Europe submits voluntarily

[untermensche]

Who are their counterparts?

Their counterparts are the Jews living in Israel.

Their counterparts in Arab majority countries. Remove your Arab blinkers and you may see the true picture!

Their counterparts can only be people living in the same nation.

This is just a way to try to point away from the second class citizenship of Muslims in Israel.

A phony democracy.

 

[DrZoidberg]

A problem with Saudi Arabia is that the Saudi king is a direct descendent of Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, who got to name the movement after him. The Ottoman caliph spent plenty of energy crushing the movement and whipping them in line with main stream Islam. They let him and his movement be as long as they kept themselves to the Arab peninsula, where they "couldn't do any damage". It was just extreme bad luck that that family got to power as well as them finding oil and then oil turning out to be extremely valuable.

But back in the day when Wahhab was alive, even then main-stream Muslims thought the guy was nuts. An extremist best ignored. Which is what they did.

Wahhabism is very much alive in Saudi Arabia which of course doesn't not apply to the many Royal princes.

Did you even read what I wrote? In my post I explain why it is alive. I'm not denying it

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Muslims in Israel prefer to be part of Israel than to be part of Palestine.

No shit!

The Palestinians have been tortured by Israel for decades.

Saying they don't want to be tortured is not saying much.

Israel is still a phony democracy. It began by throwing out 700,000 Muslims and has maintained a Jewish majority by force ever since.

1) You have alleged that Israel mistreats Muslims living in Israel--apparently the people don't think so.

2) That 700k number is suspect. 300k is probably more like it--and that's mostly people who left voluntarily and then weren't allowed back in.

3) It's an awful lot closer to a democracy than it's neighbors.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Their counterparts in Arab majority countries. Remove your Arab blinkers and you may see the true picture!

Their counterparts can only be people living in the same nation.

This is just a way to try to point away from the second class citizenship of Muslims in Israel.

A phony democracy.

You don't get to redefine terms.

 

[untermensche]

Their counterparts can only be people living in the same nation.

This is just a way to try to point away from the second class citizenship of Muslims in Israel.

A phony democracy.

You don't get to redefine terms.

Maintaining a majority through force and brutality is not democracy.

 

[Jayjay]

You don't get to redefine terms.

Maintaining a majority through force and brutality is not democracy.

If that's your criteria, then there are no democratic countries in the world because every country has some sort of immigrant controls that are maintained by force.

A case could be made that Jews in Israel gained their majority originally by force, but maintaining it doesn't require anything more than policing the borders like everyone else.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Maintaining a majority through force and brutality is not democracy.

If that's your criteria, then there are no democratic countries in the world because every country has some sort of immigrant controls that are maintained by force.

A case could be made that Jews in Israel gained their majority originally by force, but maintaining it doesn't require anything more than policing the borders like everyone else.

Europe failed to enforce its border policies, so now may have to use force in some cases to drive back undocumented economic migrants. Perhaps it may never do that. Israel does enforce some border controls but now has several migrants from the African sub continent.

Here is a sample
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/06/israel-african-migrants-deported

QUOTE: Robel Tesfahannes spends his days looking for work in Juba. An Eritrean who recently arrived in South Sudan after six years in Tel Aviv, Tesfahannes is one of a new wave of refugees forced out of Israel by the country’s increasingly tough stance towards migrants.

He is covered in tattoos, including a message on his right arm to Israelis: “I hate them but I can’t live without them.” Tesfahannes says that with “no money I have no aims. But you have to keep moving, always. I live risk to risk.”

Tesfahannes left Eritrea in 2008, fleeing mandatory military service in a regime that tolerates no dissent, and travelled through Ethiopia, Sudan and Egypt before arriving in Israel. He says he was briefly imprisoned before being released into the community.


“The Israeli government said bad things about us Africans,” he says, “and I felt Israelis looked at us suspiciously.” He alleges that he was routinely harassed by Israeli police and eventually decided that he had to leave.

The country recently announced a deal with Rwanda to deport Eritrean and Sudanese migrants there, claiming they would be given visas and allowed to work. In return, Rwanda would receive economic benefits.

But Tesfahannes says the promise of work and security never materialised.

Instead his journey from Israel to the world’s newest nation was a tortuous one. Given $3,500 (£2,200) in cash on departure by Israeli officials, he was flown to Rwanda earlier this year with 10 other Eritreans.

Tesfahannes says he was given three nights’ accommodation in Kigali before being told by a Rwandan official that he had to pay $150 (£98) to secure safe passage to Uganda. No work opportunities were ever discussed, he said.

With no identification, passport or money, the 25-year-old is in limbo, dreaming of making the journey north to Europe. UNQUOTE

He is simply avoiding National Service (some may say draft dodger) and an economic migrant. Israel has been deporting illegals, but less harshly than its neighbours. Now he will possibly join the masses entering borderless Europe. Occasionally there are genuine asylum seekers but these are few and far between.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Wahhabism is very much alive in Saudi Arabia which of course doesn't not apply to the many Royal princes.

Did you even read what I wrote? In my post I explain why it is alive. I'm not denying it

I agree to your points but added something.

 

[angelo]

Their counterparts in Arab majority countries. Remove your Arab blinkers and you may see the true picture!

Their counterparts can only be people living in the same nation.

This is just a way to try to point away from the second class citizenship of Muslims in Israel.

A phony democracy.

This is balony and I suspect you're not that stupid that you actually believe it are you? You are aware that there are Arabs in the Knesset?

 

[whichphilosophy]

You don't get to redefine terms.

Maintaining a majority through force and brutality is not democracy.

Arab political parties are legal and have representation in the Knesset. Some parties are a mixture of Arab and Jewish members.

It seems at least according to WIKI that most Israeli Arabs prefer to be Citizens of Israel but a large amount do not feel any particular patriotism
There are social issues wherein some Israeli Arabs feel they are discriminated against
I did not quote anything from the other media do to a lack of time today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Education

 

[untermensche]

Their counterparts can only be people living in the same nation.

This is just a way to try to point away from the second class citizenship of Muslims in Israel.

A phony democracy.

This is balony and I suspect you're not that stupid that you actually believe it are you? You are aware that there are Arabs in the Knesset?

Window dressing for a phony democracy that abuses millions of Palestinians on a continual basis.

 

[DrZoidberg]

There should be a variant of Godwin's law. Some sort of law of transformation. Any thread on politics, if it continues long enough, will eventually transform into a discussion about the Israel/Palestine conflict.

 

[untermensche]

There should be a variant of Godwin's law. Some sort of law of transformation. Any thread on politics, if it continues long enough, will eventually transform into a discussion about the Israel/Palestine conflict.

It's a huge gaping wound and a cause of a lot of trouble.

And since it is happening with US support it is a US issue.

 

[whichphilosophy]

This is balony and I suspect you're not that stupid that you actually believe it are you? You are aware that there are Arabs in the Knesset?

Window dressing for a phony democracy that abuses millions of Palestinians on a continual basis.

The Palestinians and other Arabs (Christian and Druze etc) in Israel comprise about 21 per cent of the population. They are citizens with healthcare and education. Some parties contain Jews and Arabs. The deputy speaker of the Knesset Ahad Dibi is an Arab MP (head of the Ta'al Party) He is a former advisor to Yassar Arafat and is a trained Gynagologist.

There are many issues such as a ban on Jews and Muslims getting married and issues on education spending where less per head is reported to be spent for Arab schools.

Surveys conducted by mainly Israeli colleges indicate most Israeli Arab citizens with to remain with Israel. Other studies would be useful.

Some more details here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Property_ownership_and_housing

See under Surveys and Polls for a wide range of issues.

 

[untermensche]

Window dressing for a phony democracy that abuses millions of Palestinians on a continual basis.

The Palestinians and other Arabs (Christian and Druze etc) in Israel comprise about 21 per cent of the population. They are citizens with healthcare and education. Some parties contain Jews and Arabs. The deputy speaker of the Knesset Ahad Dibi is an Arab MP (head of the Ta'al Party) He is a former advisor to Yassar Arafat and is a trained Gynagologist.

There are many issues such as a ban on Jews and Muslims getting married and issues on education spending where less per head is reported to be spent for Arab schools.

Surveys conducted by mainly Israeli colleges indicate most Israeli Arab citizens with to remain with Israel. Other studies would be useful.

Some more details here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Property_ownership_and_housing

See under Surveys and Polls for a wide range of issues.

Yes, as I said, window dressing with no real control of national policy.

Which is not to say that those with real power in Israel don't help them out now and then.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The Palestinians and other Arabs (Christian and Druze etc) in Israel comprise about 21 per cent of the population. They are citizens with healthcare and education. Some parties contain Jews and Arabs. The deputy speaker of the Knesset Ahad Dibi is an Arab MP (head of the Ta'al Party) He is a former advisor to Yassar Arafat and is a trained Gynagologist.

There are many issues such as a ban on Jews and Muslims getting married and issues on education spending where less per head is reported to be spent for Arab schools.

Surveys conducted by mainly Israeli colleges indicate most Israeli Arab citizens with to remain with Israel. Other studies would be useful.

Some more details here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Property_ownership_and_housing

See under Surveys and Polls for a wide range of issues.

Yes, as I said, window dressing with no real control of national policy.

Which is not to say that those with real power in Israel don't help them out now and then.

I don't think that the average Jewish person is a Zionist though there are some prejudices such as not wishing to be in the same building as an Arab and the absurdity that some have even represented Zionist parties. The Arabs are a minority so even in our own systems minorities are not always as fully catered for as the majority. The idea of a joint state involving Israel and Palestine (as promoted by Arafat's lawyer some years ago) would be practical in a county like the USA or most European countries but the conflicts and seizure of land by Israeli settlers (sometimes using re created title deeds per Israeli law) makes it difficult. Just to keep things going, some splinter elements (not necessarily Hamas) like to fire a few rockets into Israel now and again to "keep things alive." This however is probably how a Western nation would react if under occupation.

 

[untermensche]

Yes, as I said, window dressing with no real control of national policy.

Which is not to say that those with real power in Israel don't help them out now and then.

I don't think that the average Jewish person is a Zionist though there are some prejudices such as not wishing to be in the same building as an Arab and the absurdity that some have even represented Zionist parties. The Arabs are a minority so even in our own systems minorities are not always as fully catered for as the majority. The idea of a joint state involving Israel and Palestine (as promoted by Arafat's lawyer some years ago) would be practical in a county like the USA or most European countries but the conflicts and seizure of land by Israeli settlers (sometimes using re created title deeds per Israeli law) makes it difficult. Just to keep things going, some splinter elements (not necessarily Hamas) like to fire a few rockets into Israel now and again to "keep things alive." This however is probably how a Western nation would react if under occupation.

The average people in Israel are good decent people and many of them protest the treatment of Palestinians and the expansionism.

But the country is controlled by fundamentalists seeking to regain what god had given their alleged ancestors.

 

[whichphilosophy]

I don't think that the average Jewish person is a Zionist though there are some prejudices such as not wishing to be in the same building as an Arab and the absurdity that some have even represented Zionist parties. The Arabs are a minority so even in our own systems minorities are not always as fully catered for as the majority. The idea of a joint state involving Israel and Palestine (as promoted by Arafat's lawyer some years ago) would be practical in a county like the USA or most European countries but the conflicts and seizure of land by Israeli settlers (sometimes using re created title deeds per Israeli law) makes it difficult. Just to keep things going, some splinter elements (not necessarily Hamas) like to fire a few rockets into Israel now and again to "keep things alive." This however is probably how a Western nation would react if under occupation.

The average people in Israel are good decent people and many of them protest the treatment of Palestinians and the expansionism.

But the country is controlled by fundamentalists seeking to regain what god had given their alleged ancestors.

Even better, where they are taking land God is also their estate agent who allowed the revised title deeds to replace this. Obviously Palestinians in Gaza may have some 'slight' differences in viewpoint to those living in Israel.

 

[angelo]

There should be a variant of Godwin's law. Some sort of law of transformation. Any thread on politics, if it continues long enough, will eventually transform into a discussion about the Israel/Palestine conflict.

It's a huge gaping wound and a cause of a lot of trouble.

And since it is happening with US support it is a US issue.

Ans most leftards are of the same opinion, which is just plain anti semetism, or at best hatred of Jews everywhere.
This discussion is getting us nowhere. The only thing that would make those people happy is another holocaust, but this time every single Jew everywhere must be eliminated.
Supporters of the Arab cause are supporters of Islamic terrorism, it's simple as that, no if or buts.

 

[angelo]

The average people in Israel are good decent people and many of them protest the treatment of Palestinians and the expansionism.

But the country is controlled by fundamentalists seeking to regain what god had given their alleged ancestors.

Even better, where they are taking land God is also their estate agent who allowed the revised title deeds to replace this. Obviously Palestinians in Gaza may have some 'slight' differences in viewpoint to those living in Israel.

Their leaders, especially Hamas keeps promising them the destruction of the Jewish state, and then they [ Palestinians] just walk in and take over the land.