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Discrimination -- the reality

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All in how you write the headline, isn't it? "Only 16% of hiring managers report ever having been asked to prioritize non-white applicants" doesn't have quite the same ring.
What per cent of hiring managers being told to discriminate by race is an acceptable per cent?

EDIT: Remember when ZiprHead posted an article with a headline claiming a Florida bill required students to register their political views with the state?

When I objected to ZiprHead using that title for his thread title, I was...politely rebuffed. As it turns out even Salon -- S A L O N -- agreed (albeit after a year) that its headline was false.

Never happened here though.
 
I said people should stop discriminating by race.

And how does that look exactly? How does it manifest itself in the 1960's when black people were denied promotions, positions in high skilled Jobs or flat out not hired?
You see, this is why I asked for clarification. You apparently had a specific time period in mind.

My answer is still the same: stop discriminating by race. In fact...I find myself in agreement with your own answer:

they could have enforced the laws by punishing people who discriminated against Americans by race.
 
Know how the NAACP could have been avoided? Arrest the entire management staff in the store shown below & then go to the business owners home and arrest that asshole too.

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As a white man who has always benefited from the advantages the system has afforded me, the idea of "reverse discrimination" has always seemed more than a little specious. To claim it's suddenly unfair to consider race as a factor in hiring, even more so.

I know my life began with a head start which I was granted simply because of the happenstance of birth. I didn't create these circumstances, but I'm not arrogant enough to believe it was because of some innate quality I possess.

In my youngest days, being socially aware meant providing two water fountains, with a sign above one which read "WHITE" and the other "COLORED". It takes a very long time to wash this kind of systemic discrimination out of the economic structure.
 
I said people should stop discriminating by race.

And how does that look exactly? How does it manifest itself in the 1960's when black people were denied promotions, positions in high skilled Jobs or flat out not hired?
You do realize that the 60s were 2 generations ago, right?
Tom
Ah, so all that wealth just disappeared, eh?

As opposed to creating entire neighborhoods of economic desperation, where two/three generations of kids have grown up with very little hope of gaining solvency because the system is still heavily weighted against them, due to being in direct competition with two generations of suburban white kids who grew up in relative affluence, in an economic game that heavily favors those with inherited investments?

Suppose someone stole your car and gave it to a friend, then died. Would you accept the argument that you should not be allowed to seek the return of or compensation for the car? Since the original thief is now dead, the person who they gave it to is now the fair and legal owner of the stolen car?
 
I said people should stop discriminating by race.

And how does that look exactly? How does it manifest itself in the 1960's when black people were denied promotions, positions in high skilled Jobs or flat out not hired?
You do realize that the 60s were 2 generations ago, right?
Tom

Yes. You do realize that I asked a question about what should have been done in the 60's right?
 
As a white man who has always benefited from the advantages the system has afforded me, the idea of "reverse discrimination" has always seemed more than a little specious. To claim it's suddenly unfair to consider race as a factor in hiring, even more so.

I know my life began with a head start which I was granted simply because of the happenstance of birth. I didn't create these circumstances, but I'm not arrogant enough to believe it was because of some innate quality I possess.

In my youngest days, being socially aware meant providing two water fountains, with a sign above one which read "WHITE" and the other "COLORED". It takes a very long time to wash this kind of systemic discrimination out of the economic structure.

I respect that however I disagree. We wouldn't be having this reverse discrimination discussion if the racist people were not allowed to keep their status. Discrimination should have been a felony level criminal offense until later done away with when it's no longer necessary rather than force racist people to appear less racist so they can keep their status.

What I mean is, yes any discrimination (even the alleged reverse ones) should be unacceptable. Too many concession were made which resulted in a weaker and less effective attempt to end discrimination.
 
As a white man who has always benefited from the advantages the system has afforded me, the idea of "reverse discrimination" has always seemed more than a little specious. To claim it's suddenly unfair to consider race as a factor in hiring, even more so.

I know my life began with a head start which I was granted simply because of the happenstance of birth. I didn't create these circumstances, but I'm not arrogant enough to believe it was because of some innate quality I possess.

In my youngest days, being socially aware meant providing two water fountains, with a sign above one which read "WHITE" and the other "COLORED". It takes a very long time to wash this kind of systemic discrimination out of the economic structure.

I respect that however I disagree. We wouldn't be having this reverse discrimination discussion if the racist people were not allowed to keep their status. Discrimination should have been a felony level criminal offense until later done away with when it's no longer necessary rather than force racist people to appear less racist so they can keep their status.

What I mean is, yes any discrimination (even the alleged reverse ones) should be unacceptable. Too many concession were made which resulted in a weaker and less effective attempt to end discrimination.
One of the lessons that was pounded into us at Emperor Training School was, "never give an order you do not expect to be obeyed." That goes along with another lesson, "Don't prescribe a cure worse than the disease."

The reason we are discussing this is because racism is now seen as a societal evil and thus unacceptable. In the colored only water fountain days, it was considered a rational way of thinking. It was supported by science and the law. That kind of thing has lost the support of science and law, but if reason could solve society's problems, life would have reached perfection a long time ago.
 
As a white man who has always benefited from the advantages the system has afforded me, the idea of "reverse discrimination" has always seemed more than a little specious. To claim it's suddenly unfair to consider race as a factor in hiring, even more so.

I know my life began with a head start which I was granted simply because of the happenstance of birth. I didn't create these circumstances, but I'm not arrogant enough to believe it was because of some innate quality I possess.

In my youngest days, being socially aware meant providing two water fountains, with a sign above one which read "WHITE" and the other "COLORED". It takes a very long time to wash this kind of systemic discrimination out of the economic structure.

I respect that however I disagree. We wouldn't be having this reverse discrimination discussion if the racist people were not allowed to keep their status. Discrimination should have been a felony level criminal offense until later done away with when it's no longer necessary rather than force racist people to appear less racist so they can keep their status.

What I mean is, yes any discrimination (even the alleged reverse ones) should be unacceptable. Too many concession were made which resulted in a weaker and less effective attempt to end discrimination.
One of the lessons that was pounded into us at Emperor Training School was, "never give an order you do not expect to be obeyed." That goes along with another lesson, "Don't prescribe a cure worse than the disease."

The reason we are discussing this is because racism is now seen as a societal evil and thus unacceptable. In the colored only water fountain days, it was considered a rational way of thinking. It was supported by science and the law. That kind of thing has lost the support of science and law, but if reason could solve society's problems, life would have reached perfection a long time ago.

That's rubbish. Hundreds of thousands of people died in the civil war over slavery. The number given is in the 600,000's. You mean to tell me after all that no one was familiar with the concept that racism was unacceptable? I doubt that. What should have been done during the rebuilding process was the slaves not being left to the mercy of their former masters. Black people should not have been given reparations or land but the racist white people should have been given the opportunity to get over it or fuck off to jail and let someone else do it.

Edit: The error of letting the racist pricks keep their status is what things like the civil rights movement, Affirmative action and the current violence in the black community is a result of. If we let black people build and hold status (remember black wall street?) we would have better race relations today. but nooooooooooo
 
And then we have ignorant fucks talk about how "racism ended a long time ago, things are cool now". Sure, they are but it definitely would have been better if black people had a better start after being freed rather than keep our oppressors in power and protected by the federal government.
 
There is also nothing in the article that rules it out. You don't know the question wording and you don't know what the authors meant by 'deprioritize'. There is no evidence that the claim is false.
I know what is actually reported in the article. You have provided no evidence except pedantic reasoning to support the OP claim.At a minimum, the OP claim is bullshit.
The OP (written by Loren) did not claim managers had been told to stop hiring white men. The OP claimed there was discrimination, and he linked to an article with that title.

You are the one choosing to believe that that the wording in the body of the article contradicts the title of the article. They are not contradictory.
Sure Jan, whatever helps you sleep at night.
Metaphor said:
“Deprioritise” could also mean to stop automatically ranking white men first. Which would mean they are not being told to discriminate
I suppose it could mean that, though I would find that a strange way to put it.
So ?
So I find that less plausible than the other alternatives.
Fascinating that you'd think that is at all relevant.
Metaphor said:
Discriminating against white people (and white men in particular) is also consistent with the other findings in the survey, like 52% saying their own company practises "reverse" discrimination and 48% say that often or very often they "pass on qualified candidates because they are not "diverse enough"

The former needs more explanation, and the latter does not mean necessarily mean discrimination.
The former means discrimination. "Reverse" discrimination is discrimination. The latter also means discrimination.
Well, you'd be right if the managers and the report use the English language like you do. Apparently they do not (otherwise you'd not be mistaken about the meaning of "deprioritization).

Passing on qualified candidates because of unchangeable demographic characteristics (like their whiteness and sex) is discrimination.
You are assuming that the other candidates are unqualifed. Less qualified does not mean unqualified.
 
Objective rational thinkers use facts to inform their opinions on social and political topics.

Ideologues use their social and political opinions to twist the facts. We see a vivid demonstration of that in this thread. Let's start by reviewing some actual facts.

https://www.history.com/news/slavery-profitable-southern-economy said:
If the Confederacy had been a separate nation, it would have ranked as the fourth richest in the world at the start of the Civil War. The slave economy had been very good to American prosperity. By the start of the war, the South was producing 75 percent of the world’s cotton and creating more millionaires per capita in the Mississippi River valley than anywhere in the nation. Enslaved workers represented Southern planters’ most significant investment—and the bulk of their wealth.

https://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/georgia-in-1860/ said:
The per capita wealth of white Georgians in 1860, for example, was nearly double that of New Yorkers or Pennsylvanians. On average, slaveholders in the state owned property worth nearly five times that of a typical landholder in the North. Enslaved people in Georgia were worth more than $400 million in 1860, and accounted for at least half the state’s total wealth.

Despite this reality, one can find many mistruths or half-truths on-line. Did the cotton gin save labor and reduce the need for slaves? Obviously not — it increased total production enormously, and more slaves than ever were needed. Unable to import more slaves, the birth of baby slaves brought economic joy to plantation owners.

Slavery in America made all of America poorer.
I can only imagine what a great place this would have been if the owner had been a little richer due to lack of slavery.

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As usual, you are determined to not get the point, or perhaps you are simply economically ignorant.

Here is a parallel: war makes everyone poorer, even if certain actors may be temporarily better off. There is a net loss overall.

Who is not getting which point, who is simple, and who is economically ignorant?

Metaphor has found some remarks on-line and twisted them to serve his political agenda. Were enslaved uneducated blacks stooping in the fields less productive, on average, than free white laborers? Sure. Slightly. Did the semi-feudal Southern society inhibit some types of technological or organizational progress? You betcha!

But Metaphor writes "makes everyone poorer." Does he think Jefferson's slaves made Jefferson poorer? That had Jefferson freed his slaves, Jefferson would suddenly have become richer? :) Who knows? Who cares? If challenged, Metaphor will make dozens of posts defending his claim based on some comma in his post or some alternative definition of 'everyone' I've overlooked![/sarcasm]

I read the article. It reports that 16% of managers report they have been told to “deprioritise” hiring white men. Literally interpreted, the OP claim to “stop hiring” is false.
The OP put in a direct link to a webpage. That is the title of the webpage. Also, you do not know that the 'stop hiring' claim is false. The article does not reveal the question wording and the answer options.
There is nothing in the article that says anyone was told to stop hiring.
There is also nothing in the article that rules it out. You don't know the question wording and you don't know what the authors meant by 'deprioritize'. There is no evidence that the claim is false.

:confused2: I hold in my hand one of John le Carre's novels. Nothing there rules out either possibility. I hold an image processing textbook in the other hand. Like the novel, and like OP's cited article with its click-bait title, it has nothing to rule out that Sean Hannity has syphilis.

Is this our new standard of evidence? Some random article on the 'Net "has nothing to rule out" that Donald Trump and MTG are stable geniuses?
 
Right. Why are you telling me something I already know?
Because your posts indicate otherwise - "Passing on qualified candidates because of unchangeable demographic characteristics (like their whiteness and sex) is discrimination" - does not mean discrimination if there are other qualified candidates.

BTW, "deprioritizing" the hiring of white men suggests that hiring white men was a priority and is not stopped. In other words, deprioritization might actually mean ending discrimination based on an unchangeable demographic characteristics.
 
Metaphor has found some remarks on-line and twisted them to serve his political agenda. Were enslaved uneducated blacks stooping in the fields less productive, on average, than free white laborers? Sure. Slightly. Did the semi-feudal Southern society inhibit some types of technological or organizational progress? You betcha!

But Metaphor writes "makes everyone poorer." Does he think Jefferson's slaves made Jefferson poorer?
Men are taller than women. That does not mean every man is taller than every woman. "Making everyone poorer" is a statement about the total wealth available. The total wealth available was less.

That had Jefferson freed his slaves, Jefferson would suddenly have become richer? :) Who knows? Who cares? If challenged, Metaphor will make dozens of posts defending his claim based on some comma in his post or some alternative definition of 'everyone' I've overlooked![/sarcasm]
I'm defending it based on ordinary use of language.

I notice your dishonesty in snipping out my war analogy. There are individual profiteers from war. War makes everyone poorer. These are not contradictory statements.


:confused2: I hold in my hand one of John le Carre's novels. Nothing there rules out either possibility. I hold an image processing textbook in the other hand. Like the novel, and like OP's cited article with its click-bait title, it has nothing to rule out that Sean Hannity has syphilis.

Is this our new standard of evidence? Some random article on the 'Net "has nothing to rule out" that Donald Trump and MTG are stable geniuses?
No, that is not our 'new standard of evidence'.

My standard of evidence is to note that the article title claims 1 in 6 managers were told to stop hiring white men. The article goes on to talk about the 1 in 6 figure as talking about 'deprioritising hiring white men'.

To fit laughing dog's narrative, he
* chose to believe the the word 'deprioritise' in the article text was incompatible with or even contradicted the article headline 'stop hiring'
* chose to believe the words in the body of the article over the words in the headline.

I pointed out, no, the words 'stop hiring' and 'deprioritise' are not incompatible, and lauhing dog calling the OP bullshit for this reason, is bullshit.

Your analogy is also irrelevant. A John le Carre novel does not purport to be cataloguing information about hiring practises in America in the 2020s. One would not expect to see either confirmatory or disconfirmatory evidence related to that practise in it.
 
Right. Why are you telling me something I already know?
Because your posts indicate otherwise - "Passing on qualified candidates because of unchangeable demographic characteristics (like their whiteness and sex) is discrimination" - does not mean discrimination if there are other qualified candidates.

Yes. Being passed over because your skin is white is discrimination. Notice I said nothing at all about the qualifications of other candidates. Their fitness is irrelevant. They could turn out to be a million times better than you or grossly and ludicrously less qualified. If you were passed over because of your skin colour, you were discriminated against.

BTW, "deprioritizing" the hiring of white men suggests that hiring white men was a priority and is not stopped.
Is this something you believe? That these companies had a written or unwritten personnel policy indicating they should hire white men as a priority?
 
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