Disaster greater than San Andreas to hit LA by 2020

[ksen]

All info from here:

Which countries are those?

According to Wikipedia they include such hellholes as Sweden,

None; set by annual collective bargaining contracts

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Norway,

None; wages normally fall within a national scale negotiated by labor, employers, and local governments

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Iceland,

None; minimum wages are negotiated in various collectively bargained agreements and applied automatically to all employees in those occupations, regardless of union membership; while the agreements can be either industry- or sector-wide, and in some cases firm-specific, the minimum wage levels are occupation-specific

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Singapore,

None.[8] However, two exceptions were made recently: 1) Cleaner jobs to have a minimum wage of $1,000/month effective January 2014.[196] 2) Security guards to have a minimum wage of $1,100/month effective September 2016

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the United Arab Emirates,

None

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Austria,

None; instead, nationwide collective bargaining agreements set minimum wages by job classification for each industry and provide for a minimum wage of €1,000 per month—Wages where no such collective agreements exist, such as for domestic workers, janitorial staff, and au pairs, are regulated in pertinent law and are generally lower than those covered by collective bargaining

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Italy,

None; instead set through collective bargaining agreements on a sector-by-sector basis

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Lichtenstein

None

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and Denmark.

None; instead, negotiated between unions and employer associations; the average minimum wage for all private and public sector collective bargaining agreements was approximately DKK 110 ($20) per hour, exclusive of pension benefits.

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It's my understanding there are countries that have no minimum wage at all

You're understanding is wrong about 7 of the 9 countries you listed. They do have minimum wages. They are negotiated between business and organized labor.

Of the two you were right about: United Arab Emirates and Liechtenstein, one is a hellhole and the other is a tiny microstate.

I would be willing to trade State MW laws for a strong labor movement that is able to negotiate minimum wages for entire sectors.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Small gradual increases in minimum wage have been applied in the past. These small gradual increases have shown to be, at a minimum, non-toxic to the overall economy. Humongous, fast increases to minimum wage have never been applied anywhere before (to my knowledge) so their effects on the economy are unknown. The unknown can be scary.

We do know that lots of big changes hurt the economy in the short term which is why new laws and regulations that are likely to cause a big change are usually phased in slowly.

Does this sufficiently answer the question of why we don't need a $50 minimum wage right now?
Will the right wingers continue to insist they are unaware of the simplest economic principals that investors and capital are afraid of changes? Why are they playing silly games like this?

American Samoa. The results were bad.

- - - Updated - - -

You're understanding is wrong about 7 of the 9 countries you listed. They do have minimum wages. They are negotiated between business and organized labor.

Of the two you were right about: United Arab Emirates and Liechtenstein, one is a hellhole and the other is a tiny microstate.

I would be willing to trade State MW laws for a strong labor movement that is able to negotiate minimum wages for entire sectors.

Negotiated between labor and business is not mandated by law. He's right, no minimum wage.


Anyway, 538 has a good article that expands upon why I don't think this is going to be a disaster:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/las-new-minimum-wage-isnt-worth-anywhere-close-to-15/

 

[ksen]

You're understanding is wrong about 7 of the 9 countries you listed. They do have minimum wages. They are negotiated between business and organized labor.

Of the two you were right about: United Arab Emirates and Liechtenstein, one is a hellhole and the other is a tiny microstate.

I would be willing to trade State MW laws for a strong labor movement that is able to negotiate minimum wages for entire sectors.

Negotiated between labor and business is not mandated by law. He's right, no minimum wage.

He didn't specify state required minimum wages. He said they have no minimum wages "at all."

That is wrong.

Anyway, 538 has a good article that expands upon why I don't think this is going to be a disaster:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/las-new-minimum-wage-isnt-worth-anywhere-close-to-15/

Uh, you said in post #2 that you didn't think it was going to have any impact at all. Now you're back in the disaster camp?

eta: strike that last part of my post. I read yours wrong.

 

[Axulus]

There is obviously no down side to raising the minimum wage so why don't we make it $350 hr?

If it's alright to cross the road, why not lie on the road and take a nap there?

(That's called a 'slippery slope' argument)

So you are saying bad things happen if you take a nap there? And bad things happen if we make it $350/hr? What bad things would those be? How do you know none of those bad things happen at $15/hr?

 

[dismal]

You're understanding is wrong about 7 of the 9 countries you listed. They do have minimum wages.

It was the word "None" that misled me.

 

[arkirk]

I'm going on the record now to predict that there are restaurants open today that will end up being closed by 2021 after this price hike kicks in.

Thanks, Obama.

I've been cooking at home for years and can't afford to go to those restaurants anyway. Not to worry...you can learn to cook for yourself too!

 

[arkirk]

If Reagan had not destroyed all our unions, we could have the same thing as these more worker friendly countries. The wealthy in our country seem to have an actual animus toward working people...a palpable hatred...or they would not act as they do.

 

[zorq]

American Samoa. The results were bad.

The situation with American Samoa isn't even very clear because the economy of American Samoa is based almost entirely around the export of one commodity, canned tuna. Unfortunately, the price of that one commodity sank a lot at about the same time that the minimum wage went up. It still remains unclear weather the unemployment in American Samoa is due mostly to the wage increase or mostly to the depressed price of tuna.


But thanks for bringing that up.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

American Samoa. The results were bad.

The situation with American Samoa isn't even very clear because the economy of American Samoa is based almost entirely around the export of one commodity, canned tuna. Unfortunately, the price of that one commodity sank a lot at about the same time that the minimum wage went up. It still remains unclear weather the unemployment in American Samoa is due mostly to the wage increase or mostly to the depressed price of tuna.


But thanks for bringing that up.

We can compare it to next door where there was no minimum wage increase.

 

[zorq]

The situation with American Samoa isn't even very clear because the economy of American Samoa is based almost entirely around the export of one commodity, canned tuna. Unfortunately, the price of that one commodity sank a lot at about the same time that the minimum wage went up. It still remains unclear weather the unemployment in American Samoa is due mostly to the wage increase or mostly to the depressed price of tuna.


But thanks for bringing that up.

We can compare it to next door where there was no minimum wage increase.

It's worth stating that I miss-spoke a little. The price of canned tuna is dropping because of decreased demand but another factor is the increasing cost of fresh tuna affecting the canned tuna market which is really squeezing the canned tuna industry.

We could compare with the unemployment rate in Samoan Samoa. I couldn't find any figures in my cursory google search, for example

http://www.indexmundi.com/samoa/unemployment_rate.html

But the unemployment rate in Samoan samoa was about 5% in 2011 I don't have any more recent figures.
https://www.quandl.com/collections/samoa/samoa-economy-data

When we do find out the unemployment figures would still have to factor in the fact that Samoan Samoa has more than three times the population and likely a more diversified economy.

 

[laughing dog]

$50 straw man,really?

Hey, it's progress. In the previous years, it was $1,000.

 

[laughing dog]

The situation with American Samoa isn't even very clear because the economy of American Samoa is based almost entirely around the export of one commodity, canned tuna. Unfortunately, the price of that one commodity sank a lot at about the same time that the minimum wage went up. It still remains unclear weather the unemployment in American Samoa is due mostly to the wage increase or mostly to the depressed price of tuna.


But thanks for bringing that up.

We can compare it to next door where there was no minimum wage increase.

American Samoa is a group of small islands and atolls in the Pacific Ocean: there is nothing next door to it.

 

[bilby]

We can compare it to next door where there was no minimum wage increase.

American Samoa is a group of small islands and atolls in the Pacific Ocean: there is nothing next door to it.

Yes there is; Samoa (aka Western Samoa) is right next door - indeed most of Upolu (the second largest island in W. Samoa, and location of the capital, Apia) is closer to Pago Pago (The capital of Am. Samoa - it sits under the letter "R" in 'American' on the below map) than Tau (The easternmost inhabited Am. Samoan island - Where Luma and Maia are) is.

 

[DBT]

If Reagan had not destroyed all our unions, we could have the same thing as these more worker friendly countries. The wealthy in our country seem to have an actual animus toward working people...a palpable hatred...or they would not act as they do.

It's probably the old pecking order game, some of the super rich and powerful probably have a tendency to believe they are worthy of their position by the token of their wealth, intelligence and acumen, which of course places them firmly up there amongst the elite of Humankind....

 

[laughing dog]

American Samoa is a group of small islands and atolls in the Pacific Ocean: there is nothing next door to it.

Yes there is; Samoa (aka Western Samoa) is right next door - indeed most of Upolu (the second largest island in W. Samoa, and location of the capital, Apia) is closer to Pago Pago (The capital of Am. Samoa - it sits under the letter "R" in 'American' on the below map) than Tau (The easternmost inhabited Am. Samoan island - Where Luma and Maia are) is.

In the US, "right next door" excludes the possibility of an expanse of nothingness. For example, that state of Montana is not "right next door" to the state of Minnesota or Nebraska but is "right next door" to the state of Idaho.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We can compare it to next door where there was no minimum wage increase.

American Samoa is a group of small islands and atolls in the Pacific Ocean: there is nothing next door to it.

Do you disagree just to disagree?

The very fact that it's named "American Samoa" strongly suggests there's another part. I said "next door" because I forgot the name of the other country.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes there is; Samoa (aka Western Samoa) is right next door - indeed most of Upolu (the second largest island in W. Samoa, and location of the capital, Apia) is closer to Pago Pago (The capital of Am. Samoa - it sits under the letter "R" in 'American' on the below map) than Tau (The easternmost inhabited Am. Samoan island - Where Luma and Maia are) is.

In the US, "right next door" excludes the possibility of an expanse of nothingness. For example, that state of Montana is not "right next door" to the state of Minnesota or Nebraska but is "right next door" to the state of Idaho.

"Next door" refers to the closest neighbor, it doesn't require them to be touching. Your example with states is invalid because you are skipping over a state--that's clearly not next door.

However, if you head west from American Samoa you come to Samoa in probably around an hour (Google can't find a route so I'm guessing how a ship would fare), you pass nothing else in the process. I would call that next door.

 

[laughing dog]

"Next door" refers to the closest neighbor, it doesn't require them to be touching. Your example with states is invalid because you are skipping over a state--that's clearly not next door.

No Italian I know thinks Sicily or Malta is "next door" to Italy.

"
However, if you head west from American Samoa you come to Samoa in probably around an hour (Google can't find a route so I'm guessing how a ship would fare), you pass nothing else in the process. I would call that next door.

You can call it a tuna fish sandwich but it doesn't make it so.

 

[bilby]

In the US, "right next door" excludes the possibility of an expanse of nothingness. For example, that state of Montana is not "right next door" to the state of Minnesota or Nebraska but is "right next door" to the state of Idaho.

"Next door" refers to the closest neighbor, it doesn't require them to be touching. Your example with states is invalid because you are skipping over a state--that's clearly not next door.

However, if you head west from American Samoa you come to Samoa in probably around an hour (Google can't find a route so I'm guessing how a ship would fare), you pass nothing else in the process. I would call that next door.

There is a scale bar in the bottom right hand corner of the map I posted. From landfall to landfall is about 60km; to take an hour to get there, you would need to be making less than half a knot.

On a calm day, you could get from Western to American Samoa in under an hour, rowing a child's inflatable dinghy. A modern cruise ship steaming past the islands could easily do the journey in 20 minutes (although they would likely not be in that much of a hurry).

That's because the two nations are right next door to each other.

Of course, they have radically different economies, despite their geographic proximity.

American Samoa is a very small colonial outpost of the USA; while Western Samoa is a much larger (3x the population) and independent nation, with strong trading and economic ties to other nations in the region, notably New Zealand and Australia. Indeed in 2011, Samoa moved the International Date Line, so that they would be on the same weekday as those major trading partners. So your short trip would actually take around minus 23 hours to complete; If you set off from Samoa at noon on Saturday the 14th, you would arrive in American Samoa before 1pm on Friday the 13th.

So you are both wrong, and you are both right - they are right next door, and they are not directly comparable economies.

 

[Trausti]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-los-angeles-minimum-wage-unions-20150526-story.html

But Rusty Hicks, who heads the county Federation of Labor and helps lead the Raise the Wage coalition, said Tuesday night that companies with workers represented by unions should have leeway to negotiate a wage below that mandated by the law.
"With a collective bargaining agreement, a business owner and the employees negotiate an agreement that works for them both. The agreement allows each party to prioritize what is important to them," Hicks said in a statement. "This provision gives the parties the option, the freedom, to negotiate that agreement. And that is a good thing."

Isn't this one of the arguments generally used against the minimum wage? That people should be free to negotiate what they feel is best for them? Was the purpose of this simply to exclude non-union workers from getting jobs?