Does your ideology include a clause that says you should raise hell against evil religions?

[Politesse]

Terrible idea. Visiting pain on others is an invitation for them to do the same, locking people and nations in troubles that never dissipate.

Harm reduction always imposes a penalty on the one whose ethics are shown to be immoral.

If you do not cause pain to the ill, to kill the hurt they will inflict on those we we love, --- the well, --- will get infected.

Regards
DL

I also believe that the sick should be healed, not killed.

Talk to the genocidal god, Yahweh/Jesus.

That Christian god, and his followers, need healing that few seem to care enough to administer.

Regards
DL

Well no, I am talking to you. The person who started the thread. YHWH may interject His opinion himself if he likes, presumably he has access to the internet, at which time I would be happy to talk with him about it.

I meant in the spirit of the O.P.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Regards
DL

I am not interested in "talking" to a party who is not present in the discussion.

If you are saying that you endorse the Proverbs passage personally, I also do not believe '"correcting" people necessarily requires harming them, nor have I ever seen deliberate harm as a productive means of instruction. As that same chapter admonishes: "Do not envy the violent, nor choose any of their ways... [The Lord] mocks proud mockers, but shows favor to the humble and oppressed."

You show the harm in correcting someone.

Who is not here?

Regards
DL

Perhaps "raising hell" means something different to you than to me, your reverence.

Insert gays and women harmed by homophobic and misogynous religions to this quote. You should get an idea of what hell you should be raising with the homophobic and misogynous mainstream religions, --- if you live by the golden rule.

Please get back to me with your conclusion.

Martin Niemöller
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Regards
DL

I'm a gay man myself. This does not change the fact that harming others is not a part of my ideology, as you say.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

...given that I call myself a Gnostic Christian.
What is a gnostic Christian?

Does yours, and how do you exercise that degrading chore?

I don't understand this question. Please clarify.

I was wondering what you did to help in the harm reduction.

Do you seek evil religions out ,away from a safer places like here?

Quite a number of fundy places have banned me.

Regards
DL

 

[Politesse]

...given that I call myself a Gnostic Christian.
What is a gnostic Christian?

Does yours, and how do you exercise that degrading chore?

I don't understand this question. Please clarify.

I was wondering what you did to help in the harm reduction.

Do you seek evil religions out ,away from a safer places like here?

Quite a number of fundy places have banned me.

Regards
DL

Out of curiosity, how did getting banned at those fundy websites help you accomplish your goals?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I'm a gay man myself. This does not change the fact that harming others is not a part of my ideology, as you say.

The harm I see myself doing in changing one homophobe mind, and saving even one gays from discrimination without a just cause, is well worth it.

Ask any dead gay, or living one, one along with any women, if the Golden Rule preaches equality or something else?

Give me all homophobes and misogynous, and what a Christian told me to justify Yahweh and genocide, might apply.

Sometimes genocide is the best solution.

God help me. I am turning Christian.

No way.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

...given that I call myself a Gnostic Christian.
What is a gnostic Christian?

Does yours, and how do you exercise that degrading chore?

I don't understand this question. Please clarify.

I was wondering what you did to help in the harm reduction.

Do you seek evil religions out ,away from a safer places like here?

Quite a number of fundy places have banned me.

Regards
DL

Out of curiosity, how did getting banned at those fundy websites help you accomplish your goals?

It showed me the depth of their insecurity and helped me change tactics.

I cannot help it if fear rules so many.

Regards
DL

 

[steve_bank]

Issues like genocide are complex. IMO relgion plays a small role.

It is about history, culture, arce, ethnicity, land, and economics. The Kosovo conflict had a long history and the roots still exist today. Ethnic and cultural bias.

Turks vs Kurds.

Ethiopians vs Ethiopians.

Rwanda.


If Gnostic does righteous battle against he homophobes, how does he reconcile gay marriage with the words of Jesus? I have no problem with gays, but I do not see how you can be gay or support gay rights and claim to be a follower of Jesus based on the gospels, the bible and Jewish tradition. Jesus was said to be a rabbi quoting Jewish scripture and prophets.

If yiu rail aginst the evil homophobes, what about the divorced and evil fornicators? Like many, many Chritians yiu have invneted a Jesus in your own image rgadless of what scripture actually says.

If Gnostic is to protect us from religion, who is to protect us from him and his minions? Another Christian with delusions of grandeur and power.

 

[steve_bank]

Terrible idea. Visiting pain on others is an invitation for them to do the same, locking people and nations in troubles that never dissipate.

Harm reduction always imposes a penalty on the one whose ethics are shown to be immoral.

If you do not cause pain to the ill, to kill the hurt they will inflict on those we we love, --- the well, --- will get infected.

Regards
DL

I also believe that the sick should be healed, not killed.

Talk to the genocidal god, Yahweh/Jesus.

That Christian god, and his followers, need healing that few seem to care enough to administer.

Regards
DL

Well no, I am talking to you. The person who started the thread. YHWH may interject His opinion himself if he likes, presumably he has access to the internet, at which time I would be happy to talk with him about it.

I meant in the spirit of the O.P.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Regards
DL

Te problem with religion and all human social groups is the assumption of person or power group that assumes godlike powers of right and wrong.

A worse case example is Trump. He knows all and sees all. What he says is always absolutely true and correct.

You read a scant nmuber of words alleged to have come from a person for whom there is no corroboration, read words in a disjointed set of texts from an ancient people, interpret, and judge. That is what all Christians do.

Same quetion I asked Learner who did not answer.

In the gispels Jesus says marrage is between one man and one woman. That pretty much rules out gay marriage. Do you agree? Do you have gay friends?

Do you have friends gay or straight that have sex outside of a marriage IOW fornicators? If so do you attack what is biblcaly evil?

Do you correct friends who are divorced? Who lie? Who do not honor father and moter?

My guess is yiu are just a routine sort of Christian who picks and chooses what 'evil' to sermonize about.

To me those who appoint themselves judge and jury are the worse 'evil'.

Thanks for your judgements.

You have seen me write against homophobia, and I take it that you were being rhetorical or something.

Regards
DL

More food for thought for you than judgements. I came to this forum to criticize the negative aspects of beliefs. As the old DC polical joke goes, if you want a friend in DC get a dog.

To me you appear no different than typical Chrtians who you appear to despise as evil relgion. The fir order of any belief system is to create an enemy on which to focus. The enemy sreves to make the individual and group feel superior, it creates an identity.

You invoked 1984. The autorterian powers in 1984 had a stream of shifting enemies to focus pipular attention on. We see it in our media. NK is a small threat to us, yet when the leader farts our media manufactures a crisis. Putin uses the USA and NATO as an existential threat to mother Russia, even though there is little of interest in Russia.

Working for gy rights is one thing, self righteousness is another.

As one who looks to Freethought I reject all -isms including Gnosticism as limiting and prone to abuse of power.

I do not need Jesus in any fror secular or supernatural to tell me gays shoud not be opressed.

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

Does your ideology include a Claus who comes down the chimney once a year? If not, why?

Eldarion Lathria

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Issues like genocide are complex. IMO relgion plays a small role.

It is about history, culture, arce, ethnicity, land, and economics. The Kosovo conflict had a long history and the roots still exist today. Ethnic and cultural bias.

Turks vs Kurds.

Ethiopians vs Ethiopians.

Rwanda.


If Gnostic does righteous battle against he homophobes, how does he reconcile gay marriage with the words of Jesus? I have no problem with gays, but I do not see how you can be gay or support gay rights and claim to be a follower of Jesus based on the gospels, the bible and Jewish tradition. Jesus was said to be a rabbi quoting Jewish scripture and prophets.

If yiu rail aginst the evil homophobes, what about the divorced and evil fornicators? Like many, many Chritians yiu have invneted a Jesus in your own image rgadless of what scripture actually says.

If Gnostic is to protect us from religion, who is to protect us from him and his minions? Another Christian with delusions of grandeur and power.

I could have lived without your ending, but let me speak to the rest.

You do not seem to know that Jesus put love above sex or gender.

Homophobes are not as moral as others and do not follow Jesus because they put sex and gender above love.

Gays are better adjusted mentally because they put love above sex and gender just as Jesus did.

I do not have to invent a Jesus as the esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Jesus is quite apparent, even as it is the Rome created Jesus who dominates.

Look at how my Jesus is shown in the bible.

Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation and “I am”, represents the best rules and laws that we have found to live by.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
Alan Watts - On The Book of Eli - YouTube

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.
On Becoming an Adult - YouTube

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Does your ideology include a Claus who comes down the chimney once a year? If not, why?

Eldarion Lathria

Claus gives gifts only.

The other religious genocidal prick brings hell to the vast majority, if the scriptures are literally and stupidly believed.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Terrible idea. Visiting pain on others is an invitation for them to do the same, locking people and nations in troubles that never dissipate.

Harm reduction always imposes a penalty on the one whose ethics are shown to be immoral.

If you do not cause pain to the ill, to kill the hurt they will inflict on those we we love, --- the well, --- will get infected.

Regards
DL

I also believe that the sick should be healed, not killed.

Talk to the genocidal god, Yahweh/Jesus.

That Christian god, and his followers, need healing that few seem to care enough to administer.

Regards
DL

Well no, I am talking to you. The person who started the thread. YHWH may interject His opinion himself if he likes, presumably he has access to the internet, at which time I would be happy to talk with him about it.

I meant in the spirit of the O.P.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Regards
DL

Te problem with religion and all human social groups is the assumption of person or power group that assumes godlike powers of right and wrong.

A worse case example is Trump. He knows all and sees all. What he says is always absolutely true and correct.

You read a scant nmuber of words alleged to have come from a person for whom there is no corroboration, read words in a disjointed set of texts from an ancient people, interpret, and judge. That is what all Christians do.

Same quetion I asked Learner who did not answer.

In the gispels Jesus says marrage is between one man and one woman. That pretty much rules out gay marriage. Do you agree? Do you have gay friends?

Do you have friends gay or straight that have sex outside of a marriage IOW fornicators? If so do you attack what is biblcaly evil?

Do you correct friends who are divorced? Who lie? Who do not honor father and moter?

My guess is yiu are just a routine sort of Christian who picks and chooses what 'evil' to sermonize about.

To me those who appoint themselves judge and jury are the worse 'evil'.

Thanks for your judgements.

You have seen me write against homophobia, and I take it that you were being rhetorical or something.

Regards
DL

More food for thought for you than judgements. I came to this forum to criticize the negative aspects of beliefs. As the old DC polical joke goes, if you want a friend in DC get a dog.

To me you appear no different than typical Chrtians who you appear to despise as evil relgion. The fir order of any belief system is to create an enemy on which to focus. The enemy sreves to make the individual and group feel superior, it creates an identity.

You invoked 1984. The autorterian powers in 1984 had a stream of shifting enemies to focus pipular attention on. We see it in our media. NK is a small threat to us, yet when the leader farts our media manufactures a crisis. Putin uses the USA and NATO as an existential threat to mother Russia, even though there is little of interest in Russia.

Working for gy rights is one thing, self righteousness is another.

As one who looks to Freethought I reject all -isms including Gnosticism as limiting and prone to abuse of power.

I do not need Jesus in any fror secular or supernatural to tell me gays shoud not be opressed.

Good, now let me do my work of discrediting the god religions without having to deal with you in your safe space here.

Thanks for all the personal garbage though. It shows your thinking.,

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.

Regards
DL

 

[Angry Floof]

No. My ideology does, however, include an imperative to speak out against injustice, abuse, corruption, and ideologies that promote things like ignorance and authoritarianism. Religion at this time is just all that stuff pooled together and congealed. There are religions that do not pool in that direction, but they don't dominate across humanity and that’s a whole different discussion anyway.

Both religion and atheism are irrelevant to my basic principles and to my identity and essential nature as a human being. They are only important in context, albeit an important context at the present time. They are part of the foam of a culture. Hopefully there will come a time when neither concept is relevant in any context.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

No. My ideology does, however, include an imperative to speak out against injustice, abuse, corruption, and ideologies that promote things like ignorance and authoritarianism. Religion at this time is just all that stuff pooled together and congealed. There are religions that do not pool in that direction, but they don't dominate across humanity and that’s a whole different discussion anyway.

Both religion and atheism are irrelevant to my basic principles and to my identity and essential nature as a human being. They are only important in context, albeit an important context at the present time. They are part of the foam of a culture. Hopefully there will come a time when neither concept is relevant in any context.

What would you replace religions with, when the fellowship needs our DNA and instinct created need appeasement, which religions provide, even if poorly?

I like that atheist churches are stating to replace religious churches, as I see a need to protect children from the supernatural beliefs.

I think we will return to the days of Mystery Schools.

Regards
DL

 

[steve_bank]

Non religious atrocities

WWII Japanese in China, Tojo and the Emporer
NK today
China oppressing ethnic and racial minorities
Cambodia 'killing fields', Pol Por
Stalinist purges
Mao
Rwanda
Uganda Idi Amin
Iraq Hussein, gassed civilians.
Hitler

Hard to single out religion s a prime source of atrocities and genocide. All of it begins with the premise those I/WE opress are evil and I/We are good and true. It all begins with the presumption I/We know hat is best and right.

 

[Angry Floof]

No. My ideology does, however, include an imperative to speak out against injustice, abuse, corruption, and ideologies that promote things like ignorance and authoritarianism. Religion at this time is just all that stuff pooled together and congealed. There are religions that do not pool in that direction, but they don't dominate across humanity and that’s a whole different discussion anyway.

Both religion and atheism are irrelevant to my basic principles and to my identity and essential nature as a human being. They are only important in context, albeit an important context at the present time. They are part of the foam of a culture. Hopefully there will come a time when neither concept is relevant in any context.

What would you replace religions with,

Religion replaces itself all the time, sometimes with the same old kind of manipulations of animal brain fears and prejudices (because that's fantastically effective in controlling people and controlling people is a particularly corrosive power), and sometimes with new ideas that reflect self awareness and conscience and not indoctrination of ignorance and outright lies.

If you want sane ideology and spiritual practices to replace the religious institutions we have now, then promote education, self reflection, respect for autonomy, cooperation, cultivation of empathy, questioning power, protecting the vulnerable, protecting human rights, etc. Much of religion as we know it actually stands in opposition to the peace and well being of a tribe of seven billion.

Speaking of, side note: one reason ideologies and social structures of the past are becoming diseased is because we evolved over eons in small groups. Our current reality, which is a tribe of seven billion (like it or not), is quite literally an alien world to our brains' responses. We're in uncharted territory, but it's one where clearly tribalism is not an effective survival strategy, but one where cooperation and compassion will be the things that help us most as we adapt. And adapt we surely will because we are nothing if not adaptable.

when the fellowship needs our DNA and instinct created need appeasement, which religions provide, even if poorly?

Religion doesn't provide those things. Society does, ideology does, community does, culture does, all human creations. People create those things in response to our own needs. We don't get it from the ether or anywhere outside of human heads. But it's understandable that even atheists and freethinkers still have that assumption wedged down deep that religion is something that creates us or is given to us from somewhere or someone other than ourselves.

As our understanding of ourselves changes, the ideological stuff we create will reflect that. That's religion replacing itself. And of course it all depends on the specific definition of religion. Is it a module of human existence, something so distinctly delineated from all other human endeavor that it can be removed or replaced like an amputated limb? I don't think that is a useful mental model of religion. In fact, much of religion presents itself as such and calls itself divinity.

I think it's more useful to understand religion as an artifact of human experience. That artifact can be in the form of useful progress and higher consciousness or it can be dark ages ignorance and atrocity. So we create what we know. We create ideology about whatever is important and meaningful to us. And we may or may not call any of this "religion" in the far future as humanity hurtles through the chaos of the modern world of constant change and global connectivity.

An important aspect of religion that we should understand is that ideologies can take on a sort of life of their own in their influence on us, as if the religion itself was an entity with intention and agency affecting us from without and supposedly providing us with everything we need in terms of understanding what the fuck this weird existence is about. That's the realization that moves people from a religious world view to something more secular and inquisitive.

One problem in how we think about religion and ideology in general is that, as individuals, we think everything is going according to our internal narratives, when in reality it's our collective actions, decisions, relationships, interactions, personalities, and attitudes, etc., that aggregate into our shared reality, which no one controls or even knows what it's doing. We're limited in that way, but we're not limited in how we understand and conceptualize a bigger picture and strive for more knowledge and accuracy.

I like that atheist churches are stating to replace religious churches, as I see a need to protect children from the supernatural beliefs.

I think we will return to the days of Mystery Schools.

Regards
DL

I think you need to think in much bigger terms to truly answer your questions. No offense.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Non religious atrocities

WWII Japanese in China, Tojo and the Emporer
NK today
China oppressing ethnic and racial minorities
Cambodia 'killing fields', Pol Por
Stalinist purges
Mao
Rwanda
Uganda Idi Amin
Iraq Hussein, gassed civilians.
Hitler

Hard to single out religion s a prime source of atrocities and genocide. All of it begins with the premise those I/WE opress are evil and I/We are good and true. It all begins with the presumption I/We know hat is best and right.

Think long term history, and inquisitions and jihads, as well as the ongoing homophobia and misogyny victims of religions, --- and look at the garbage you wrote for the first time.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Religion doesn't provide those things.

You have done your homework in social studies, but your conclusions are wrong because you do not recognize that we are a tribal species and religions/shaman, along with some king, have always led.

The state is replacing religions today as the security blanket, but to say that religions and other tribes do not provide what our selfish gene demands in fellowship shows you need a lot more homework.

Might I suggest ----

Regards
DL

 

[Angry Floof]

Religion doesn't provide those things.

You have done your homework in social studies, but your conclusions are wrong because you do not recognize that we are a tribal species

We are a lot of things besides tribal. We also have learned a lot in our time on earth, and continue to build on that knowledge, which grows exponentially and includes an understanding of ourselves that wasn't possible before modern times. As I said, we are nothing if not adaptable. Nothing is static or absolute in humanity, and that includes the level of understanding and knowledge a leader has.

Religion is ideology, our creation, an artifact of human endeavor. Religion is the result of certain primal realities, but it is not a part of our essential nature than a hammer or a painting. It's a reflection, not our nature itself.

and religions/shaman, along with some king, have always led.

So what? Nothing is static or absolute in human nature or the artifacts we create, and those artifacts include governments, philosophies, economic systems, etc., none of which is guaranteed to be the same or even exist in a hundred or a thousand years. Not sure of your point here in regard to my post.

The state is replacing religions today as the security blanket, but to say that religions and other tribes do not provide what our selfish gene demands in fellowship shows you need a lot more homework.

No, I don't. Once again religion is an artifact of human activity.

NO artifact of human activity provides us with what we already have and what gave rise to the artifact to begin with, no matter how reflective of our nature or how significant it becomes in our ideological evolution.

Art does not provide us the impetus to make art.

Might I suggest ----

No, but I DO get your point.

And my point in response is that we are complex and highly adaptable beings. Yes, we're struggling to adapt to a global tribe, but that is reality and we have no choice but to respond to the world we actually live in and experience our existence in, and that is a world where our tribe is seven billion. Yes, we have strong selfish urges, but we also know at the animal brain level that we will not survive without the group. We're both selfish and not selfish. We're both collective and individualistic. It's both, and much more.

Yes, one way of responding to a tribe of seven billion is to dig in deeper on the tribalism. But it's not a given that this is the only option for adapting to a world of seven billion.

Your video topic is just one aspect of human nature and evolution. We also have a tremendous capacity for cooperation and learning and constructing a usefully realistic mental map of the world around us, and right now, that world is a tribe of seven billion.

It's not a given that we'll always be chopping our world into tribes.

It's not a given that violence and competition are our only strategies in adapting to this brand new world (in evolutionary terms).

It's not a given that we won't overcome tribalism or that the underlying primal imperatives that give rise to tribalism will not take a new form in a different environment. That is the definition of evolution. And we ARE now in a different environment from the one we evolved in, so that's gonna get some resistance from our brains, but again, we are nothing if not adaptable.

Survival depends on adaptation, not on physical strength or even intelligence, but adaptability in general. And there is no reason to believe that tribalism that evolved in small non-technological groups is going to be the essential element of how we continue to adapt to a world where tribalism as we know it is poison.

We also have a primal impetus for peace, comfort, and cooperation. Our brains are more than capable of adapting to new realities, including the reality of a tribe of seven billion and including tribalism as we know it becoming vestigial. Your tribe is mapped by your brain through the people you know exist within it. And now you know that your tribe is seven billion, primal balking or no.

I really think men should address their need for fighting and competition, and not insist that all of humanity make sportsball and bar fights our destiny. They need to find the rest of their humanity and soon.

 

[steve_bank]

Non religious atrocities

WWII Japanese in China, Tojo and the Emporer
NK today
China oppressing ethnic and racial minorities
Cambodia 'killing fields', Pol Por
Stalinist purges
Mao
Rwanda
Uganda Idi Amin
Iraq Hussein, gassed civilians.
Hitler

Hard to single out religion s a prime source of atrocities and genocide. All of it begins with the premise those I/WE opress are evil and I/We are good and true. It all begins with the presumption I/We know hat is best and right.

Think long term history, and inquisitions and jihads, as well as the ongoing homophobia and misogyny victims of religions, --- and look at the garbage you wrote for the first time.

Regards
DL

I expect you are being willfully ignorant, which is what a zealot does. A singular focus on one aspect of a perceived wrong ignoring any other sources.

The Stalinist inquisition, the Mao communist inquisition as the Cultural Revolution, Castro's communist inquisition, the inquisition right now in Kazakhstan. The militarily is shooting democracy and anti corruption demonstrators on sight.

As I always say there are positives and negatives to religion and any beliefs. Given the atheist by ideology communist experiments I would say overall we are better with religion than without.

Historically the European Christian environment gave rise to the thought that led to western democracy. Humanism came out of Christianity. Our western cultural sense of fainess and right and wrong comes from Chritianity, despite the historical Christian abuses.

I read a balanced critical history of Christianity by a priest. There is more to the history of Christianity than the Inquisition.

It is far more complex than a good/evil white/black dichotomy. Such absolute contrast is fodder for zealots and dictators. It makes for a simple battle cry for zealots to motivate followers.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

And my point in response is that we are complex and highly adaptable beings.

That cannot live without our tribal instincts, which you downplay.

Our tribal natures and selfishness controls all we do.

Thanks for you many other poor opinions.

Try arguments.

Regards
DL