Doctors 'fighting for life' of Russia's opposition leader Navalny after alleged poisoning

[barbos]

Won't harm him? then why all these US sanctions, what are they for? what's the point?

Would the sanctions hurt him more if he murders Navalny than they would if he does not?

Navalny would have been dead long time ago with such a math.
Now, dead Navalny has absolutely no benefit to Putin.
Western Media has created absolutely distorted and cartoonish picture of Russia, Putin and opposition.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Won't harm him? then why all these US sanctions, what are they for? what's the point?

Would the sanctions hurt him more if he murders Navalny than they would if he does not?

Navalny would have been dead long time ago with such a math.
Now, dead Navalny has absolutely no benefit to Putin.
Western Media has created absolutely distorted and cartoonish picture of Russia, Putin and opposition.

What math? If it's someone's, it's not mine: You made a claim that the US sanctions would harm him (well, it's implicit in your questions in reply to a previous comment by Loren Pechtel), and I asked you whether they would harm him more if he kills Navalny than they would if he does not.

 

[barbos]

Navalny would have been dead long time ago with such a math.
Now, dead Navalny has absolutely no benefit to Putin.
Western Media has created absolutely distorted and cartoonish picture of Russia, Putin and opposition.

What math? If it's someone's, it's not mine: You made a claim that the US sanctions would harm him (well, it's implicit in your questions in reply to a previous comment by Loren Pechtel), and I asked you whether they would harm him more if he kills Navalny than they would if he does not.

The math that implied that murdering Navalny is somehow beneficial to Putin

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Navalny would have been dead long time ago with such a math.
Now, dead Navalny has absolutely no benefit to Putin.
Western Media has created absolutely distorted and cartoonish picture of Russia, Putin and opposition.

What math? If it's someone's, it's not mine: You made a claim that the US sanctions would harm him (well, it's implicit in your questions in reply to a previous comment by Loren Pechtel), and I asked you whether they would harm him more if he kills Navalny than they would if he does not.

The math that implied that murdering Navalny is somehow beneficial to Putin

Well, it is in some ways beneficial of course. Whether it's better for him overall depends on the circumstances, both local and international. It's not as if rulers who murder political opponents always murder them right away. They do it when in their assessment it becomes convenient. But in any case, I was not claiming that Putin did it or that it did not. I was asking whether the sanctions would harm him more if he murders Navalny than they would if he does not.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So, you DO think he is dumb.

No, I still don't think you get it. We all understand what he means, so why don't you seem to? Am I going to have to spell this out for you? That doesn't make you look very good, especially for such a simple concept:

Putin has enemies.
Putin kills enemies in a way that is plausibly deniable with only the barest fig leaf.
He says "oh, such a *tragedy*"
Everyone knows, nobody can do anything.

This, together, makes a clear and powerful message: "get in his way and Putin will kill you, with no consequences."

As an autocratic dictator, that's a powerful position to be in. It is a really "smart", unethical move.

We all know and acknowledge that fact. But you can't seem to understand it?

It doesn't have to be Putin specifically. Putin is at the very top of a dictatorial and corrupt machine. Everybody in that machine has a vested interest in keeping Putin in power. Everybody at that top of that pyramid of power has a vested interest in keeping everybody afraid of Putin. Dictators typically spend a lot of energy whipping their lieutenants into line, and keeping them from killing people indiscriminantly. There's countless examples of dictatorships falling because the fanclub got overly enthusiastic. Controlling the guys on their own side is harder than controlling the general population because the dictator is dependent on their goodwill.

But he's still responsible. So it's fair to blame him. But it really doesn't need to be Putin who ordered this in person.

 

[barbos]

So, you DO think he is dumb.

No, I still don't think you get it. We all understand what he means, so why don't you seem to? Am I going to have to spell this out for you? That doesn't make you look very good, especially for such a simple concept:

Putin has enemies.
Putin kills enemies in a way that is plausibly deniable with only the barest fig leaf.
He says "oh, such a *tragedy*"
Everyone knows, nobody can do anything.

This, together, makes a clear and powerful message: "get in his way and Putin will kill you, with no consequences."

As an autocratic dictator, that's a powerful position to be in. It is a really "smart", unethical move.

We all know and acknowledge that fact. But you can't seem to understand it?

It doesn't have to be Putin specifically. Putin is at the very top of a dictatorial and corrupt machine. Everybody in that machine has a vested interest in keeping Putin in power. Everybody at that top of that pyramid of power has a vested interest in keeping everybody afraid of Putin. Dictators typically spend a lot of energy whipping their lieutenants into line, and keeping them from killing people indiscriminantly. There's countless examples of dictatorships falling because the fanclub got overly enthusiastic. Controlling the guys on their own side is harder than controlling the general population because the dictator is dependent on their goodwill.

But he's still responsible. So it's fair to blame him. But it really doesn't need to be Putin who ordered this in person.

Yeah. Navalny is really an enemy of the lower ranks, not Putin personally. He does these well researched investigations of corruption, so there is a lot of pissed off enemies. I think couple of times Putin reacted to these investigations and people lost their jobs.
Investigations itself are so thorough that I suspect that he has help he would rather not reveal. As for corruption, I think Putin tolerates certain amount of it for the sake of "greater" good, the system would collapse without it, people would not work for him otherwise. This is unfortunate reality.

As for this particular case I think someone clearly did not measure the dosage correctly, plan was to make him look drunk under drug influence.
Could be the same people who attacked him with Brilliant green earlier. For Putin to order this would be utterly stupid.
Another theory is someone trying to create chaos, for example CIA.

 

[Jayjay]

Won't harm him? then why all these US sanctions, what are they for? what's the point?

Would the sanctions hurt him more if he murders Navalny than they would if he does not?

Navalny would have been dead long time ago with such a math.
Now, dead Navalny has absolutely no benefit to Putin.
Western Media has created absolutely distorted and cartoonish picture of Russia, Putin and opposition.

See what's going on in Belarus? That's something Putin doesn't want spreading to Russia, which could have tilted the "math" in favor of getting rid of the most visible opposition figurehead as well as sending a message to others.

 

[barbos]

Navalny would have been dead long time ago with such a math.
Now, dead Navalny has absolutely no benefit to Putin.
Western Media has created absolutely distorted and cartoonish picture of Russia, Putin and opposition.

See what's going on in Belarus? That's something Putin doesn't want spreading to Russia, which could have tilted the "math" in favor of getting rid of the most visible opposition figurehead as well as sending a message to others.

Or CIA sees what's going on in Belarus and realize that murdering sacrificial lamb and blaming it on Putin would recreate Belarus in Russia.
Did you forget who helped Russian Revolution?

 

[bigfield]

As for corruption, I think Putin tolerates certain amount of it for the sake of "greater" good, the system would collapse without it, people would not work for him otherwise. This is unfortunate reality.

Yeah. Autocracy and the rule of law don't mix.

 

[Jayjay]

Navalny would have been dead long time ago with such a math.
Now, dead Navalny has absolutely no benefit to Putin.
Western Media has created absolutely distorted and cartoonish picture of Russia, Putin and opposition.

See what's going on in Belarus? That's something Putin doesn't want spreading to Russia, which could have tilted the "math" in favor of getting rid of the most visible opposition figurehead as well as sending a message to others.

Or CIA sees what's going on in Belarus and realize that murdering sacrificial lamb and blaming it on Putin would recreate Belarus in Russia.
Did you forget who helped Russian Revolution?

Or maybe that's what Putin wants you to think and he is setting up CIA for Navalnyi's assassination attempt!

You can go down the rabbit hole with these conspiracy theories, but usually the simplest theory is the correct one.

 

[barbos]

Or CIA sees what's going on in Belarus and realize that murdering sacrificial lamb and blaming it on Putin would recreate Belarus in Russia.
Did you forget who helped Russian Revolution?

Or maybe that's what Putin wants you to think and he is setting up CIA for Navalnyi's assassination attempt!

You can go down the rabbit hole with these conspiracy theories, but usually the simplest theory is the correct one.

So, what is the simplest theory? keep in mind that these Snipers in Ukrainian Maidan were actually rebels, or rather anti-Yanukovich.

 

[KeepTalking]

Or CIA sees what's going on in Belarus and realize that murdering sacrificial lamb and blaming it on Putin would recreate Belarus in Russia.
Did you forget who helped Russian Revolution?

Or maybe that's what Putin wants you to think and he is setting up CIA for Navalnyi's assassination attempt!

You can go down the rabbit hole with these conspiracy theories, but usually the simplest theory is the correct one.

So, what is the simplest theory?

The one you immediately rejected in this thread. Not that I blame you, were I a Russian citizen I would be very careful about criticizing Putin right now.

 

[Jayjay]

What he said.

Navalny is hardly the first critic of the Putin that ends up poisoned, and he won't be the last.

 

[4321lynx]

This is so fucked. But not really surprising.

Not surprising at all, it is almost routine now. But the Ruskies love the "strong hand" that holds/beats/kills them. Look at their national heroes: Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great; Stalin coming back into favour, and next Putin? All dangerous killers, some psychopathic.

 

[Jarhyn]

So, what is the simplest theory?

The one you immediately rejected in this thread. Not that I blame you, were I a Russian citizen I would be very careful about criticizing Putin right now.

The fact is, every time a critic of the regime drops dead, ten other people considering being critics reevaluate that career choice, and leave fewer people needing to "commit suicide with two gunshots to the back of the head".

 

[barbos]

What he said.

Navalny is hardly the first critic of the Putin that ends up poisoned, and he won't be the last.

It does not say anything about who did it.
Again, maidan snipers were not who you think they were.

 

[Jayjay]

What he said.

Navalny is hardly the first critic of the Putin that ends up poisoned, and he won't be the last.

It does not say anything about who did it.
Again, maidan snipers were not who you think they were.

Whether the maidan snipers were Russian or merely pro-Russian rebels is not really relevant. I'm talking about poisonings of Russian citizens critical of Putin, which isn't just an single incident but has a long-standing pattern behind it. What you are suggesting, that there are individuals or groups within Russia that keep poisoning opposition figures and never get caught, sometimes using nerve agents that are accessible only to government agencies. At best, this means that even if Putin didn't give an order, he is deliberately looking the other way and letting them kill whomever they wish.

 

[barbos]

What he said.

Navalny is hardly the first critic of the Putin that ends up poisoned, and he won't be the last.

It does not say anything about who did it.
Again, maidan snipers were not who you think they were.

Whether the maidan snipers were Russian or merely pro-Russian rebels is not really relevant.

Good one

 

[barbos]

What you are suggesting, that there are individuals or groups within Russia that keep poisoning opposition figures and never get caught, sometimes using nerve agents that are accessible only to government agencies. At best, this means that even if Putin didn't give an order, he is deliberately looking the other way and letting them kill whomever they wish.

I am suggesting that Putin got such a strong reputation that he would be blamed no matter what.

 

[Elixir]

What you are suggesting, that there are individuals or groups within Russia that keep poisoning opposition figures and never get caught, sometimes using nerve agents that are accessible only to government agencies. At best, this means that even if Putin didn't give an order, he is deliberately looking the other way and letting them kill whomever they wish.

I am suggesting that Putin got such a strong reputation that he would be blamed no matter what.

Gee, thanks for the suggestion. I'm sure Uncle Vlad will be glad to hear it. He really needs ANOTHER evasion tactic to help him answer for his murders.
He should probably tell the press that Navalny poisoned himself just to make the poor innocent dictator look bad.