Driving while black--oops, the cops have video

[laughing dog]

And it's certainly not all black people--at one point three of our 4 immediate neighbors were black. (One couple is now dead of old age, one is in an assisted care place and the house behind us has sat vacant but cared for for some years now, we think they're in California but we aren't sure.) They were all good people. The difference is they were all educated people who had been raised properly, not welfare tickets.

Ignoring the idiocy of using a nonrandom sample of 4 people in drawing such generalizations,why should anyone accept your observation as the result of disinterested deep thinking about society instead of some morally reprehensible bias? A reasonable conclusion from this post is that you believe black people who were raised on "welfare tickets" are not "good people".

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I am going to go with 'probably one or two'.

I am also going to hazard a guess that you have jumped to the unsupported conclusion 'all of them', and will use this to justify ignoring any and all future claims of police abuse of their power.

There's no reason to think it's all of them. On the other hand there's no reason to think it's only one or two. Plenty of people like blaming racism when it's not the cause.

Loren, does racism exist?

 

[fast]

I have a thought. It might be a stupid thought, but for what it's worth, a police officer with racist views may be more impartial or indifferent than we give them credit for. How they act may be more a function of a suspects action, behavior, attitude, and disposition ... than even by officers that do not have racist views. It's because of their own self-awareness that their own internal thoughts would not be socially acceptable that they take that extra initiative to be race neutral in their initial treatment of calm black people.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I have a thought. It might be a stupid thought, but for what it's worth, a police officer with racist views may be more impartial or indifferent than we give them credit for. How they act may be more a function of a suspects action, behavior, attitude, and disposition ... than even by officers that do not have racist views. It's because of their own self-awareness that their own internal thoughts would not be socially acceptable that they take that extra initiative to be race neutral in their initial treatment of calm black people.

That's possible, but not likely. It seems more likely IMO that a cop with a racist ideation is more likely to fill in the gaps of his knowledge with preconceptions about the people he's dealing with, potentially to the point that anything a potential suspect says or does is interpreted to confirm his ideology.

Just to be clear: there's a difference between racial prejudice and racist ideology. The former is based on simple ignorance and the lack of meaningful effort to think past negative stereotypes. The latter is an INFORMED ideology that makes positive statements about the world and about the relative standing of different racial groups in it. A racist is a person who believes that HIS race is superior and/or that other races are degenerate or inferior in some fundamental way.

While it's entirely plausible than an avowed white supremacist would be more careful than usual to avoid drawing attention to himself -- and there are reasons to believe this may actually be the case -- that ideology is most likely going to manifest in behavior when that officer finds himself under emotional stress.

ETA: Which is something that struck me in the video shot by Demetrius Pace. Officer Tensing insists he identify himself, which he refuses to do; then he pulls open his car door and orders him to step out of the car, which he also refuses to do; asked why he needs to show some ID, Tensing answers "Because you have a warrant or something." That reflects a "guilty until proven innocent" approach to dealing with black people that can cause a perfectly routine traffic stop to turn into a confrontation.

 

[atrib]

I didn't say "a black person." I said "black people." This thread is basically a sequel to the "Dark side of #blacklivesmatter" thread.

You'll also notice that Loren has never actually stated "Palestinians are liars" either, even if that is the very clear subtext of almost every thread he has started that focusses on Palestinian conduct.

And that's what racism looks like in the 21st century. We live in an era where it is no longer socially acceptable to come right out and say it, so people with a racist agenda have to resort to this dog-whistle crap and pretend they're really talking about something else (I again point to the famous example of Lester Maddox, who for several years marched black people out of his restaurant at gunpoint while vehemently claiming that he was not a racist).

The subtext here is pretty obvious:
The truth is, black people are stupid and violent, have criminal tendencies and are often confrontational. The whole police brutality scandal is nothing more than anti-white racism by black people who acknowledge that their own bad behavior is the entirety of the problem. The problem is not white supremacy or oppression of minorities, the problem is black degeneracy and their entitlement mentality and all the liberals who constantly pander to them and make them stupid, self-serving racist ideology seem legitimate.

Wrong.

What I'm pointing out with both threads is that this crusade for black people is bad for everyone, especially black people. So long as we keep making excuses the problems won't be addressed.

And it's certainly not all black people--at one point three of our 4 immediate neighbors were black. (One couple is now dead of old age, one is in an assisted care place and the house behind us has sat vacant but cared for for some years now, we think they're in California but we aren't sure.) They were all good people. The difference is they were all educated people who had been raised properly, not welfare tickets.

So black children who grow up in poverty with parents who have used welfare to feed them, and who did not get the opportunity to go to college are not good people. I see what you're saying, and it's not racist at all.

Here is some news for you, racism exists. I have experienced racism many times in various forms, and I am a highly educated brown man with a very well paying job who was raised in an educated family who never needed welfare. I can only imagine what life is like for poor black and brown people who hold modest jobs and can only afford basic transportation.

 

[Bomb#20]

Loren isn't the one who said a black person lied.

I didn't say "a black person." I said "black people." This thread is basically a sequel to the "Dark side of #blacklivesmatter" thread.

You'll also notice that Loren has never actually stated "Palestinians are liars" either, even if that is the very clear subtext of almost every thread he has started that focusses on Palestinian conduct.

And that's what racism looks like in the 21st century. We live in an era where it is no longer socially acceptable to come right out and say it, so people with a racist agenda have to resort to this dog-whistle crap and pretend they're really talking about something else (I again point to the famous example of Lester Maddox, who for several years marched black people out of his restaurant at gunpoint while vehemently claiming that he was not a racist).

The subtext here is pretty obvious:
The truth is, black people are stupid and violent, have criminal tendencies and are often confrontational. The whole police brutality scandal is nothing more than anti-white racism by black people who acknowledge that their own bad behavior is the entirety of the problem. The problem is not white supremacy or oppression of minorities, the problem is black degeneracy and their entitlement mentality and all the liberals who constantly pander to them and make them stupid, self-serving racist ideology seem legitimate.

Sorry, I took your post for carelessness, not deliberately putting words in his mouth. My mistake.

... It seems more likely IMO that a cop with a racist ideation is more likely to fill in the gaps of his knowledge with preconceptions about the people he's dealing with, potentially to the point that anything a potential suspect says or does is interpreted to confirm his ideology. ...

I.e., a cop with a racist ideation is more likely to do precisely the same thing to a suspect that you just did to Loren. You filled in the gaps of your knowledge with preconceptions about him to the point that you'd interpret anything he wrote as confirming your ideology. His subtext, obviously, was that lots of anti-police bigots lie and lots of them fill in the gaps of their knowledge with preconceptions about police to the point that they can interpret anything a cop does as confirming their ideology. And anti-police bigots, obviously, come in all colors. You interpreted an attack on anti-police bigots as an attack on black people, not because Loren said a damn thing to imply black people are any more likely to lie than white people, but because it fit your ideology's narrative about its unbelievers.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

... It seems more likely IMO that a cop with a racist ideation is more likely to fill in the gaps of his knowledge with preconceptions about the people he's dealing with, potentially to the point that anything a potential suspect says or does is interpreted to confirm his ideology. ...

I.e., a cop with a racist ideation is more likely to do precisely the same thing to a suspect that you just did to Loren. You filled in the gaps of your knowledge with preconceptions about him to the point that you'd interpret anything he wrote as confirming your ideology.

LP has had ample opportunity in this forum, over the course of several years, to demonstrate the actual substance of his worldview as something other than than the thinly veiled racism it increasingly appears to be as of late. You may feel free to give him the benefit of the doubt; I no longer do.

You interpreted an attack on anti-police bigots as an attack on black people, not because Loren said a damn thing to imply black people are any more likely to lie than white people, but because it fit your ideology's narrative about its unbelievers.

No, because it fits what I understand about LP's behavior and the substance of his posts. There are certain people in this world for whom no condemnation is too much, against which no abuse is too harsh, for whom any compassion or sympathy is undeserved. This comes out most clearly in the "Palestinians are terrorists and cannot be trusted" threads, and we have been round and round in endless circles trying to establish whether or not there are ANY Palestinians LP believes are redeemable, trustworthy, or even human.

Today we see that exact same rhetoric directed at his second favorite target. The patterns are the same, the attitude is the same, and the conclusions are essentially the same.

So a man who expresses his hatred for a person in 50 different ways and then says "I don't hate you" is either confused about what he really believes or is not being honest with me. I don't care which at this point.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There's no reason to think it's all of them. On the other hand there's no reason to think it's only one or two. Plenty of people like blaming racism when it's not the cause.

Loren, does racism exist?

Sure it does.

However, it's not enough of a factor to keep people down. The marketplace can't support that at least in most places--if discrimination was enough to suppress black wages then some smart businessman would hire a bunch of cheap black workers. You can only have large-scale discrimination when there is a cost to the company to hire the target of the discrimination. (As there was before the 60s--hiring blacks for non-menial jobs would reflect badly on the company.)

- - - Updated - - -

So black children who grow up in poverty with parents who have used welfare to feed them, and who did not get the opportunity to go to college are not good people. I see what you're saying, and it's not racist at all.

Here is some news for you, racism exists. I have experienced racism many times in various forms, and I am a highly educated brown man with a very well paying job who was raised in an educated family who never needed welfare. I can only imagine what life is like for poor black and brown people who hold modest jobs and can only afford basic transportation.

To a very large degree we reflect our genetics & upbringing. You can't just pretend the problems don't exist, putting gangbangers in Harvard won't improve the situation one bit.

The only real fix is to address the problems very early on.

 

[Toni]

Loren, does racism exist?

Sure it does.

However, it's not enough of a factor to keep people down.

And you know this because?

The marketplace can't support that at least in most places--if discrimination was enough to suppress black wages then some smart businessman would hire a bunch of cheap black workers. You can only have large-scale discrimination when there is a cost to the company to hire the target of the discrimination. (As there was before the 60s--hiring blacks for non-menial jobs would reflect badly on the company.)

Only the market place is a factor? There is no societal prejudice, no discrimination that exists within the structure of society? Children's aspirations are not influenced by their parents' achievements? By expectations, explicit and otherwise, of their parents and family, teachers, school mates, and so on?

My observations are quite the opposite of yours. BTW, I grew up surrounded by white faces, in an extremely homogeneous area.

- - - Updated - - -

To a very large degree we reflect our genetics & upbringing. You can't just pretend the problems don't exist, putting gangbangers in Harvard won't improve the situation one bit.

The only real fix is to address the problems very early on.

I agree that to a large degree, we do reflect our genetics and our upbringing. Aren't the expectations of society part of our upbringing?

As far as I can tell, no one is advocating putting 'gang bangers' into Harvard. Only someone with particularly racist leanings would characterize black and brown students with excellent grades and test scores as 'gang bangers.'

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Sure it does.

However, it's not enough of a factor to keep people down.

And you know this because?

It's simple economics. Depress the wages of a group and they become a more desirable hire. Nobody is explaining why this state persists.

Only the market place is a factor? There is no societal prejudice, no discrimination that exists within the structure of society? Children's aspirations are not influenced by their parents' achievements? By expectations, explicit and otherwise, of their parents and family, teachers, school mates, and so on?

It doesn't matter if there is, the labor market would snap up undervalued employees. While individual discrimination can exist it can't be enough to depress wages.

To a very large degree we reflect our genetics & upbringing. You can't just pretend the problems don't exist, putting gangbangers in Harvard won't improve the situation one bit.

The only real fix is to address the problems very early on.

I agree that to a large degree, we do reflect our genetics and our upbringing. Aren't the expectations of society part of our upbringing?

As far as I can tell, no one is advocating putting 'gang bangers' into Harvard. Only someone with particularly racist leanings would characterize black and brown students with excellent grades and test scores as 'gang bangers.'

And black and brown students with excellent grades (assuming that's not just a reflection on the school they are going to) do fine in America now.

 

[Toni]

And you know this because?

It's simple economics. Depress the wages of a group and they become a more desirable hire.

Yes, I understand how and why slavery was instituted. I understand why slavery is still an 'economic alternative' for some industries which hide their 'economic model' in hidden sweatshops, often but not always overseas. Throw in lax or non-existent labor and environmental laws and you've got yourself a real bargain there.

Nobody is explaining why this state persists.

Racism. That explains a big portion of it. Immorality. Greed. Lack of imagination, compassion, humanity. That's about 95% of it explained.

Only the market place is a factor? There is no societal prejudice, no discrimination that exists within the structure of society? Children's aspirations are not influenced by their parents' achievements? By expectations, explicit and otherwise, of their parents and family, teachers, school mates, and so on?

It doesn't matter if there is, the labor market would snap up undervalued employees. While individual discrimination can exist it can't be enough to depress wages

.

OF COURSE IT CAN DEPRESS WAGES. And does. The only reason it doesn't matter to you is that you are a white man.

And black and brown students with excellent grades (assuming that's not just a reflection on the school they are going to) do fine in America now.

Sure. No need to let them into Harvard. As if that were protection enough if you are a black man. Just ask Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates.

If I remember correctly, you didn't think he was subservient enough in HIS OWN HOME.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

if discrimination was enough to suppress black wages then some smart businessman would hire a bunch of cheap black workers.

Which is pretty much standard procedure in the fast food industry, provided of course that cheaper Mexican labor is not available.

To a very large degree we reflect our genetics & upbringing. You can't just pretend the problems don't exist, putting gangbangers in Harvard won't improve the situation one bit.

So black people are gang bangers. Got it, thanks.

The only real fix is to address the problems very early on.

Sure. And if you don't get to them by the time they're three and a half, fuck em. Just another future gang banger fit for little else but target practice.

And you know this because?

It's simple economics. Depress the wages of a group and they become a more desirable hire.

Which, again, is standard practice in the fast food industry. It's the reason why the term "flipping burgers" has entered English vernacular as a dead-end, low-paying job they give to poor black people who have few other job prospects in the labor market and are earning close to minimum wage.

And black and brown students with excellent grades (assuming that's not just a reflection on the school they are going to) do fine in America now.

As do white and Asian students with mediocre grades.

Of course, black students with so-so grades have very few job prospects for a variety of reasons. I'm not even claiming that racism alone is the largest factor of that, or really even second largest, but I can just about guarantee you it's a larger factor than "being gang bangers."

 

[arkirk]

And you know this because?

It's simple economics. Depress the wages of a group and they become a more desirable hire. Nobody is explaining why this state persists.

Only the market place is a factor? There is no societal prejudice, no discrimination that exists within the structure of society? Children's aspirations are not influenced by their parents' achievements? By expectations, explicit and otherwise, of their parents and family, teachers, school mates, and so on?

It doesn't matter if there is, the labor market would snap up undervalued employees. While individual discrimination can exist it can't be enough to depress wages.

To a very large degree we reflect our genetics & upbringing. You can't just pretend the problems don't exist, putting gangbangers in Harvard won't improve the situation one bit.

The only real fix is to address the problems very early on.

I agree that to a large degree, we do reflect our genetics and our upbringing. Aren't the expectations of society part of our upbringing?

As far as I can tell, no one is advocating putting 'gang bangers' into Harvard. Only someone with particularly racist leanings would characterize black and brown students with excellent grades and test scores as 'gang bangers.'

And black and brown students with excellent grades (assuming that's not just a reflection on the school they are going to) do fine in America now.

Loren's complaint: He doesn't have anything against upper class blacks who may live in his neighborhood....but all others....he has these unyielding racist views that leave no room for a change in their status... Either you are a good black who lives next door to Loren or you are a gang banger. There is something so provincial or perhaps colonial in his thinking that does not allow a poor deprived black person any chance to get on his feet. His answers remind me of Marie Antoinette....let them eat cake...or perhaps just pound sand.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's simple economics. Depress the wages of a group and they become a more desirable hire.

Yes, I understand how and why slavery was instituted. I understand why slavery is still an 'economic alternative' for some industries which hide their 'economic model' in hidden sweatshops, often but not always overseas. Throw in lax or non-existent labor and environmental laws and you've got yourself a real bargain there.

Nobody is explaining why this state persists.

Racism. That explains a big portion of it. Immorality. Greed. Lack of imagination, compassion, humanity. That's about 95% of it explained.

Only the market place is a factor? There is no societal prejudice, no discrimination that exists within the structure of society? Children's aspirations are not influenced by their parents' achievements? By expectations, explicit and otherwise, of their parents and family, teachers, school mates, and so on?

It doesn't matter if there is, the labor market would snap up undervalued employees. While individual discrimination can exist it can't be enough to depress wages

.

OF COURSE IT CAN DEPRESS WAGES. And does. The only reason it doesn't matter to you is that you are a white man.

You continue to ignore the elephant of the fact that depressed wages would make blacks a superior hire and thus companies would be seeking them out.

So long as there aren't repercussions to the company from hiring the minority it requires near 100% discrimination to have any appreciable effect on wages.

And black and brown students with excellent grades (assuming that's not just a reflection on the school they are going to) do fine in America now.

Sure. No need to let them into Harvard. As if that were protection enough if you are a black man. Just ask Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates.

If I remember correctly, you didn't think he was subservient enough in HIS OWN HOME.

When you're doing something suspicious and are challenged by a cop you should explain yourself, not take a do-you-know-who-I-am attitude. Or should the cop ignore an actual burglary in progress next time?

 

[ksen]

Loren's right. Blacks had it much better when their wages were around $0/hr and their employment rate was up around 100%.

 

[scombrid]

When you're doing something suspicious and are challenged by a cop you should explain yourself,

Not where I grew up.

Where I grew up such back talk might get you a beating. Where I grew up you cast your eyes down and say yessir nossir and nothing more. Maybe produce a name if demanded.

 

[Toni]

Yes, I understand how and why slavery was instituted. I understand why slavery is still an 'economic alternative' for some industries which hide their 'economic model' in hidden sweatshops, often but not always overseas. Throw in lax or non-existent labor and environmental laws and you've got yourself a real bargain there.

Nobody is explaining why this state persists.

Racism. That explains a big portion of it. Immorality. Greed. Lack of imagination, compassion, humanity. That's about 95% of it explained.

Only the market place is a factor? There is no societal prejudice, no discrimination that exists within the structure of society? Children's aspirations are not influenced by their parents' achievements? By expectations, explicit and otherwise, of their parents and family, teachers, school mates, and so on?

It doesn't matter if there is, the labor market would snap up undervalued employees. While individual discrimination can exist it can't be enough to depress wages

.

OF COURSE IT CAN DEPRESS WAGES. And does. The only reason it doesn't matter to you is that you are a white man.

You continue to ignore the elephant of the fact that depressed wages would make blacks a superior hire and thus companies would be seeking them out.

Then maybe you can explain depressed/stagnating wages AND a high unemployment rate among blacks?

So long as there aren't repercussions to the company from hiring the minority it requires near 100% discrimination to have any appreciable effect on wages.

'

I cannot imagine what source you have invented for your 'facts' but if you are admitting 100% discrimination, then I will bow to your better judgment. I would not have thought it that high.

When you're doing something suspicious and are challenged by a cop you should explain yourself, not take a do-you-know-who-I-am attitude. Or should the cop ignore an actual burglary in progress next time?

The 'suspicious' activity was attempting to open a lock that had jammed-on the door to HIS HOME. Gates had called university security to come to see to it when he was confronted by the police officer. Gates was in his own home and had answered the door when the police arrived. Gates identified himself as the resident of the home, and showed ID--both the university issued ID and his driver's license. There was no need of any further explanation from Gates. The police officer was wrong to have cuffed him and arrested him.

 

[RavenSky]

And black and brown students with excellent grades (assuming that's not just a reflection on the school they are going to) do fine in America now.

Sure. No need to let them into Harvard. As if that were protection enough if you are a black man. Just ask Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates.

If I remember correctly, you didn't think he was subservient enough in HIS OWN HOME.

When you're black and doing something suspicious and are challenged by a cop you should explain yourself, not take a do-you-know-who-I-am attitude. Or should the cop ignore an actual burglary in progress next time?

FIFY

Last Friday, a friend of mine was telling me about what happened to her husband. He had locked himself out of the house, so he went to the back yard, jumped the fence and let himself in through the back door. Someone saw him jump the fence, and called the police. TWO police cars AND a police HELICOPTER showed up. I couldn't help but think about Professor Gates as she was telling me the story.

I also couldn't help but think about all of the times I've had to break into my own house because I've locked myself out. Not once has anyone ever called the cops on me.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Then maybe you can explain depressed/stagnating wages AND a high unemployment rate among blacks?

You persist in assuming a disparate result proves discrimination.

One simple thing: What's the percentage of each population with a criminal record? Having a rap sheet lowers wages and raises unemployment.
etter judgment. I would not have thought it that high.

When you're doing something suspicious and are challenged by a cop you should explain yourself, not take a do-you-know-who-I-am attitude. Or should the cop ignore an actual burglary in progress next time?

The 'suspicious' activity was attempting to open a lock that had jammed-on the door to HIS HOME. Gates had called university security to come to see to it when he was confronted by the police officer. Gates was in his own home and had answered the door when the police arrived. Gates identified himself as the resident of the home, and showed ID--both the university issued ID and his driver's license. There was no need of any further explanation from Gates. The police officer was wrong to have cuffed him and arrested him.

And how is the cop supposed to tell the difference between the homeowner trying to force his way in and a burglar doing so?? If I were seen by a cop I would expect to be detained until he confirmed that I actually lived there. Most of us realize the cop is doing his job of investigating the suspicious rather than jump to an assumption of racism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And black and brown students with excellent grades (assuming that's not just a reflection on the school they are going to) do fine in America now.

Sure. No need to let them into Harvard. As if that were protection enough if you are a black man. Just ask Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates.

If I remember correctly, you didn't think he was subservient enough in HIS OWN HOME.

When you're black and doing something suspicious and are challenged by a cop you should explain yourself, not take a do-you-know-who-I-am attitude. Or should the cop ignore an actual burglary in progress next time?

FIFY

Last Friday, a friend of mine was telling me about what happened to her husband. He had locked himself out of the house, so he went to the back yard, jumped the fence and let himself in through the back door. Someone saw him jump the fence, and called the police. TWO police cars AND a police HELICOPTER showed up. I couldn't help but think about Professor Gates as she was telling me the story.

I also couldn't help but think about all of the times I've had to break into my own house because I've locked myself out. Not once has anyone ever called the cops on me.

Whether you get the cops called on you or not would depend on whether you were seen and if the person seeing you recognized you as living there.