Does "Rape Culture" exist?

[PJPSYCO]

I'm sure you are right. But I was just being truthful and accurate.

There is an irony here in that why you didn't want sex is irrelevant to that you didn't want sex. They are just blaming the victim. I suspect that there is a rape culture here, but you are not actually part of it. Your detractors however...

 

[Toni]

When someone is so drunk they are unable to resist the sexual advances of another person, that is rape.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm sure. The point was that rape is going to happen, and inevitably some people are going to side with the rapist. To call it rape culture and assume we can magically create a 100% socially progressive society is a bit.. deluded.

Why would anybody side with a rapist?

 

[Bronzeage]

When someone is so drunk they are unable to resist the sexual advances of another person, that is rape.

- - - Updated - - -



Why would anybody side with a rapist?

Because we cannot agree on the definition of rape or rapist.

No one sides with a "rapist". They argue he is not one.

 

[rousseau]

When someone is so drunk they are unable to resist the sexual advances of another person, that is rape.

- - - Updated - - -



Why would anybody side with a rapist?

Why does anybody believe things that you don't agree with? Because that's the nature of having 7 billion people on the planet: there is no consensus about almost any issue, and people are bound to have varying opinions. That's the point I'm making. That some person excuses rape under some circumstance doesn't mean that society is endemically teaching us to excuse rape, it's just what happens when you have a range of ideas across a society.

It's great to be idealistic and spend all of our Saturday's marching through the down-town core of our city shouting 'we won't stop until sexual violence stops', but someone with a more realistic view of human nature and human society might have realized their time was better spent elsewhere. And by that I mean that labelling our society as having rape culture presumes that a culture where rape is never excused, and nobody is ever sexually violent is possible. Social awareness is fantastic, but if that social awareness doesn't come with much deeper knowledge, many of the ideas are mostly 'youthful revolutionary dreaming'.

 

[Toni]

Not entirely true. Some people feel that rape is deserved. As rape. Or a legitimate means of warfare. Or spoils of war. I find it beyond comprehension but it is true.

- - - Updated - - -

Because we cannot agree on the definition of rape or rapist.

No one sides with a "rapist". They argue he is not one.

Not entirely true. Some believe rape is deserved, is a legitimate tool of warfare, a legitimate spoil of war or as punishment.

- - - Updated - - -

Why does anybody believe things that you don't agree with? Because that's the nature of having 7 billion people on the planet: there is no consensus about almost any issue, and people are bound to have varying opinions. That's the point I'm making. That some person excuses rape under some circumstance doesn't mean that society is endemically teaching us to excuse rape, it's just what happens when you have a range of ideas across a society.

It's great to be idealistic and spend all of our Saturday's marching through the down-town core of our city shouting 'we won't stop until sexual violence stops', but someone with a more realistic view of human nature and human society might have realized their time was better spent elsewhere. And by that I mean that labelling our society as having rape culture presumes that a culture where rape is never excused, and nobody is ever sexually violent is possible. Social awareness is fantastic, but if that social awareness doesn't come with much deeper knowledge, many of the ideas are mostly 'youthful revolutionary dreaming'.

Cop out.

It was a serious question, and one that deserves serious consideration. IMO, certain people are excused from rape because of their status and/or power. Look at how some athletes are treated when accused of rape, even when there is video evidence proudly posted all over the internet. Look at how easily a commander in the army is able to make accusations go away, acknowledging wrong doing but not facing actual criminal charges.

Locally, it is not uncommon for men who are brought to trial for rape of a child under 13 to get probation, or suspended sentences. A local woman got 20+ years for dealing in child pornography; men get almost no jail time or probation for child pornography and rape of a child, not to mention 'just' sexual misconduct with a child (under 13, no less).

I don't understand why we give some people 'passes' for egregious wrong doing.

 

[PJPSYCO]

I think the extended question would be, "could the individuals who committed the crimes get away with other crimes?" Is rape the only crime that they can get away with? Any felony perhaps? Only misdemeanors? Perhaps, status allows one to not play by the rules of society in general. Since the law does not apply equally to all individuals there is a secondary problem here that needs to be addressed. Rape may not be the underlying problem, but an obvious sore spot in a larger problem.

 

[laughing dog]

And by that I mean that labelling our society as having rape culture presumes that a culture where rape is never excused, and nobody is ever sexually violent is possible.

You need to explain your reasoning there, because it appears illogical. Logically and realistically, there is a difference between a culture where some rapes are excused all of the time by a large portion of the population and a culture where some rapes are rarely excused by a few people (and all of the possibilities in between).

 

[rousseau]

Not entirely true. Some people feel that rape is deserved. As rape. Or a legitimate means of warfare. Or spoils of war. I find it beyond comprehension but it is true.

- - - Updated - - -



Not entirely true. Some believe rape is deserved, is a legitimate tool of warfare, a legitimate spoil of war or as punishment.

- - - Updated - - -



Cop out.

It was a serious question, and one that deserves serious consideration. IMO, certain people are excused from rape because of their status and/or power. Look at how some athletes are treated when accused of rape, even when there is video evidence proudly posted all over the internet. Look at how easily a commander in the army is able to make accusations go away, acknowledging wrong doing but not facing actual criminal charges.

Locally, it is not uncommon for men who are brought to trial for rape of a child under 13 to get probation, or suspended sentences. A local woman got 20+ years for dealing in child pornography; men get almost no jail time or probation for child pornography and rape of a child, not to mention 'just' sexual misconduct with a child (under 13, no less).

I don't understand why we give some people 'passes' for egregious wrong doing.

I think the extended question would be, "could the individuals who committed the crimes get away with other crimes?" Is rape the only crime that they can get away with? Any felony perhaps? Only misdemeanors? Perhaps, status allows one to not play by the rules of society in general. Since the law does not apply equally to all individuals there is a secondary problem here that needs to be addressed. Rape may not be the underlying problem, but an obvious sore spot in a larger problem.

This post addresses your point well Toni, I think, but I don't know that your point addresses mine. One portion of society condoning rape is not evidence of a society that condones rape, it is evidence of a society with a portion of people that condone rape among a spectrum of opinions.

If anything, the fact that we have strict laws and policies against rape and sexual violence leads me to believe that, as a society, we've accepted that it's wrong. That's just not a guarantee that all members of the society are going to conform to that ideal.

If you want to work tirelessly for the rest of your life trying to fundamentally change society so no one condones anything even resembling rape under any circumstance, then I'm all for it, but I think it's a fools errand.

 

[rousseau]

You need to explain your reasoning there, because it appears illogical. Logically and realistically, there is a difference between a culture where some rapes are excused all of the time by a large portion of the population and a culture where some rapes are rarely excused by a few people (and all of the possibilities in between).

If you believe that society in it's current form displays 'rape culture', and you are actively working against it, then by extension you believe that it's possible to make it go away. I don't think that's true for a myriad of a reasons, but the main one being that biological and sexual instincts, and the inability of most of society to think logically, are a much more powerful force than people trying to infuse rationality into those who aren't rational.

Not that I'm against activism involving sexual violence, I actually take part in it myself, I just don't think humanity will ever 'rid' itself of the problem, which is my point.

 

[Derec]

I think the extended question would be, "could the individuals who committed the crimes get away with other crimes?" Is rape the only crime that they can get away with? Any felony perhaps? Only misdemeanors? Perhaps, status allows one to not play by the rules of society in general. Since the law does not apply equally to all individuals there is a secondary problem here that needs to be addressed. Rape may not be the underlying problem, but an obvious sore spot in a larger problem.

The problem with rape is that it involves an activity that is most of the time perfectly legal and that the cases are often "he said, she said" especially the so-called "date rapes". If there is no evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt" there should be no conviction and if there is no "probable cause" there should be no arrest and prosecution. In other words, just because there often is no good evidence is no reason to apply a weaker standard to rape cases.

 

[Toni]

This post addresses your point well Toni, I think, but I don't know that your point addresses mine. One portion of society condoning rape is not evidence of a society that condones rape, it is evidence of a society with a portion of people that condone rape among a spectrum of opinions.

If anything, the fact that we have strict laws and policies against rape and sexual violence leads me to believe that, as a society, we've accepted that it's wrong. That's just not a guarantee that all members of the society are going to conform to that ideal.

If you want to work tirelessly for the rest of your life trying to fundamentally change society so no one condones anything even resembling rape under any circumstance, then I'm all for it, but I think it's a fools errand.

I think that indeed, rape is a symptom of an underlying problem that is directly related to how women are treated, how power is distributed, what those in power are allowed to do vs what those with less power are allowed to do or even what treatment they can expect.

Women are not the only rape victims, something that is largely ignored in discussions about rape. Laws on the books are one thing; the fact that rape victims often do not press charges is a symptom of the profound ways our society discounts the harm that rape does, and instead attributes blame to the victims of rape in a way that blame is not attributed to victims of any other crime.

The fact that you think it is a fools errand to attempt to change society so that rape is no longer acceptable points to a larger problem. I wonder if you would care to elaborate on exactly what circumstances you believe rape is acceptable.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with rape is that it involves an activity that is most of the time perfectly legal and that the cases are often "he said, she said" especially the so-called "date rapes". If there is no evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt" there should be no conviction and if there is no "probable cause" there should be no arrest and prosecution. In other words, just because there often is no good evidence is no reason to apply a weaker standard to rape cases.

Really? Sex with an infant, a toddler is 'an activity that most of the time is perfectly legal?' It involves 'he said/she said?' Never he said/he said? It's just he said/she said no matter how bruised and battered one of them is?

 

[fromderinside]

The problem with rape is that it involves an activity that is most of the time perfectly legal and that the cases are often "he said, she said" especially the so-called "date rapes". If there is no evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt" there should be no conviction and if there is no "probable cause" there should be no arrest and prosecution. In other words, just because there often is no good evidence is no reason to apply a weaker standard to rape cases.

As for her consenting, ie perfectly legal (married or acknowledged partnership), there is no issue. Having a 'he said' when she's the one who is giving is nonsensical. There is only 'she said'. He can deny all he wants, but, if sex took place and she says she didn't want it, IMHO, he's toast. Its like saying I punched him/her because he/she didn't say no. It doesn't wash. If he did it and she says she didn't say go ahead? Sorry Charley. Jail time.

 

[Derec]

Not entirely true. Some people feel that rape is deserved. As rape. Or a legitimate means of warfare. Or spoils of war. I find it beyond comprehension but it is true.

Who for example? And even if you could find a handful of people who agreed with the above does that handful a "rape culture" make?
In other words, "some say" is not a good argument for anything.

It was a serious question, and one that deserves serious consideration. IMO, certain people are excused from rape because of their status and/or power.

Excused from rape? Is that like being excused from PE or something?

Look at how some athletes are treated when accused of rape, even when there is video evidence proudly posted all over the internet.

Duke Lacrosse players were presumed guilty by the media and their own university (see the shameful Group of 88). Brian Banks spent years in prison before his false accuser admitted her wrongdoing. Allegation against Jarmeis Winston is "he said she said" with no evidence. Accusations against Kobe Bryant and Ben Roethlisberger were likewise highly dubious. Just because someone is an athlete does not make an accusation against them automatically true and they are still entitled to presumption of innocence and due process rights as well.

Look at how easily a commander in the army is able to make accusations go away, acknowledging wrong doing but not facing actual criminal charges.

What evidence was there that he was guilty of anything more than adultery (by the way, why wasn't the woman charged with adultery as well - sauce for the gander should be sauce for the goose as well!)? Just because a woman accused him? Hardly evidence at all, much less "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Locally, it is not uncommon for men who are brought to trial for rape of a child under 13 to get probation, or suspended sentences.

Any evidence that it is "not uncommon"? And just how "not uncommon" is it? Under what circumstances? For example the recent widely publicized case of the DuPont heir had even Beau Biden (Delaware AG) admit that the case against him was weak which is why the state went for the plea deal. Or are you claiming that Beau is part of "rape culture" as well?

A local woman got 20+ years for dealing in child pornography; men get almost no jail time or probation for child pornography and rape of a child, not to mention 'just' sexual misconduct with a child (under 13, no less).

Please post some evidence that "men get almost no jail time or probation for child pornography and rape of a child".

I don't understand why we give some people 'passes' for egregious wrong doing.

I don't understand why we should presume guilt and throw due process out the window just because they were accused of "egregious wrong doing".

 

[rousseau]

I think that indeed, rape is a symptom of an underlying problem that is directly related to how women are treated, how power is distributed, what those in power are allowed to do vs what those with less power are allowed to do or even what treatment they can expect.

Underlying what you've described here are biological realities that I've described above: men are bigger than women, men like sex, men don't always think or have a moral conscience, so rape happens.

The definition of 'rape culture' as I see it is not the same thing as rape, it's the systemic acceptance, and 'sweeping under the rug' of rape, if you will.

Women are not the only rape victims, something that is largely ignored in discussions about rape. Laws on the books are one thing; the fact that rape victims often do not press charges is a symptom of the profound ways our society discounts the harm that rape does, and instead attributes blame to the victims of rape in a way that blame is not attributed to victims of any other crime.

Sexual violence is an extremely complex subject and I can't pretend to understand it completely, especially enough to point blame in society's general direction. Here are some questions: In what way does 'society' promote sexual violence? What is your evidence that society discounts the harm that rape does? Who are the people attributing blame? Wouldn't you, yourself, be evidence that not everyone places blame to rape victims? Wouldn't entire movements of people being socially active against sexual violence be evidence that 'society as a whole' isn't systematically in a game of oppressing rape victims? Could there be many other factors involved in people failing to press charges against those who rape? Maybe they're a spouse, boyfriend, family member and so on.. and so it's not as simple as to say 'society is oppressing rape victims' because many don't press charges.

The fact that you think it is a fools errand to attempt to change society so that rape is no longer acceptable points to a larger problem. I wonder if you would care to elaborate on exactly what circumstances you believe rape is acceptable?

I don't understand how you've drawn the conclusion that I think rape is acceptable under certain circumstances. The point I was making is that sexual violence is an inherent issue in a sexual society.

It seems like you're confusing the opinion of people in this thread. You're thinking we're condoning rape culture, when really we're just doing away with the idea that rape culture exists. Even if it doesn't exist there are still a subset of people who commit sexual violence and who condone it, and I think we can all agree that's a problem when it happens.

 

[Derec]

As for her consenting, ie perfectly legal (married or acknowledged partnership), there is no issue. Having a 'he said' when she's the one who is giving is nonsensical. There is only 'she said'. He can deny all he wants, but, if sex took place and she says she didn't want it, IMHO, he's toast. Its like saying I punched him/her because he/she didn't say no. It doesn't wash. If he did it and she says she didn't say go ahead? Sorry Charley. Jail time.

Your position is sexist and nonsensical. Just because a woman says she did not consent does not mean she didn't consent. It might come as a great shock to you but women are just as capable of lying as men are.
And "he said she said" does not have to involve dispute over consent anyway. In the Duke case they (three "he"s) said no sex took place whatsoever. "She" said she was raped. The "he"s told the truth, "she" was lying.

 

[Derec]

Really? Sex with an infant, a toddler is 'an activity that most of the time is perfectly legal?'

Way to misconstrue what I said. I meant, of course, sex in general. Millions of people in the US alone have and will have sex today, a very tiny minority of which will be rapes.

It involves 'he said/she said?' Never he said/he said? It's just he said/she said no matter how bruised and battered one of them is?

Again you are misrepresenting what I said. I said "often" and "especially the so-called 'date rapes'".
Take Jameis Winston. Classic "he said she said". She was neither a toddler nor an infant. She wasn't "bruised and battered". But she alleges she was raped, so she must have been, right? Wrong!

 

[Unbeatable]

I've seen enough TV shows, films, comics, games, novels, songs, jokes, porn, etc. condemned by people on the internet as "rape culture" that for me, there's no question as to whether rape culture exists or not. These things being condemned definitely exist. I've seen them. I've enjoyed a number of them. "rape culture" is a label people choose to slap on them, apparently because they're thought to influence attitudes about rape, and therefore on a probabilistic level they influence the precedence of rape. Well, these aren't implausible claims, they're just not claims which are demonstrated with evidence. There's no question in my mind that attitudes about rape are a variable which influence probability of committing and getting away with rape, and there's no question in my mind that people's attitudes about rape are influenced by various variables in culture. The only truth-apt questions would be about the quantity and nature of any particular variable's influence. Which specific variables constitute rape culture? What would it look like for there to be no rape culture?

I wonder if you would care to elaborate on exactly what circumstances you believe rape is acceptable.

I believe that a hypothetical rape acceptable if preventing it would require banning or stigmatizing/increasing the stigma upon X, where X is any currently legal(in the USA) subset of the things mentioned in the first sentence of this post.

 

[bigfield]

I think that indeed, rape is a symptom of an underlying problem that is directly related to how women are treated, how power is distributed, what those in power are allowed to do vs what those with less power are allowed to do or even what treatment they can expect.

Can you elaborate?

What treatment of women that causes rape?

How is power distributed? Who is in power and who is not? (Physical power? Political power? Legal power?)

What are those in power allowed to do that those in power are not? (A reference to corruption in the justice system?)

And what treatment can those not in power expect to receive? (Secondary victimisation? Cheated by the justice system?)

 

[Toni]

Underlying what you've described here are biological realities that I've described above: men are bigger than women, men like sex, men don't always think or have a moral conscience, so rape happens.

The definition of 'rape culture' as I see it is not the same thing as rape, it's the systemic acceptance, and 'sweeping under the rug' of rape, if you will.



Sexual violence is an extremely complex subject and I can't pretend to understand it completely, especially enough to point blame in society's general direction. Here are some questions: In what way does 'society' promote sexual violence? What is your evidence that society discounts the harm that rape does? Who are the people attributing blame? Wouldn't you, yourself, be evidence that not everyone places blame to rape victims? Wouldn't entire movements of people being socially active against sexual violence be evidence that 'society as a whole' isn't systematically in a game of oppressing rape victims? Could there be many other factors involved in people failing to press charges against those who rape? Maybe they're a spouse, boyfriend, family member and so on.. and so it's not as simple as to say 'society is oppressing rape victims' because many don't press charges.



I don't understand how you've drawn the conclusion that I think rape is acceptable under certain circumstances. The point I was making is that sexual violence is an inherent issue in a sexual society.

It seems like you're confusing the opinion of people in this thread. You're thinking we're condoning rape culture, when really we're just doing away with the idea that rape culture exists. Even if it doesn't exist there are still a subset of people who commit sexual violence and who condone it, and I think we can all agree that's a problem when it happens.

Typing one handed--stupidly cut r. hand badly enough to require stitches so pls excuse typos and not responding to each part separately.

Women like sex. Some women are larger than some men. Women are no more or less likely to have a moral conscience compared with men. Rape is not about sex. Will type it again: RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEX.

Evidence that rape consequences are discounted: read threads about rape paying particular attn to posts of certain posters. Plenty of jokes from some.

Society is distinct from individuals. Never said everybody--just society in general. Both romantacized (see lots of films, tv, books) as 'pity women who are all weak powerless victims' and rape in these as 'entertainment' and 'storytelling.' Contrast with how universities fail to protect victims, discourage victims from reporting to police, how often charges are not brought, enormous backlog of rape kits, etc. Lots of 'she was asking for it-or she wouldnt have gone there, dressed like that, been drinking, kissed him, led him on, etc. LOTS of victim blaming.

If you believe that sexual violence is inherent issue in sexual society then it follows that you find this acceptable as i don't think you are advocating for a celibate society. Seems like a big shoulder shrug since you are unlikely to be a victim.

You are confused about what i think.

Not everyone in this thread agrees there is a rape culture. Unfortunately it is not such a small subset of people who

 

[Toni]

Can you elaborate?

What treatment of women that causes rape?

How is power distributed? Who is in power and who is not? (Physical power? Political power? Legal power?)

What are those in power allowed to do that those in power are not? (A reference to corruption in the justice system?)

And what treatment can those not in power expect to receive? (Secondary victimisation? Cheated by the justice system?)

see other post: typing with stitches in r. hand so expct typos, etc. and brevity. apologies. it hurts a bit and i shouldnt overuse.

Women are less valued in most societies. Even in U.S. where women earn less for same work, where it is assumed they will take leave, etc. to care for kids, blah blah: see other threads for evidence of this.

Women are blamed/blame themselves for domestic violence in general. Laws now often mandate someone will go to jail on any dom. violence call, meaning some will not report because they don't want jail for abuser just for abuse to stop. Police sometimes reluctant to take calls seriously as conflictd or frightened victims are sometimes not very cooperative. Allegations of rape in military are discounted, not followed up, etc. to large degree, reflecting what happens outside of military.

Many cultures girl babies less valued, more likely to be aborted based on gender, abandoned, sold. Sex trafficking more girls/women than males.

Those in power are more likely to be immune from prosecution or even suspicion. Power: physical, sometimes, political-yes, economic-yes. Still more legislators and more judges, more police are male, sympathize/identify with males. Team mates (includes fellow officers, etc) protect each other.

Read any of the threads about rape, divorce, etc.

sorry--have to stop now.

- - - Updated - - -

Way to misconstrue what I said. I meant, of course, sex in general. Millions of people in the US alone have and will have sex today, a very tiny minority of which will be rapes.

Again you are misrepresenting what I said. I said "often" and "especially the so-called 'date rapes'".
Take Jameis Winston. Classic "he said she said". She was neither a toddler nor an infant. She wasn't "bruised and battered". But she alleges she was raped, so she must have been, right? Wrong!

Again, sex with someone too drunk to consent is rape. Charges against Winston's friends support but not valuable player himself support she was too drunk. but he is too valuable.

sorry: hand injured/stitches weeping must stop typing