Epstein Didn’t Kill Himself

[BH]

Whoever ran this prison was very clumsy in their work. You had a famous accused who possibly engaged in scandalous crimes serving prominent people and you do not have him watched 24/7 after a suicide attempt. If anything you would think it would occur in the officials minds " hey, we need to watch this guy and make sure he doesnt off himself or there will be all kinds of conspiracies formed with investigators looking into our lives with a fine tooth comb forever and writing books".

 

[Politesse]

Whoever ran this prison was very clumsy in their work. You had a famous accused who possibly engaged in scandalous crimes serving prominent people and you do not have him watched 24/7 after a suicide attempt. If anything you would think it would occur in the officials minds " hey, we need to watch this guy and make sure he doesnt off himself or there will be all kinds of conspiracies formed with investigators looking into our lives with a fine tooth comb forever and writing books".

A nest of conspiracy theories is better than a living witness. No one takes conspiracy theories seriously, just look at this thread.

 

[Gun Nut]

Do you have evidence of this?

Uh, did you at least attempt a search? Takes, like, literally seconds.

Before the Lolita Express had its nickname, Epstein drew the attention of the media by hosting former president Bill Clinton, along with actors Kevin Spacey and Chris Tucker, on a 2002 tour of Africa with stops in South Africa, Nigeria, Ghana, Rwanda and Mozambique associated with work for the Clinton Foundation.

I'm guessing you're counting that one tour, with many stops and hops, as the "26 times".

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Do you have evidence of this?

Uh, did you at least attempt a search? Takes, like, literally seconds.

Before the Lolita Express had its nickname, Epstein drew the attention of the media by hosting former president Bill Clinton, along with actors Kevin Spacey and Chris Tucker, on a 2002 tour of Africa with stops in South Africa, Nigeria, Ghana, Rwanda and Mozambique associated with work for the Clinton Foundation.

I'm guessing you're counting that one tour, with many stops and hops, as the "26 times".

That's exactly the thing I am trying to get to the bottom of. I am seeing reports that Clinton said he went on 4, but was mistaken and instead of was 6. None of this is sourced well either. Manifests are not public knowledge except really old ones for genealogical purposes. There are claims someone looked at a manifest, but that is one step away from someone interviewing Obama's grandmother in Kenya. In any case, the alleged 6 trips equated to multiple stops, adding up to 20-something mini-flights between original source and final destination. Calling this "26 times" is misleading and so we should look at the source, exactly what it says and then try to track down exactly what happened.

I should probably add that Stephen Hawking also flew on the Lolita Express.

 

[PyramidHead]

Pizzagate was a false flag movement intended to make people think only lunatics believed in massive pedophile rings among the wealthy elite, change my mind

 

[Playball40]

I don't believe he killed himself either. I make no claims as to who is behind it.

This is kind of where I am. He didn't seem to fit the mold. Fear of being attacked in prison doesn't really seem like a real reason to commit suicide especially given this guy was a self-entitled narcissist. He didn't seem to have remorse for what he did so I'm not seeing it there either (depression due to guilt). I suppose I'll never know, but I still lean on the side of a murder.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Fear of being attacked in prison doesn't really seem like a real reason to commit suicide

He wouldn't simply have been "attacked" in prison. He very likely would have been repeatedly raped and then murdered in prison. Sex traffickers--particularly those that may "dable" in underaged victims--are generally not just fearing being "attacked;" they're fearing being gang raped and then beaten to death.

I suppose I'll never know, but I still lean on the side of a murder.

Then you should look to who has the most to lose. Like, say, a sitting President already facing impeachment, with a direct, public track record of sexual predation and "specialist" prostitution (like paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to fuck pornstars) and comments like:

Epstein likes to tell people that he’s a loner, a man who’s never touched alcohol or drugs, and one whose nightlife is far from energetic. And yet if you talk to Donald Trump, a different Epstein emerges. “I’ve known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy,” Trump booms from a speakerphone. “He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it — Jeffrey enjoys his social life.”

That piece was from 2002, so that means that, today Trump would have known Epstein for 32 years. How do you know someone for thirty two years--and note his proclivity for beautiful women "on the younger side"--and yet not know what he actually does? Bill Clinton just took a safari trip with him and Kevin Spacey and Chris Tucker seventeen years ago.

 

[ZiprHead]

Jeffrey Epstein Suicide: Two Jail Workers Charged

The indictment charged the workers with making false records and conspiring to defraud the United States.

 

[TSwizzle]

Without evidence to the contrary it's hard to say that he didn't kill himself. But either way, murder or suicide, I think quite a number of people are relieved at his passing.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Jeffrey Epstein Suicide: Two Jail Workers Charged

The indictment charged the workers with making false records and conspiring to defraud the United States.

That piece also noted:

The indictment for the first time laid out a detailed, official account of what happened inside the jail the night that Mr. Epstein died inside a high-security protective housing unit. It said that video evidence showed no one entered the wing where Mr. Epstein was being held between 10:30 p.m. and 6:30 a.m. when he was found.

Prosecutors accused Ms. Noel, 31, and Mr. Thomas, 41, of failing to make their required rounds to check on detainees. Instead, according to the indictment, the two “sat at their desk, browsed the internet and moved around the common area.”

They then signed “count sheets” saying they had checked on inmates several times overnight when they had not. The workers only discovered Mr. Epstein had hanged himself in his cell — 15 feet from their desk — when they went to give him breakfast at 6:30 a.m., the indictment said.

So, they're basically being accused of not giving a fuck about any of the inmates on their "check on" list, not just Epstein (unless he was the only inmate in the wing). And the video evidence seems to corroborate the fact that he wasn't murdered, unless someone did it before 10:30 pm.

ETA: It goes on to note:

The indictment backed up the medical examiner’s finding and appeared to rebut a conspiracy theory suggesting Mr. Epstein did not kill himself. It said that only corrections officers on duty would have had access to the unit where Mr. Epstein was being held and that security camera video suggested only two other officers entered the unit during that time.
...
The indictment filed by prosecutors painted a picture of two workers with years of experience who failed to perform a basic and essential duty of their jobs: making sure inmates were alive and accounted for.

Ms. Noel and Mr. Thomas came under scrutiny shortly after Mr. Epstein’s death, because they were responsible for monitoring the high-security protective housing unit where Mr. Epstein, who had only recently been removed from a suicide watch, was being held.

So, he evidently had already been on suicide watch for some time prior. And the guards were only supposed to check on all inmates (not just Epstein) at 3:00 am and then again at 5:00 am:

“We did not complete the 3 a.m. nor 5 a.m. rounds,” Ms. Noel said, according to the indictment.

And then there's this:

Mr. Epstein had pleaded not guilty and was set to go on trial next year. If he had been convicted, he could have faced up to 45 years in prison.

Three weeks before his death, Mr. Epstein was found injured in his cell in what was then investigated as a possible suicide attempt. By the time of his death, Mr. Epstein had been taken off suicide watch but was supposed to have another inmate in his cell. The prison allowed him to be housed alone the day he died, Mr. Rojas said.

That linked to this piece, which noted:

A week after being denied bail, Jeffrey E. Epstein was found unconscious in his cell on Tuesday at a federal jail in Manhattan with marks on his neck, and prison officials were investigating the incident as a possible suicide attempt, a law enforcement official who had been briefed on the matter said.

Prison officials had not ruled out the possibility, however, that Mr. Epstein had been assaulted by another inmate or had staged the incident, a person with knowledge of the investigation said.

Mr. Epstein’s injuries were not serious, the law enforcement official said. A second law enforcement official confirmed that Mr. Epstein had been discovered in his cell with “bruising around the neck.” All three people spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not permitted to publicly discuss the investigation.
...
The former financier has been housed in a cell with Nicholas Tartaglione, a former police officer facing murder charges, one of the law enforcement officials said. Both men are in a special unit with strict security measures that is used to separate some inmates from the general population.

Mr. Tartaglione is awaiting trial on charges that he conspired to sell cocaine and took part in the murders of four men in 2016 in Chester, N.Y., a small town about 60 miles north of Manhattan in the Hudson Valley.

On Wednesday night, WNBC-TV reported that Mr. Epstein had been discovered in a fetal position in his cell with neck injuries. The station also said Mr. Tartaglione had been questioned about the incident.

So, it may have been that, having been choked into unconsciousness by a murderer/ex cop (who may have done other worse things prior), put the fear of what the next 45 years was going to be like into him, so, once he found himself alone in a cell, buh bye.

Regardless, good riddance.

 

[Politesse]

Meme goes viral.

One week later, two people are charged in Epstein's death.

 

[zorq]

Meme goes viral.

One week later, two people are charged in Epstein's death.

They weren't charged with killing Epstein. They were charged with falsifying records and conspiracy to falsify those records. Their crime was to try to cover up their lazy negligence. Not homicide.

 

[Politesse]

Meme goes viral.

One week later, two people are charged in Epstein's death.

They weren't charged with killing Epstein. They were charged with falsifying records and conspiracy to falsify those records. Their crime was to try to cover up their lazy negligence. Not homicide.

Nor did I accuse them of homicide.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Meme goes viral.

One week later, two people are charged in Epstein's death.

They weren't charged with killing Epstein. They were charged with falsifying records and conspiracy to falsify those records. Their crime was to try to cover up their lazy negligence. Not homicide.

And was it really negligence, or was it a case of pretending to do the impossible they were expected to do?

 

[zorq]

Meme goes viral.

One week later, two people are charged in Epstein's death.

They weren't charged with killing Epstein. They were charged with falsifying records and conspiracy to falsify those records. Their crime was to try to cover up their lazy negligence. Not homicide.

And was it really negligence, or was it a case of pretending to do the impossible they were expected to do?

They couldn't have made the complete rounds every 30 minutes the way the jail standards were written. There wasn't sufficient staff. But they also didn't make the 3 AM or 5 AM rounds the way their supervisor expected them to do.

 

[Terrell]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the media "forgets" about this story after the case against the guards is resolved. I don't think they want to dig deeper, and I don't know what they'd find if they did.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the media "forgets" about this story after the case against the guards is resolved. I don't think they want to dig deeper, and I don't know what they'd find if they did.

Evidently a video recording that showed no one entered Epstein's cell at any time during the night. And considering the fact that the guards must know they are under video surveillance--and yet, still didn't give enough of a shit to go do their rounds--it strains credulity that they deliberately were just sitting around (fifteen feet from Epstein's cell no less) on purpose the way it would have to have been had they been in on any alleged murder.

What kind of excuse could they give? We saw an inmate go in and heard Epstein scream out for help--because, you know, he was being murdered fifteen feet from us--but I was on level twenty of angry birds at the time and she was shopping online for shoes.

It also would mean that Epstein's hypothetical murderer would have had to have been somehow secreted into Epstein's cell by the guards (without alerting Epstein) some time before 10:30 pm--murdered Epstein--and then secreted out again (i.e., without it being noticeable on the video surveillance, which, of course, is designed to notice such shit) at 6:30 am when the guards finally did their rounds.

And the instructions to the murderer would be what? Make it look like he committed suicide. Why? If in fact one of Epstein's "clients" payed off an inmate to kill him, why the fuck would the "client" (or the killer) care to make it look like a suicide? What difference would it make to either? It also would have been far easier to kill Epstein when he was in general population, instead of locked in his cell for the night. A cell, that, again, is only fifteen feet from the on-duty guards and under video surveillance.

So, again, that would have meant that whoever hypothetically would have had him murdered would have (a) needed to pay an inmate to do it; (b) instructed the inmate to make it look like a suicide for some unknown reason; (c) paid off the guards to do all kinds of nothing on video for no reason; and (d) arranged for at least one of the guards to somehow sneak the killer into Epstein's cell before 10:30 pm when the video evidently starts and then again out at 6:30 the next morning for some unknown reason.

Presumably, if the guards had the capacity to sneak a killer in and then out again undetected by the video surveillance, then they would have done the whole deed and snuck out the killer within a matter of minutes, not eight hours later.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

My understanding is that despite the US incarcerating lots and lots of people, prisons are terribly understaffed... I mean how else you make money running a jail, right? It is not beyond the possibility that these guards didn't fucking care about Epstein... may not even really known who he was. Epstein was going to prison. Rich people don't like prison.

 

[Terrell]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the media "forgets" about this story after the case against the guards is resolved. I don't think they want to dig deeper, and I don't know what they'd find if they did.

Evidently a video recording that showed no one entered Epstein's cell at any time during the night. And considering the fact that the guards must know they are under video surveillance--and yet, still didn't give enough of a shit to go do their rounds--it strains credulity that they deliberately were just sitting around (fifteen feet from Epstein's cell no less) on purpose the way it would have to have been had they been in on any alleged murder.

What kind of excuse could they give? We saw an inmate go in and heard Epstein scream out for help--because, you know, he was being murdered fifteen feet from us--but I was on level twenty of angry birds at the time and she was shopping online for shoes.

It also would mean that Epstein's hypothetical murderer would have had to have been somehow secreted into Epstein's cell by the guards (without alerting Epstein) some time before 10:30 pm--murdered Epstein--and then secreted out again (i.e., without it being noticeable on the video surveillance, which, of course, is designed to notice such shit) at 6:30 am when the guards finally did their rounds.

And the instructions to the murderer would be what? Make it look like he committed suicide. Why? If in fact one of Epstein's "clients" payed off an inmate to kill him, why the fuck would the "client" (or the killer) care to make it look like a suicide? What difference would it make to either? It also would have been far easier to kill Epstein when he was in general population, instead of locked in his cell for the night. A cell, that, again, is only fifteen feet from the on-duty guards and under video surveillance.

So, again, that would have meant that whoever hypothetically would have had him murdered would have (a) needed to pay an inmate to do it; (b) instructed the inmate to make it look like a suicide for some unknown reason; (c) paid off the guards to do all kinds of nothing on video for no reason; and (d) arranged for at least one of the guards to somehow sneak the killer into Epstein's cell before 10:30 pm when the video evidently starts and then again out at 6:30 the next morning for some unknown reason.

Presumably, if the guards had the capacity to sneak a killer in and then out again undetected by the video surveillance, then they would have done the whole deed and snuck out the killer within a matter of minutes, not eight hours later.

This has what exactly to do with the media's interest in covering this story? That is what I was talking about.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the media "forgets" about this story after the case against the guards is resolved. I don't think they want to dig deeper, and I don't know what they'd find if they did.

Evidently a video recording that showed no one entered Epstein's cell at any time during the night. And considering the fact that the guards must know they are under video surveillance--and yet, still didn't give enough of a shit to go do their rounds--it strains credulity that they deliberately were just sitting around (fifteen feet from Epstein's cell no less) on purpose the way it would have to have been had they been in on any alleged murder.

What kind of excuse could they give? We saw an inmate go in and heard Epstein scream out for help--because, you know, he was being murdered fifteen feet from us--but I was on level twenty of angry birds at the time and she was shopping online for shoes.

It also would mean that Epstein's hypothetical murderer would have had to have been somehow secreted into Epstein's cell by the guards (without alerting Epstein) some time before 10:30 pm--murdered Epstein--and then secreted out again (i.e., without it being noticeable on the video surveillance, which, of course, is designed to notice such shit) at 6:30 am when the guards finally did their rounds.

And the instructions to the murderer would be what? Make it look like he committed suicide. Why? If in fact one of Epstein's "clients" payed off an inmate to kill him, why the fuck would the "client" (or the killer) care to make it look like a suicide? What difference would it make to either? It also would have been far easier to kill Epstein when he was in general population, instead of locked in his cell for the night. A cell, that, again, is only fifteen feet from the on-duty guards and under video surveillance.

So, again, that would have meant that whoever hypothetically would have had him murdered would have (a) needed to pay an inmate to do it; (b) instructed the inmate to make it look like a suicide for some unknown reason; (c) paid off the guards to do all kinds of nothing on video for no reason; and (d) arranged for at least one of the guards to somehow sneak the killer into Epstein's cell before 10:30 pm when the video evidently starts and then again out at 6:30 the next morning for some unknown reason.

Presumably, if the guards had the capacity to sneak a killer in and then out again undetected by the video surveillance, then they would have done the whole deed and snuck out the killer within a matter of minutes, not eight hours later.

This has what exactly to do with the media's interest in covering this story? That is what I was talking about.

Then why did you end it with:

I don't think they want to dig deeper, and I don't know what they'd find if they did.

I laid out what they'd find if they did. Actually, I laid out what they found when they dug deeper. So, on no level does what you were evidently alluding to obtain. They dug, they found, they reported.

So, again, unless you can account for everything I laid out, there is nothing deeper. He killed himself rather than face 45 years of gang rape and/or being beaten to death.