• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Distinguishing between classical music composers

rousseau

Contributor
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
13,508
I know we've got a few musically adept people at this forum so I thought I'd throw this question out there.

I've been listening to classical music pretty heavily for the last few months and I'm curious how others approach the genre in terms of composers. When I'm listening within a period but to different composers sometimes I'll notice a difference in the pace of the music, and sometimes in complexity, but for the most part what I'm listening to sounds fairly samey. I usually don't find that the moods evoked by the music change much, setting aside pace and volume.

So I mean.. are there people out there who swear by some obscure composer's compositions, or do people pretty much just listen to the greats for their technical and emotional skill?
 
I know we've got a few musically adept people at this forum so I thought I'd throw this question out there.

I've been listening to classical music pretty heavily for the last few months and I'm curious how others approach the genre in terms of composers. When I'm listening within a period but to different composers sometimes I'll notice a difference in the pace of the music, and sometimes in complexity, but for the most part what I'm listening to sounds fairly samey. I usually don't find that the moods evoked by the music change much, setting aside pace and volume.

So I mean.. are there people out there who swear by some obscure composer's compositions, or do people pretty much just listen to the greats for their technical and emotional skill?

Some composers are more distinctive than others, but I could definitely pick out some of them from a crowd of contemporaries based on their sound, if I wasn't familiar with the piece.

The emotional impact really only comes after repeated listening for me. The first few times I hear a piece of music, I'm just taking in the general texture and some of the variations, just getting a sense of where the music is going and what it kind of conveys. Over time I'll notice little parts and patterns that carry a particular quality I like, especially in the context of the larger whole, and through re-experiencing those moments in that context a bunch of times I will approach the emotional core of the music as it relates to me as a listener. There are only a handful of compositions that appealed to me immediately with their full force.

It's funny to think of how modern this way of listening is. Back in the day, you were lucky if you got to hear a classical composition played competently more than once or twice. Now, I can listen to the same performance dozens of times, until I have a complete appreciation for all its nuances, without leaving my house. I wonder if contemporary composers structure their music differently as a result of this change, making things more obscure or nuanced because they know people have the opportunity to digest it over multiple listens.
 
What, or who, have you been listening to? I'm kinda assuming you're not listening to anything very modern...

American music education has been strongly German, probably because so many Germans immigrated here in the late 19th century. (I know you're Canadian, and I don't know if music education there differs much from the US)

One of the first things to listen for is ensemble and instrumentation. Is it a large orchestra? Are there many instruments besides strings? Is there a lot of brass, esp trombones and french horns? If those are yes, you're listening to something at least mid to late 19th century.

Next are the basics, melody and harmony, and rhythm.

Are the melodies clear? Are they songlike? Are there many dissonances or ornaments?

Harmony, does it seem straightforward, or does it sometimes surprise. And again, is it dissonant?

Rhythmically, does it stay steady, or are there many devices such as ritards or rubato? I.e. Speeding up, slowing down or indeterminate.
 
Some composers are musically complex, and are best appreciated by those trained in music.
Me, I prefer the 'easy listening' works of Tchaikovsky, Handel, &al.
 
What, or who, have you been listening to? I'm kinda assuming you're not listening to anything very modern...

American music education has been strongly German, probably because so many Germans immigrated here in the late 19th century. (I know you're Canadian, and I don't know if music education there differs much from the US)

One of the first things to listen for is ensemble and instrumentation. Is it a large orchestra? Are there many instruments besides strings? Is there a lot of brass, esp trombones and french horns? If those are yes, you're listening to something at least mid to late 19th century.

Next are the basics, melody and harmony, and rhythm.

Are the melodies clear? Are they songlike? Are there many dissonances or ornaments?

Harmony, does it seem straightforward, or does it sometimes surprise. And again, is it dissonant?

Rhythmically, does it stay steady, or are there many devices such as ritards or rubato? I.e. Speeding up, slowing down or indeterminate.

No, haven't delved into modern stuff much.

I did study and play music when I was younger and understand the basics, just curious what other's opinions are on that specific question: less what's the technical difference, more why do you listen to any given composer? And does it make a great deal of difference to you who the composer is, or are period/instrument more important? That kind of thing

I mean, I wouldn't claim any two composers are exactly the same in all musical qualities, but I do wonder how others experience and engage with the variance that is there. In my experimentation, mostly with the greats so far, I do enjoy a lot of their music and have honed in on specific ensembles (lots of solo piano, string quartets, and cello).. but if I listen to 10 given artists from the classical period, it feels like the experience varies less than you'd expect. If I go further back in time to Baroque this quality seems to increase even more so.
 
What, or who, have you been listening to? I'm kinda assuming you're not listening to anything very modern...

American music education has been strongly German, probably because so many Germans immigrated here in the late 19th century. (I know you're Canadian, and I don't know if music education there differs much from the US)

One of the first things to listen for is ensemble and instrumentation. Is it a large orchestra? Are there many instruments besides strings? Is there a lot of brass, esp trombones and french horns? If those are yes, you're listening to something at least mid to late 19th century.

Next are the basics, melody and harmony, and rhythm.

Are the melodies clear? Are they songlike? Are there many dissonances or ornaments?

Harmony, does it seem straightforward, or does it sometimes surprise. And again, is it dissonant?

Rhythmically, does it stay steady, or are there many devices such as ritards or rubato? I.e. Speeding up, slowing down or indeterminate.

No, haven't delved into modern stuff much.

I did study and play music when I was younger and understand the basics, just curious what other's opinions are on that specific question: less what's the technical difference, more why do you listen to any given composer? And does it make a great deal of difference to you who the composer is, or are period/instrument more important? That kind of thing

I mean, I wouldn't claim any two composers are exactly the same in all musical qualities, but I do wonder how others experience and engage with the variance that is there. In my experimentation, mostly with the greats so far, I do enjoy a lot of their music and have honed in on specific ensembles (lots of solo piano, string quartets, and cello).. but if I listen to 10 given artists from the classical period, it feels like the experience varies less than you'd expect. If I go further back in time to Baroque this quality seems to increase even more so.

Sure, as seyorni pointed out, there's no need for analysis to enjoy music.

As for why any particular composer, it can be for any reason. There's no requirement for justification. Generally, I think it's a good idea to explore the whys, but they don't have to be expressed in technical terms.

If you're listening to ten different composers from the same period, that's a lot. It would be easier with two or three.
 
No, haven't delved into modern stuff much.

I did study and play music when I was younger and understand the basics, just curious what other's opinions are on that specific question: less what's the technical difference, more why do you listen to any given composer? And does it make a great deal of difference to you who the composer is, or are period/instrument more important? That kind of thing

I mean, I wouldn't claim any two composers are exactly the same in all musical qualities, but I do wonder how others experience and engage with the variance that is there. In my experimentation, mostly with the greats so far, I do enjoy a lot of their music and have honed in on specific ensembles (lots of solo piano, string quartets, and cello).. but if I listen to 10 given artists from the classical period, it feels like the experience varies less than you'd expect. If I go further back in time to Baroque this quality seems to increase even more so.

Sure, as seyorni pointed out, there's no need for analysis to enjoy music.

As for why any particular composer, it can be for any reason. There's no requirement for justification. Generally, I think it's a good idea to explore the whys, but they don't have to be expressed in technical terms.

If you're listening to ten different composers from the same period, that's a lot. It would be easier with two or three.

The question isn't so much 'what's the right way to listen to classical music', more-so 'how do you listen to classical music', and especially when it comes to choosing who you're listening to. And if there are trends that people who are really into the genre often follow.

I get the sense from this thread so far that in pre-modern stuff you were either kinda 'the best' or 'not the best but pretty good', but 'distinct' isn't a term that's used a lot.
 
Sure, as seyorni pointed out, there's no need for analysis to enjoy music.

As for why any particular composer, it can be for any reason. There's no requirement for justification. Generally, I think it's a good idea to explore the whys, but they don't have to be expressed in technical terms.

If you're listening to ten different composers from the same period, that's a lot. It would be easier with two or three.

The question isn't so much 'what's the right way to listen to classical music', more-so 'how do you listen to classical music', and especially when it comes to choosing who you're listening to. And if there are trends that people who are really into the genre often follow.

I get the sense from this thread so far that in pre-modern stuff you were either kinda 'the best' or 'not the best but pretty good', but 'distinct' isn't a term that's used a lot.

Sure there are trends. I'm not in the classical scene to the extent to know many, but one such is Mozart era composers. Youtube comments are a good place, especially for Opera.

As for your other point, they seem contradictory. On the one hand, you're grouping similar composers and the other asking for distinction.

Also, I don't listen to as much classical music as I play, excepting concerts. I listen to more jazz. Lately I've been listening to Beethoven's Eroica, because it's my wife's favorite and I don't know it well. Herreweghe has an excellent version.

I play mainly Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Brahms, Debussy and others, right now I'm struggling with a bit of Ives first piano sonata. I don't perform this stuff, it's just for fun.
 
Classical music exists because it was the popular music of it's day. Just like today, prolific song writers became prolific because their last work created a demand for the next one. I don't believe any classical composer was able to live of the earnings of their music. A rich patron who subsidized their lifestyle was critical.

If there is one great difference between classical and contemporary composers, is it is possible to support one's self in comfort by writing music, at least for a small group of them.

If modern technology has had any discernible effect on music, it's in the lengths of the pieces. This has always been the case. The time limit for the acts of an opera was set by how long the candles burned. Intermission was created to give them time to install and light new candles. The most common musical works of today are between 3 and 5 minutes long. This goes back to the days of early recording technology, where the time limit of a single record disk was about 3 minutes. It became the standard radio time limit and record producers would cut any song to fit the time window. Only extraordinary songs such as American Pie and Hey Jude were able to break that barrier. There were many popular songs which released in two versions, a short one for single records and a long one for the album.

When you've only got three minutes to make your point, a lot of nuance if going to be lost. After all, next month's rent maybe riding on that song. It's no time to hone everything to a fine polish. Of course, that's why live concert versions of popular songs tend to be treated to an extended solo. The artist has had years to polish the presentation.

On a related note, I've listened to Beethoven symphonies played on period instruments. Although a 600 year old violin sounds much the same today as it did when new, the same cannot be said for brass horns. The symphony which delighted audiences in 1824, sounds weak and strained to modern ears. Of course, as for Beethoven himself, he probably wouldn't hear the difference.
 
I wish I could tell anything about classical music, other than that I like something or not. I pretty much got a collection of stuff that Bernstein conducted and went out from there. I'm a musical idiot, which is odd seeing I like progressive rock, but I can't tell meter or notice if something is being done that is special, other than Stravinsky was "out there" with his compositions.
 
I wish I could tell anything about classical music, other than that I like something or not. I pretty much got a collection of stuff that Bernstein conducted and went out from there. I'm a musical idiot, which is odd seeing I like progressive rock, but I can't tell meter or notice if something is being done that is special, other than Stravinsky was "out there" with his compositions.

I'm the same way. Might just be that I haven't taken enough time to sit and really soak in a number of pieces. Usually I have it on as background music.

Over the last few months I've mainly tried to get a sense of it's progression from Baroque to Modern, which I think I've accomplished. After that, there's just such a huge breadth of stuff out there it'll probably take time.
 
I could go on endlessly about some of the classical stuff I'm familiar with. In fact, since it's the end of the day and I have some time, I'll do that just now.

Part of my enjoyment of certain composers has to do with the circumstances under which each piece was written. One remarkable example is the Russian composer Dmitri Shostakovitch. For nearly his entire life, he was prodded and goaded by the Communist government to make music in a certain way, to the point where he actually feared for his life due to government response to some of his works. He bottomed out emotionally at around the time of his eighth string quartet, which he later described as a eulogy for his own funeral, having caved to pressure and joined the Party some time earlier. In that quartet, he continually returns to an ominous four-note theme that spells out his own initials "D.Sch" (the note names are different than they are in English). In one of the middle movements, the melody hammers percussively in a way that supposedly mimics the KGB banging on his apartment door in the dead of night. There's no happy ending to the quartet, no resolution, just the grim and somber return of the four-note theme.

Bela Bartok's string quartets are another source of enjoyment for me, and for similar reasons, though not as dour. For Bartok, his development as an artist was synonymous with one thing: moving away from traditional rhythm/harmony and embracing what was at the time considered "folk" music, whether it be Gypsy dance music or Hungarian bar songs, all of them in comparatively bizarre scales and meters compared to what anybody was doing in Western orchestral music at the time. He applied those influences in a unique way that stretched the boundaries of what four stringed instruments were capable of doing, because he really wanted to capture the untamed, almost mischievous element he found in his research of folk traditions. He was fond of inversions, playing a melody forwards, backwards, and upside down in strange counterpoint. One of his most well-known inventions was what later became known as the "Bartok pizzicato," whereby the player would intentionally pluck the string so hard that it would slap against the wood of the instrument with a loud snap. In some quartets, he developed a style he would return to throughout his life, the eerie sounds of "night music", with the instruments imitating bird calls, the faraway songs of farmers returning home at dusk, and a general mood of ambient uncertainty. And in his last quartet, the 6th, like Shostakovitch he responded to a political situation, this time the Nazi occupation. Deeply sarcastic, grotesque renderings of children's limericks mock the listener in one movement, and the lock-step march of Nazi soldiers is musically caricatured in another. But the overall mood is bleak by the end, as Bartok knew that this wouldn't be the first or last of such atrocities.

If string quartets aren't your thing, another distinctive and storied composer whose work resonates beyond just being an example of his period is Igor Stravinsky. His most famous piece is the ballet Le Sacre du Printemps, commonly translated into the English title The Rite of Spring. Rumor has it that small riots broke out in the concert halls where the ballet originally debuted. The whole thing is a celebration of pagan sex rituals, flesh sacrifice, and worship of the earth, startling subject matter from the devoutly Christian composer. It has some memorable moments, but is very 'cinematic' to me and thus a little one dimensional. My favorite piece of his is the Symphonies for Wind Instruments, possibly my favorite piece of music in general. I could sort of describe Bartok and Shostakovitch in words that mean something outside of the music, but here I just have to defer to the sound of the thing. Some of the savage and unpredictable atonalism of The Rite of Spring is on display, but confined to a collection of brass and woodwind instruments that carry me to a subtle and mystical realm every time I hear it. One bit of background is that the finale of the piece was originally a separate composition Stravinsky wrote when he learned of the death of Claude Debussy, a fellow composer (thought vastly different in style). As before, the debut of this work was met with confusion and actually laughter. As Stravinsky himself was conducting, he reportedly did not stop to explain that this was serious music and all that, he just turned and gave the audience a grin without halting a beat and kept going.

I guess my overall message here is: to get a sense of the piece and of the composer, find something whose sound you like and learn about the circumstances that inspired it. If what you find interests you, dig further into the same composer's related works to find other resonances and recurring motifs. Like authors and directors, classical composers usually have signature tropes they were known for, or stylistic approaches they kept returning to. For me, since the above composers were all active around the beginning or middle of the 20th century, that's where I tend to look if I want to hear something new, because things were moving in an exciting direction at the time with the advent of jazz and non-Western music.
 
Funny how tastes work; Shostakovich has always sounded like a second rank composer to me, but he's very popular. The device of using ones name in notes dates back to at least Bach(in German B is Bflat and H is b natural). I don't dislike him, but his stuff often sounds lightweight to me.

I used to be into Bartok much more than I am now, but the Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste is still a favorite(some of which btw was used in Being John Malkovich). Bartok grew up versed in German music, but said French music set him free. I think he's similar to Ives, my favorite, in that respect. Tho when I say French music I really mean Debussy. I'm trying to learn the Preludes now.

Stravinsky has always been a giant to me, ever since one of my brothers friends brought over Petrushka and some authentic Acapulco Gold many years ago...oddly, Symphony for Winds isn't one I like...all the early ballets and the neoclassical symphonies, Psalms, in C, three movements, Dunbarton Oaks, Pulcinella, all great. Btw Debussy befriended Stravinsky and helped him playing his works in progress on four hand piano - Debussy was a brilliant sight reader.
 
You might try this. When you get a new recording of classical music, sit down and just listen to it. Don't do anything else. While it is not true to say that Classical music was never intended to be background music (some of it was) mostly it was a very intense experience that the listeners would focus on more than we are used to doing today with the radio. You might try going to your local symphony orchestra if it is any good. Once you concentrate on the music, I think you will find that it isn't all the same.

Also, with classical music it is important to get good performances. There are plenty of budget classical cds out there that are underwhelming. Avoid those if you don't 'get' classical music; they won't help you. For the same reason I would avoid classical radio stations, unless you are listening at the times where they are playing performances in their entirety (in other words, not prime time) otherwise you'll be getting bits and pieces and never hearing the complete work. The same goes for 'best of' compilations.
 
You might try this. When you get a new recording of classical music, sit down and just listen to it. Don't do anything else. While it is not true to say that Classical music was never intended to be background music (some of it was) mostly it was a very intense experience that the listeners would focus on more than we are used to doing today with the radio. You might try going to your local symphony orchestra if it is any good. Once you concentrate on the music, I think you will find that it isn't all the same.

Also, with classical music it is important to get good performances. There are plenty of budget classical cds out there that are underwhelming. Avoid those if you don't 'get' classical music; they won't help you. For the same reason I would avoid classical radio stations, unless you are listening at the times where they are playing performances in their entirety (in other words, not prime time) otherwise you'll be getting bits and pieces and never hearing the complete work. The same goes for 'best of' compilations.

This is good advice.

I'd add about live concerts, they're really the best way to go. Check your local symphony calendar, and if you see anything appealing, check it out. We're pretty picky about programs. All we have scheduled this year so far is Turandot at the Met.
 
You might try this. When you get a new recording of classical music, sit down and just listen to it. Don't do anything else. While it is not true to say that Classical music was never intended to be background music (some of it was) mostly it was a very intense experience that the listeners would focus on more than we are used to doing today with the radio. You might try going to your local symphony orchestra if it is any good. Once you concentrate on the music, I think you will find that it isn't all the same.

Also, with classical music it is important to get good performances. There are plenty of budget classical cds out there that are underwhelming. Avoid those if you don't 'get' classical music; they won't help you. For the same reason I would avoid classical radio stations, unless you are listening at the times where they are playing performances in their entirety (in other words, not prime time) otherwise you'll be getting bits and pieces and never hearing the complete work. The same goes for 'best of' compilations.

This is good advice.

I'd add about live concerts, they're really the best way to go. Check your local symphony calendar, and if you see anything appealing, check it out. We're pretty picky about programs. All we have scheduled this year so far is Turandot at the Met.

I agree. And if you listen to it at home, the acoustics are very important, the quality of the reproduction, the speakers and equipment used can make a huuuuge difference in the level of enjoyment.(The recording is also very important)
 
I have a few thoughts to add. I started enjoying "classical music" when I was about 7 and I convinced my mother to purchase some vinyl classics at the local grocery store. So, you could say that I learned about music on my own. Much later, I took a course in music appreciation in 1968 when I was a liberal arts major. There, I learned that what we commonly call "classical music" is actually made up of many genres of music. For example, Bach is from the Baroque period, while Beethoven and Mozart are from the classical period. I personally prefer music from the Romantic era, which includes composers such as Tchaikovsky. My favorites also include some from the like Debussy and other impressionistic music. Anyway, do a little research and learn a little about the many genres that make up the European classics. You really don't need to know much about the music to enjoy it, but if you like having a better understanding of Western Civilization, you might enjoy learning about how the different varieties of music intertwined with other aspects of art and culture in each period.

Oddly enough, with age, much of my interest in the classics was lost due to my love of American music, especially jazz and soul. But, I often listen to the European classics on Sunday mornings. I would never limit myself to one period of music. It all depends on my mood and not on my limited understanding of music. Btw, do you currently have a favorite composer?
 
You might try this. When you get a new recording of classical music, sit down and just listen to it. Don't do anything else. While it is not true to say that Classical music was never intended to be background music (some of it was) mostly it was a very intense experience that the listeners would focus on more than we are used to doing today with the radio. You might try going to your local symphony orchestra if it is any good. Once you concentrate on the music, I think you will find that it isn't all the same.

Also, with classical music it is important to get good performances. There are plenty of budget classical cds out there that are underwhelming. Avoid those if you don't 'get' classical music; they won't help you. For the same reason I would avoid classical radio stations, unless you are listening at the times where they are playing performances in their entirety (in other words, not prime time) otherwise you'll be getting bits and pieces and never hearing the complete work. The same goes for 'best of' compilations.

This is good advice.

I'd add about live concerts, they're really the best way to go. Check your local symphony calendar, and if you see anything appealing, check it out. We're pretty picky about programs. All we have scheduled this year so far is Turandot at the Met.

Yeah, classical music is best experienced live, even if only that it forces you to engage with it more. Many colleges with a music program will have free concerts. Unless you're a real expert, you won't notice any difference from the pros. If you don't think you like classical, go see Carmina Burana live.
 
I used to listen to and play classical music often. Now, I listen to it from time to time and it's devolved to the point where I'm in 3 camps:

1. If I'm feeling peppy and awake, I listen to baroque...mainly Bach.
2. If I'm feeling love, passion or like I need to relax, I listen to the Amadeus soundtrack, because it's the very best recordings of his music I've ever heard.
3. If I'm feeling down, depressed or ambivalent, I listen to Beethoven.

I rarely mix them anymore.
 
I have a few thoughts to add. I started enjoying "classical music" when I was about 7 and I convinced my mother to purchase some vinyl classics at the local grocery store. So, you could say that I learned about music on my own. Much later, I took a course in music appreciation in 1968 when I was a liberal arts major. There, I learned that what we commonly call "classical music" is actually made up of many genres of music. For example, Bach is from the Baroque period, while Beethoven and Mozart are from the classical period. I personally prefer music from the Romantic era, which includes composers such as Tchaikovsky. My favorites also include some from the like Debussy and other impressionistic music. Anyway, do a little research and learn a little about the many genres that make up the European classics. You really don't need to know much about the music to enjoy it, but if you like having a better understanding of Western Civilization, you might enjoy learning about how the different varieties of music intertwined with other aspects of art and culture in each period.

Oddly enough, with age, much of my interest in the classics was lost due to my love of American music, especially jazz and soul. But, I often listen to the European classics on Sunday mornings. I would never limit myself to one period of music. It all depends on my mood and not on my limited understanding of music. Btw, do you currently have a favorite composer?

I've kinda/sorta dabbled in classical for many years, but never seriously until the last few months now that I have Spotify and the novelty of jazz is starting to dry up for me (which was my last conquest).

That said I can't say that I'm overly familiar with many composers, but based on the bit of research I've done the composer I've listened to the most is Bach, and second to him Beethoven. I find both of them impressive, but other than those two my listening has been more extensive than intensive. In other words, I've listened to a little bit of a large number of composers, rather than lots of stuff from individuals. So many of the people I've listened to don't really stand out as anything other than examples of their period, and I probably couldn't even remember names. I guess it's that easy with Spotify.
 
Back
Top Bottom