.45% in favour in a supposedly fair and balanced referendum?

Tatars are small minority

12%. According to the referendum results, only 2.5% didn't vote in favour. So that's 9.5% voting in favour, according to the Russian Army.

Then there is ethnic Ukrainians at just under 25%. So combined we have at least 37% of the population with no particular tie to Russia, voting overwhelmingly 34.5% vs 2.5% to be annexed by Russia. Or so the Russian army says.

So, that's 3) and 7). Any more?

Of these who voted ~96% said Yes. But not 100% voted, I think it was around 90 or something
and ~30% of tatars were for leaving Ukraine. So yes math adds up just fine.
So stop this bullshit.
You know damn well that referendum was fine.
Even incompetent idiots in US government realize that Crimea left fair and square.
It's over, there is no going back, even most these who voted No will not want to go back.

 

[Togo]

Oh, I didn't realise. Can you just post what you put last time about why the result was 97.45% in favour in a supposedly fair and balanced referendum?

Tatars are small minority

12%. According to the referendum results, only 2.5% didn't vote in favour. So that's 9.5% voting in favour, according to the Russian Army.

Then there is ethnic Ukrainians at just under 25%. So combined we have at least 37% of the population with no particular tie to Russia, voting overwhelmingly 34.5% vs 2.5% to be annexed by Russia. Or so the Russian army says.

So, that's 3) and 7). Any more?

If these who voted ~96% said Yes. But not 100% voted, I think it was around 90 or something
and ~30% of tatars were for leaving Ukraine. So yes math adds up just fine.
So stop this bullshit.
You know damn well that referendum was fine.

It doesn't remotely add up. 12% Tartars, 25% Ukrainians, is 37% of the electorate. According to the Russian Army the result was 97.45% in favour of annexation by Russia.

 

[dystopian]

Of these who voted ~96% said Yes. But not 100% voted, I think it was around 90 or something
and ~30% of tatars were for leaving Ukraine. So yes math adds up just fine.
So stop this bullshit.
You know damn well that referendum was fine.

Are you forgetting the *impossible* voter turnout of 123% in Sevastopol? Or the various other instances of obvious fraud taking place? It is blatantly obvious the referendum was a complete sham.

 

[thief of fire]

Two days later and despite of your frequently posting during those 2 days, Thief of Fire, it appears you have not addressed this :

If you think the government was legit, then feel free to make your case.

 

[thief of fire]

Of these who voted ~96% said Yes. But not 100% voted, I think it was around 90 or something

I think a little over 80% voted.
You have absolute Chaos in Kiev, and mostly Russians in Crimea. No surprise they voted to go with Russia.
Except some people find this surprising. Go figure.
Apparently with a majority of Russians in Crimea, and the coup installed regime in Kiev who were persecuting Russians and had banned the Russian language, these people expect us to believe that Crimeans would have voted to go with Ukraine.
It's pretty idiotic to think such a thing.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Two days later and despite of your frequently posting during those 2 days, Thief of Fire, it appears you have not addressed this :

If you think the government was legit, then feel free to make your case.

I already did...you have not addressed it. And of course, dismissal on your part of what was presented to you and my questions. While (once more) quote mining.

 

[thief of fire]

If you think the government was legit, then feel free to make your case.

I already did...you have not addressed it. .

No, you just asked a lot of questions of me rather than making your case.

 

[barbos]

Oh, I didn't realise. Can you just post what you put last time about why the result was 97.45% in favour in a supposedly fair and balanced referendum?

Tatars are small minority

12%. According to the referendum results, only 2.5% didn't vote in favour. So that's 9.5% voting in favour, according to the Russian Army.

Then there is ethnic Ukrainians at just under 25%. So combined we have at least 37% of the population with no particular tie to Russia, voting overwhelmingly 34.5% vs 2.5% to be annexed by Russia. Or so the Russian army says.

So, that's 3) and 7). Any more?

If these who voted ~96% said Yes. But not 100% voted, I think it was around 90 or something
and ~30% of tatars were for leaving Ukraine. So yes math adds up just fine.
So stop this bullshit.
You know damn well that referendum was fine.

It doesn't remotely add up. 12% Tartars, 25% Ukrainians, is 37% of the electorate. According to the Russian Army the result was 97.45% in favour of annexation by Russia.

You are a testament to the fact that americans (and british) suck at math.
Reminded me one british PhD student who did not understand sqrt(N) rule, that was ridiculous.

 

[barbos]

Of these who voted ~96% said Yes. But not 100% voted, I think it was around 90 or something

I think a little over 80% voted.
You have absolute Chaos in Kiev, and mostly Russians in Crimea. No surprise they voted to go with Russia.
Except some people find this surprising. Go figure.
Apparently with a majority of Russians in Crimea, and the coup installed regime in Kiev who were persecuting Russians and had banned the Russian language, these people expect us to believe that Crimeans would have voted to go with Ukraine.
It's pretty idiotic to think such a thing.

You're right, 83.1% took part in referendum and 96.77 said yes.
so it's 80.4% who said Yes, the rest boycotted the referendum which means they were effectively saying No.
90% participation was in Sevastopol and 96% of them said Yes.

 

[Jayjay]

Of these who voted ~96% said Yes. But not 100% voted, I think it was around 90 or something

I think a little over 80% voted.
You have absolute Chaos in Kiev, and mostly Russians in Crimea. No surprise they voted to go with Russia.
Except some people find this surprising. Go figure.
Apparently with a majority of Russians in Crimea, and the coup installed regime in Kiev who were persecuting Russians and had banned the Russian language, these people expect us to believe that Crimeans would have voted to go with Ukraine.
It's pretty idiotic to think such a thing.

And that's a strawman. What he is saying is not that more than 50% would not have voted to join Russia in a fair referendum, he's saying that it's not anywhere near the imaginary 97% that Russia's propaganda and those who parrot it in the West are claiming. And as for 97% approval rating and 80% turnout, those are just numbers thrown by the Russian military who orchestrated the referendum. Considering all the other lies from Russia and total lack of transparency (except for the ballot boxes of course) that 80% claim is hardly believable.

 

[barbos]

Case closed!

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08...rnance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/
http://www.bbg.gov/wp-content/media/2014/06/Ukraine-research-brief.pdf

Crimean residents are almost universally positive toward Russia. At least nine-in-ten have confidence in Putin (93%) and say Russia is playing a positive role in Crimea (92%). Confidence in Obama is almost negligible at 4%, and just 2% think the U.S. is having a good influence on the way things are going on the Crimean peninsula.

Case closed!

 

[bilby]

I'm sure someone has already observed this, but the thread title is kinda funny if you read it as the rebels helpfully showing the Ukrainians a route to where they were supposed to be going.

Yeah, I am pretty sure the title should say "Rebels rout Ukrainian forces...". Of course, 'route' is a homophone for 'root', which is Aussie slang for 'fuck', so I guess it is possible that "Rebels root Ukrainian forces..." was intended, in which case :laughing-smiley-014

 

[Jayjay]

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08...rnance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/
http://www.bbg.gov/wp-content/media/2014/06/Ukraine-research-brief.pdf

Crimean residents are almost universally positive toward Russia. At least nine-in-ten have confidence in Putin (93%) and say Russia is playing a positive role in Crimea (92%). Confidence in Obama is almost negligible at 4%, and just 2% think the U.S. is having a good influence on the way things are going on the Crimean peninsula.

And also:

In Ukraine’s west, which includes the central region around Kyiv (Kiev), as well as portions of the country that border Poland, Slovakia and Hungary, more than nine-in-ten (93%) think their nation should remain unified. A smaller majority (70%) in the country’s east – which includes areas along the Black Sea and the border with Russia – also prefer unity. Only in the breakaway territory of Crimea do more than half (54%) voice support for the right to secede.

So, only 54% of Crimeans who according to you had just voted by 97% (or 80%) to secede and join Russian, think that they had right to secede?? Are you saying that at least 26% of Crimeans are so schizophrenic that they would say they had no right to secede, but supported secession anyway?

Case closed indeed.

As for the eastern regions where Russia played exactly the same game, 70% think Ukraine should have stayed united. The Russian "separatists" who destabilized Eastern Ukraine had less than 30% support before things really got nasty.

 

[barbos]

Jayjay not according to me, according to Pew. Take it with them.
But my guess would be they took that poll at different times.
Because that would be stupid to ask about "right to secede" after referendum.
And things were changing toward Russia fast

 

[barbos]

Bottom line, Obama is probably less popular in Crimea than in Taliban.
Which is kinda schizophrenic too, considering that Obama is largely responsible for Crimea managing to get back to Mother Russia.
The same way Finns like Lenin, because despite being murderous SOB he let you go.

 

[barbos]

I think a little over 80% voted.
You have absolute Chaos in Kiev, and mostly Russians in Crimea. No surprise they voted to go with Russia.
Except some people find this surprising. Go figure.
Apparently with a majority of Russians in Crimea, and the coup installed regime in Kiev who were persecuting Russians and had banned the Russian language, these people expect us to believe that Crimeans would have voted to go with Ukraine.
It's pretty idiotic to think such a thing.

And that's a strawman. What he is saying is not that more than 50% would not have voted to join Russia in a fair referendum, he's saying that it's not anywhere near the imaginary 97% that Russia's propaganda and those who parrot it in the West are claiming. And as for 97% approval rating and 80% turnout, those are just numbers thrown by the Russian military who orchestrated the referendum. Considering all the other lies from Russia and total lack of transparency (except for the ballot boxes of course) that 80% claim is hardly believable.

Pew Research and Gallup are liars too?

 

[Ford]

So all western media are in the tank for Obama and print nothing but lies about Russia, until such time as they print something the Putin Cheer Squad likes. Then it's "case closed!"


The guys who used to run Pravda back in the old Soviet days would be proud to know someone is carrying on their legacy.

 

[thief of fire]

I think a little over 80% voted.
You have absolute Chaos in Kiev, and mostly Russians in Crimea. No surprise they voted to go with Russia.
Except some people find this surprising. Go figure.
Apparently with a majority of Russians in Crimea, and the coup installed regime in Kiev who were persecuting Russians and had banned the Russian language, these people expect us to believe that Crimeans would have voted to go with Ukraine.
It's pretty idiotic to think such a thing.

And that's a strawman. What he is saying is not that more than 50% would not have voted to join Russia in a fair referendum, he's saying that it's not anywhere near the imaginary 97% that Russia's propaganda and those who parrot it in the West are claiming. And as for 97% approval rating and 80% turnout, those are just numbers thrown by the Russian military who orchestrated the referendum. Considering all the other lies from Russia and total lack of transparency (except for the ballot boxes of course) that 80% claim is hardly believable.

Easily believable if we remember what was going on in Kiev at that time.
If we did not have the chaos in Kiev then I don't think we would have got 80% voting yes, but in that environment it's believable.

 

[thief of fire]

So all western media are in the tank for Obama and print nothing but lies about Russia, until such time as they print something the Putin Cheer Squad likes. Then it's "case closed!"


The guys who used to run Pravda back in the old Soviet days would be proud to know someone is carrying on their legacy.

Vaclav Klaus: the West’s lies about Russia are monstrous

I spent most of my life in a communist Czechoslovakia under Soviet domination. But I differentiate between the Soviet Union and Russia. Those who are not able to understand the difference are simply not looking with open eyes.

The West on the wrong path

We cannot afford to look at Russia through the eyes of the American Tea Party