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Does the political correctness on the left over-reach, turning people people off and causing them seek out opinions on the far right?
- Thread starter AdamWho
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In this thread we have
1. Denial that there is a problem
2. Accusations that even asking the question is a cover for racism.
3. Stoic acceptance that nothing can be done.
I don't know how I can get people to consider that shutting down uncomfortable conversations with accusations of "-ism" actually leads to the opposite result they want. Such argument terminating cliches only frighten people for so long before people stop listening and caring about people who can only throw around these accusations.
I would think that on an atheist forum this type of thing would be acutely understood. Haven't many of us experienced the thought/argument terminating cliches over and over from religious circles?
It is like a religious person having legitimate questions about religious doctrine and only be confronted with "you have to have faith" or "you are just angry at god" or "no true christian would ask such a thing".
Why is it so difficult to accept that such as question is being asked in good faith? That people are actually trying to find solutions to uncomfortable problems? That people with a different point of view are not evil or the enemy?
1. Denial that there is a problem
2. Accusations that even asking the question is a cover for racism.
3. Stoic acceptance that nothing can be done.
I don't know how I can get people to consider that shutting down uncomfortable conversations with accusations of "-ism" actually leads to the opposite result they want. Such argument terminating cliches only frighten people for so long before people stop listening and caring about people who can only throw around these accusations.
I would think that on an atheist forum this type of thing would be acutely understood. Haven't many of us experienced the thought/argument terminating cliches over and over from religious circles?
It is like a religious person having legitimate questions about religious doctrine and only be confronted with "you have to have faith" or "you are just angry at god" or "no true christian would ask such a thing".
Why is it so difficult to accept that such as question is being asked in good faith? That people are actually trying to find solutions to uncomfortable problems? That people with a different point of view are not evil or the enemy?
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
Yes, Adam. You are right.
The biggest problem is that those here used to defending political correctness are used to defending it from "right-wingers" like Rush Limbaugh or Underseer. So the cliches work very well.
But those automatic responses don't work very well for internal discussions of the problem. Instead they actually present a good case of those automatic responses being used to shut down discussion instead of advancing the discussion. Those automatic responses are the only responses some people have. It's a common ailment in politics, that the canned soundbite is the entirety of some peoples ability to discuss issues.
I don't think there's nothing that can be done about it, but I'm just sitting back and watching instead of naming the problem. Let untermensch deny there is a problem, I think that his way is preventing the advancement of his cause.
The biggest problem is that those here used to defending political correctness are used to defending it from "right-wingers" like Rush Limbaugh or Underseer. So the cliches work very well.
But those automatic responses don't work very well for internal discussions of the problem. Instead they actually present a good case of those automatic responses being used to shut down discussion instead of advancing the discussion. Those automatic responses are the only responses some people have. It's a common ailment in politics, that the canned soundbite is the entirety of some peoples ability to discuss issues.
I don't think there's nothing that can be done about it, but I'm just sitting back and watching instead of naming the problem. Let untermensch deny there is a problem, I think that his way is preventing the advancement of his cause.
laughing dog
Contributor
Perhaps you could try to make a case that this is an actual outcome instead of some vague hypothesis.
AthenaAwakened
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I think people have different levels of what constitutes a problem.
If the police are shooting at you, then that's a problem
If you can't say the word nigger without someone saying wtf and the wtf hurts your feelings, not so much a problem.
Honest to goodness
When I hear white men (and it is usually white men) complaining about political correctness is inconveniencing their lives, my first thought is
Poor baby, would you like some cheese with that whine?
You're asking for a solution to the Gish Gallop and the PRATT (Point Refuted A Thousand Times)
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Point_refuted_a_thousand_times
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop
It's very easy for people to invent bullshit; it takes much more time to refute that bullshit. People don't have enough time to investigate and refute all such claims.
Look at Europe Submits Voluntarily (the whole thread) for an example of this in action.
I can point to the rise of far right anti-immigrant groups in Europe as an example. I argue that the left in Europe has hindered having a meaningful conversation about the wisdom of large scale immigration of groups into a different culture.
I don't think that these far-right groups would have a voice if there were sensible middle ground that could face the issue (of what has already been acknowledged across Europe) failed attempts at multiculturalism.
I certainly understand what a Gish Gallop is, answering such a thing can be done, there are even who websites devoted to such issues (like talk origins). However, making no attempt because any argument from a "bad person" must be invalid is not going to work.
In this case saying the crime statistics (which everybody can access) are false because (even self described) racists are using them is not an argument.
Horatio Parker
Veteran Member
Right wingers cite crime and race statistics frequently.
Liberals not so much.
But what I'm confused about is whether you consider RW crime/race statistics debunked, or rather are you pointing out that LWers don't engage the statistics.
Liberals not so much.
But what I'm confused about is whether you consider RW crime/race statistics debunked, or rather are you pointing out that LWers don't engage the statistics.
laughing dog
Contributor
I think you are confusing correlation with causation. Moreover, I don't see how PC has hindered a meaningful conservation (whatever that means to you).
I think you are naive. Extremists of any ilk are basically immune to sensible middle grounds - that is what makes them extremists.
ideologyhunter
Contributor
Trump: one eeeUGE, visible fart who mocks just about all the P.C. flashpoints. But I doubt if many of his followers ever respected the boundaries that classic P.C. tries to bring to public discourse. They seem to me to be the ones who never on board for any of it.
I can understand why you are confused.... because I haven't stated my position.
This was done purposely so we could focus on the actual point instead of people diverting the conversation with personal issues like discounting my argument because you can apply a label to me instead of thinking. See OP
I think there is a bigger number who cannot speak what they think because of the issue I am describing in the OP. Criticizing people for "Wrong Think" doesn't stop them from thinking, you actually have to offer a coherent rebuttal.... that is the point of this thread.
You illustrate my point for me.
Not even that--rather, what we are after is a time when you don't have to worry about hidden offense when none is intended.
untermensche
Contributor
Where are these people who "cannot speak"?
What the fuck are you talking about?
How about ONE real world example.
>Where are these people who "cannot speak"?
Loads of people who don't want to be called racists, misogynists, or what-ever-ism that people use as a thought terminating cliche. The fact the Trump is leading in polls and Fox News seems to be going strong might be an indicator that there are people who are not being heard. I think we ignore these people at our peril.
You can meet these bad ideas (not bad people) with good ideas, not personal attacks.. Remember how we used to say on the forum, "Attack ideas not people?"
>How about ONE real world example.
I refuse to be more specific than the examples in the OP. In my experience, people would be delighted to not discuss the actual topic. Besides, no matter what example I bring up, it will likely be met with accusations of 'isms' rather than honest rational inquiry. So lets stick to the meta problem.
***
Maybe you can answer something from the OP.
When I tried to get skeptic forums to help me debunk the 'big list of crime statistics' often posted by stormfront types, how come the only response that I got from "skeptics" was "those people are bad therefor their arguments are bad" or "you must be sympathetic towards those bad people"?
Seriously, the only person who was there defending their beliefs was the guy from /r/coontown! WTF skeptics have you completely lost your ability to think!!! And it was all because they refused to act like skeptics and debunk... they could only give personal attacks. It was an absolute failure.
You know what readers of that forum left with? The idea that the racists might have a point because the "Rationalists" and "Skeptics" couldn't muster a single good argument.
untermensche
Contributor
So you don't have ONE real world example?
If not you have NOTHING but hot air that nobody should take seriously.
ryan
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Why worry about the Left; they seem to be doing just fine. Barring any major screw-ups, Hilary has this in the bag.
I don't think it's so much that Trump is doing well; I think it's that everyone else in the GOP is doing poorly.
untermensche
Contributor
It is "you're" not "your".