EU Elections Thread

[Canard DuJour]

UKIP is partly a result of the implosion of the British National Party (BNP). They're an anti-EU party rather than a right wing-nationalist party (in theory anyway), and have picked up many of the BNPs old supporters as well as some of their own. The other thing that helps them is that Conservative party (traditionally but not consistently anti-Europe) have been in coalition with the Liberal Democrats (the most pro-Europe major party), something which has annoyed both their supporter bases. So because it's 'just' a European election, both conservative and Liberal voters are likely to vote elsewhere, or not turn up, to punish their own part for their misdeeds. This is particularly true of the Conservatives, who are particularly feeling the bite of UKIP into their supporter base.

Yep. Meanwhile there's resentment among traditional Labour voters at the preceived flood of cheap foreign labour, particularly from the new eastern European member states. UKIP has been very good at conflating this with "Brussels bureaucracy" and "benefit (welfare) tourism." Labour has been been very bad at calling UKIP on it, because Labour is too reluctant to say anything that might sound xenophobic or acknowledge class conflict in what's "good for the economy" to address the discontent.

Thus a party for flat tax, franchising out key NHS services, removing employee protections which mostly originate from Brussels - basically the Tory party with bells on - has managed to blag a chunk of the Labour vote too.

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[dystopian]

Looking at that picture, I have to ask; do the people who put outs ads like that really not understand how they're making themselves look? I hate to be the guy to godwin matters; but that ad looks like what would've happened if the third reich's PR department had gotten a hold of adobe indesign.

 

[Canard DuJour]

Looking at that picture, I have to ask; do the people who put outs ads like that really not understand how they're making themselves look? I hate to be the guy to godwin matters; but that ad looks like what would've happened if the third reich's PR department had gotten a hold of adobe indesign.

Yep.

 

[dx713]

On the other hand, I heard on the news today that the Dutch have rejected their extreme-right anti-Europe candidates in the voting.
Good for you.

 

[Hickdive]

View attachment 339​

When I saw that ad up on billboards I thought of this;

 

[dystopian]

On the other hand, I heard on the news today that the Dutch have rejected their extreme-right anti-Europe candidates in the voting.
Good for you.

Sort of. Maybe. Not exactly but yes sort of.

First, the official results won't be announced until sunday, the figures we have right now are exit polls which may or may not resemble the final tally.

Second, we 'rejected' them in the sense that they got around 5% fewer votes than last time around while the pro-eu D66 is looking to have become the biggest. However, voter turn-out was also only like 35%, so it's a bit hard to argue that this result is overly representative.

Thirdly, as much as I despise the PVV, they're not 'quite' extreme right. They're definitely borderline though.

 

[angelo]

Who pays for all these snouts in the through?

 

[Jokodo]

Who pays for all these snouts in the through?

I don't have the exact figures for other countries, but for Austria, it's 183 members of the national parliament and several hundred between them for the the 9 state governments vs. 18 MEP.

If "who pays for all these snouts" is your main concern, you've got a better argument for abolishing regional and state legislatures than the European Parliament.

 

[angelo]

Good job if you can get it.

 

[Jokodo]

Good job if you can get it.

Is there an argument hidden somewhere in there? Are you writing code?

 

[angelo]

Let's just say I'm extremely cynical about politicians and those who propose to become one. Is Europe any better off by having all these people in place? Are the European people flourishing more so than say Americans, Canadians or dare I say it, Australians?

 

[Jokodo]

Let's just say I'm extremely cynical about politicians and those who propose to become one. Is Europe any better off by having all these people in place? Are the European people flourishing more so than say Americans, Canadians or dare I say it, Australians?

You can question the benefits of the European Union, nothing wrong with that as long as you do so on the basis of rational arguments. But "Who pays for all these snouts in the through [sic!]?" isn't a rational argument: The administrative costs of a single of Austria's Bundesländer exceed Austria's contribution to the EU's administrative budget. And however miniscule the benefits of the EU are, they are almost certain to exceed the benefits of having nine different building codes and nine different laws for the protection of minors in public in a country of eight million inhabitants.

 

[Jokodo]

In other words, administrative costs are never going to work as an argument against centralisation - because whatever other valid arguments there may be for decentralisation, all else being equal, a more centralised government is going to be cheaper.

 

[angelo]

Can the European Union overrule the government of say, Germany or France? If it's purely economic I can see some merit in trading as a bloc.

 

[crispy]

In other words, administrative costs are never going to work as an argument against centralisation - because whatever other valid arguments there may be for decentralisation, all else being equal, a more centralised government is going to be cheaper.

Still, im pissed enough to not care about that as long as the people employed by the EU have these exuberant pays in Bruxelles or Luxembourgh etc...

 

[dx713]

Can the European Union overrule the government of say, Germany or France? If it's purely economic I can see some merit in trading as a bloc.

Not unless it's some Human Right issue or to enforce competition on some field that was still considered public service by the state. That's a part of the problem with Europe, the last treaties have been based on a libertarian free market view of Europe. And as new countries have been added since and any change requires unanimity...

On the other hand, I heard on the news today that the Dutch have rejected their extreme-right anti-Europe candidates in the voting.
Good for you.

Sort of. Maybe. Not exactly but yes sort of.

First, the official results won't be announced until sunday, the figures we have right now are exit polls which may or may not resemble the final tally.

Second, we 'rejected' them in the sense that they got around 5% fewer votes than last time around while the pro-eu D66 is looking to have become the biggest. However, voter turn-out was also only like 35%, so it's a bit hard to argue that this result is overly representative.

Thirdly, as much as I despise the PVV, they're not 'quite' extreme right. They're definitely borderline though.

So much for me wanting to console myself from the French leading Front National vote...

 

[angelo]

Sourced from the Guardian.

The far right anti-EU National Front was forecast to win a European parliament election in France, topping a nationwide ballot for the first time in a stunning advance for opponents of European integration.

Critics of the European Union, riding a wave of anger over austerity and mass unemployment, gained ground elsewhere but in Germany, the EU's biggest member state, the pro-European centre ground held firm, according to exit polls.

In France, Marine Le Pen's nationalist movement which blames Brussels for everything from immigration to job losses, was set to take about 25 percent of the vote, comfortably ahead of the conservative opposition UMP on about 21 percent.

 

[dystopian]

All of the newspapers and media that are talking about how much of a win this has been for euroskeptics seem to neglect mentioning that 70% of the Europarliament is still made up of pro-europe parties and that the euroskeptic parties are failing to form meaningful alliances. (The alliance (or European Political Party) that Geert Wilders wants to form with Le Pen and others for instance is now impossible because to do so requires that its constituent national parties achieved at least 3% of the vote in their respective nations in at least a quarter of the total member states. With the failure of the Slovakian SNS to get a seat, that is no longer possible.

 

[Derec]

Looking at that picture, I have to ask; do the people who put outs ads like that really not understand how they're making themselves look? I hate to be the guy to godwin matters; but that ad looks like what would've happened if the third reich's PR department had gotten a hold of adobe indesign.

I have to say that this tendency to godwinize any criticism of multiculturalism or unrestricted immigration that makes mainstream parties reluctant to adequately deal with it and gives a boost to radical right-wing parties. Take Geert Wilders - his main concern is the influx of a large number of unassimilated Islamic immigrants into Netherlands and Europe (and their high birth rate) which threaten the socially liberal values of Western Europe in general and Netherlands in particular (Ayan Hirsi Ali's Infidel has a section that describes the situation quite well). But because of his critical stance to current immigration practices he got marginalized together with actual radical right-wingers like Le Pen.

 

[Derec]

What kind of powers does the EU parliament actually have? My understanding is that they have diddley-squat for power. Most of the power rests in the European Commission which is appointed. So why should anyone waste their time to vote for members of a debating society?

Their powers have increased over the decades but they share legislative function with the Council of the European Union (composed of ministers of the constituent countries) and the Commission which you have mentioned. That is I think the primary reason the turnout has been so low.