Europe submits voluntarily

[DrZoidberg]

That self loathing, hate of Western Democracies including Israel lame excuse for Islamic atrocities doesn't cut it.
Suicide bombers have only one origin, and that's the barbarism of the followers of what all muzzies are taught is Mohammed the most barbaric terrorist of all, as the most perfect man who ever lived, and it is imperitive that all muslims follow in his footsteps according to islam.

There is where the problem lays, not with some perceived wrong doing by any Western nation.

On the contrary, it was Western judeo/Christian based civilisation that brought about modernity and technology to the backward Arab world.

What the US and Britain have been doing in the region for decades is loathsome.

They should be despised for their sick interference and transformation of the region into a fundamentalist haven.

They are the cause of this period of heightened fundamentalism.

The problem is secular leaders want the US and Britain out of the region. This is why despotic dictatorial monarchies exist. This is why brutal leaders like Saddam Hussein were helped to gain power.

The level of fundamentalism we see today in the ME has nothing to do with Islam.

It was carefully planned by sick greedy interfering foreign powers.

Meh... mostly it's the Ottoman empire's fault. Who created a backward and mismanaged region. They successfully used religion to create unity in an ethnically diverse empire. But by doing so they sowed the seeds of Islamic extremism.

The Ottoman empires dismemberment after WWI was done extremely badly. So Britain, France and the ghost of Tzarist Russia has a lot of that blame. They used police state tactics and terror to control the population. They clung increasingly to religion as their symbol of defiance.

And then when the Western powers fucked off, they did that incredibly badly to, creating a power vacuum exploited by unscrupulous dictators.

And now it's now.

This is a soup with many terrible chefs. It shouldn't be a mystery why the region is so fucked up.

 

[untermensche]

What is happening now is a direct result of British and then US support of the Saudi dictatorship and the British/US fiasco in Iran.

The result of this interference by the US and Britain has been a steady rise in fundamentalism in the region.

As I said some of this was done deliberately as a method to destroy the secular pan-Arab movements in the ME. That has been the great fear in the powers that want to control ME oil.

 

[DrZoidberg]

What is happening now is a direct result of British and then US support of the Saudi dictatorship and the British/US fiasco in Iran.

The result of this interference by the US and Britain has been a steady rise in fundamentalism in the region.

As I said some of this was done deliberately as a method to destroy the secular pan-Arab movements in the ME. That has been the great fear in the powers that want to control ME oil.

Nah... it's just the icing on an already fucked cake.

I actually supported the US invasion of Iraq. The West created the environment that allowed Saddam to seize power. It's only fair that we help them get rid of him.

 

[untermensche]

What is happening now is a direct result of British and then US support of the Saudi dictatorship and the British/US fiasco in Iran.

The result of this interference by the US and Britain has been a steady rise in fundamentalism in the region.

As I said some of this was done deliberately as a method to destroy the secular pan-Arab movements in the ME. That has been the great fear in the powers that want to control ME oil.

Nah... it's just the icing on an already fucked cake.

I actually supported the US invasion of Iraq. The West created the environment that allowed Saddam to seize power. It's only fair that we help them get rid of him.

That's like saying your wife had grief after I raped her so I killed her and all your children. Now all is good.

Iran had a secular democracy.

The US and Britain destroyed it.

It has not come back yet.

The Saudi dictatorship exists totally because of British and US support.

These two nations, Saudi Arabia and Iran are hugely responsible for the level of fundamentalism we see throughout the region. It is something being forced upon the region.

Add the result of US terrorism, a powerful ISIS, and the problem is huge.

 

[DrZoidberg]

What is happening now is a direct result of British and then US support of the Saudi dictatorship and the British/US fiasco in Iran.

The result of this interference by the US and Britain has been a steady rise in fundamentalism in the region.

As I said some of this was done deliberately as a method to destroy the secular pan-Arab movements in the ME. That has been the great fear in the powers that want to control ME oil.

Nah... it's just the icing on an already fucked cake.

I actually supported the US invasion of Iraq. The West created the environment that allowed Saddam to seize power. It's only fair that we help them get rid of him.

That's like saying your wife had grief after I raped her so I killed her and all your children. Now all is good.

Is it, really?

Iran had a secular democracy.

The US and Britain destroyed it.

It has not come back yet.

I agree.

The Saudi dictatorship exists totally because of British and US support.

These two nations, Saudi Arabia and Iran are hugely responsible for the level of fundamentalism we see throughout the region. It is something being forced upon the region.

Add the result of US terrorism, a powerful ISIS, and the problem is huge.

Britain created Saudi Arabia. It's their oil that keeps them in power. And helps them spread their ideas. But I'd argue Muslims are only receptive because of the Ottoman empire

ISIS is not powerful any longer. They're completely destroyed as an effective fighting force and is not a functioning organisation.

 

[angelo]

There's been around 30.000 islamic terrorist attacks throughout the world just since 9/11. Very few committed by non muslims. Doesn't that tell you anything about the violence of this barbaric ideology?

Could you name some of the Islamic terrorist attacks carried out by non-Muslims? Sounds like a bizarre statment. Baseless, in fact. Something you made up?

The bizarre thing is that you actually would post such a thing. This time I refuse to Google islamic terrorist attacks since 9/11! You can do so yourself!

 

[angelo]

You're nitpicking over wording.

How many terrorist attacks have been carried out by Muslims recently? And how many by non-Muslims?

Beware of a mistake the US used to make--counting terrorism without counting it's severity. The simplest way to avoid this error is only count incidents in which someone died.

Meh.... Since 9/11 the Middle-East has been highly unstable. Political instability generates terrorism. Just look at any period in history it's the same deal. The question is whether the current terrorism is politically or religiously motivated. I think it's politically (and not religiously ) motivated.

Why do we have more terrorism now than before? Our high tech society is increasingly sensitive to terror attacks. To put it bluntly, terrorism has never paid off as well as it does today.

BTW, in the beginning of the 20'th century the main culprit of terror was atheist anarchists. Using the logic of this thread would mean that atheism leads to terrorism, and we have to root them out and expel them from the west. We didn't, and things turned out just fine.

The difference between an atheist and a follower of perhaps the worst terrorist who ever lived is like water and a volcanic rock!

 

[angelo]

That self loathing, hate of Western Democracies including Israel lame excuse for Islamic atrocities doesn't cut it.
Suicide bombers have only one origin, and that's the barbarism of the followers of what all muzzies are taught is Mohammed the most barbaric terrorist of all, as the most perfect man who ever lived, and it is imperitive that all muslims follow in his footsteps according to islam.

There is where the problem lays, not with some perceived wrong doing by any Western nation.

On the contrary, it was Western judeo/Christian based civilisation that brought about modernity and technology to the backward Arab world.

What? Christianity, (if we read the Bible like you read the Quran) is incompatible with democracy and Western values. Yet, here we are. The Enlightenment is a rejection of Christian values and the basis for western values and civilisation.

You don't even know what side you're on

The babble, the New Testament in particular, has Jesus saying : "render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and render unto God what belongs to God. [ or words to that effect] That sounds like separation of state and religion to me. There's no such thing in the koran or any other islamic teaching!

 

[untermensche]

That's like saying your wife had grief after I raped her so I killed her and all your children. Now all is good.

Is it, really?

Yes. Your "morality" is warped.

You say after we rape the Iraqi people for decades we can make up for it by killing and torturing many Iraqi's.

You have no understanding of basic human morality.

Britain created Saudi Arabia. It's their oil that keeps them in power. And helps them spread their ideas. But I'd argue Muslims are only receptive because of the Ottoman empire

Oil does not keep you in power.

What has kept that dictatorship in power is the support in weaponry and logistics provided by the US and Britain.

The US and Britain are responsible for the massive fundamentalist indoctrination of the area that has come from Saudi Arabia.

ISIS is not powerful any longer.

Do you know how much damage it did?

All of it is the responsibility of the US.

You have no sense of morality.

I do not know how you manage to live.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You're nitpicking over wording.

How many terrorist attacks have been carried out by Muslims recently? And how many by non-Muslims?

Beware of a mistake the US used to make--counting terrorism without counting it's severity. The simplest way to avoid this error is only count incidents in which someone died.

Meh.... Since 9/11 the Middle-East has been highly unstable. Political instability generates terrorism. Just look at any period in history it's the same deal. The question is whether the current terrorism is politically or religiously motivated. I think it's politically (and not religiously ) motivated.

Why do we have more terrorism now than before? Our high tech society is increasingly sensitive to terror attacks. To put it bluntly, terrorism has never paid off as well as it does today.

BTW, in the beginning of the 20'th century the main culprit of terror was atheist anarchists. Using the logic of this thread would mean that atheism leads to terrorism, and we have to root them out and expel them from the west. We didn't, and things turned out just fine.

The difference between an atheist and a follower of perhaps the worst terrorist who ever lived is like water and a volcanic rock!

Gavrillo Princip's murder of archduke Franz Ferdinand caused the outbreak of WWI. No, Muslim terrorist is close to unleashing that amount of carnage.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yes. Your "morality" is warped.

You say after we rape the Iraqi people for decades we can make up for it by killing and torturing many Iraqi's.

You have no understanding of basic human morality.

The Bush administration mismanaged the Iraqui occupation monumentally. They had no plan. Because Bush rushed it in order to be at war during his re-election campaign to boost his numbers. Which is pretty damn criminal. They made a shit tonne of mistakes. Another problem with rushing into it was that Europe was split. The "freedom fries" incident is still fucking retarded.

Saying that I was for the removal of Saddam, doesn't mean that I'm for the way it was done. I still think that in the long run military invasion was probably the best option. Keeping that madman in power would not have benefited anyone. The guy was a lunatic. Erratic and dangerous. If the Arab spring would have happened with Saddam at the helm that would have been a shit storm of unbridled proportion.

What has kept that dictatorship in power is the support in weaponry and logistics provided by the US and Britain.

The US and Britain are responsible for the massive fundamentalist indoctrination of the area that has come from Saudi Arabia.

Because of your prior (mis-)use of the word "dictorship", I don't know what you mean.

ISIS is not powerful any longer.

Do you know how much damage it did?

Past tense.

All of it is the responsibility of the US.

Don't you think the Jihadi fighters share some of the blame?

I do not know how you manage to live.

That's one of the great mysteries of life

 

[untermensche]

The Bush administration mismanaged the Iraqui occupation monumentally. They had no plan. Because Bush rushed it in order to be at war during his re-election campaign to boost his numbers. Which is pretty damn criminal. They made a shit tonne of mistakes. Another problem with rushing into it was that Europe was split. The "freedom fries" incident is still fucking retarded.

Your hole where a sense of human morality is supposed to be is amazing, and gaping.

They committed a huge crime against humanity by invading.

The people that ordered the terrorist attack of Iraq are criminals. Their punishment should be decided in a court like Nuremberg.

Saying that I was for the removal of Saddam, doesn't mean that I'm for the way it was done.

Saddam Hussein did not represent a threat to the US.

The way you get rid of him is first of all to not help him gain power, then after the first Gulf War, a much more morally acceptable use of force since it was approved by the UN, but not without it's crimes, you do not allow Hussein to slaughter the forces that have risen against him.

But that is not what the US wanted.

It did not want Iraqi's establishing a government for themselves.

The US wanted to say what kind of government could be established, and it did, and the US wanted to have some control over that government, which it had.

Because of your prior (mis-)use of the word "dictorship", I don't know what you mean.

If you can't understand that Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship then go the fuck away. We are done.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Your hole where a sense of human morality is supposed to be is amazing, and gaping.

They committed a huge crime against humanity by invading.

The people that ordered the terrorist attack of Iraq are criminals. Their punishment should be decided in a court like Nuremberg.

The invasion itself had incredibly low casualties. It has to be weighed against the casualties of Iraqis tortured to death in torture chambers, and the people killed by a murderous regime. Simply by being denied healthcare and such. Saddam was a horrendous dictator.

Saddam Hussein did not represent a threat to the US.

No. But a threat to the Iraqi people.

The way you get rid of him is first of all to not help him gain power, then after the first Gulf War, a much more morally acceptable use of force since it was approved by the UN, but not without it's crimes, you do not allow Hussein to slaughter the forces that have risen against him.

You seem awfully confused about what I'm defending.

But that is not what the US wanted.


It did not want Iraqi's establishing a government for themselves.

The US wanted to say what kind of government could be established, and it did, and the US wanted to have some control over that government, which it had.

USA, since WW2 confused capitalism with actual freedom. It somehow thought that capitalism is more important than democracy. That's why all the carnage and support of corrupt kleptocratic American cold war puppets.

Because of your prior (mis-)use of the word "dictorship", I don't know what you mean.

If you can't understand that Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship then go the fuck away. We are done.

The word has a standard definition. But I have no way of knowing if you're using the standard definition.

 

[angelo]

The difference between an atheist and a follower of perhaps the worst terrorist who ever lived is like water and a volcanic rock!

Gavrillo Princip's murder of archduke Franz Ferdinand caused the outbreak of WWI. No, Muslim terrorist is close to unleashing that amount of carnage.

It is estimated that Islam, since it's inception, has been responsible for perhaps over 100 million people. And that's a conservative number.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[untermensche]

The invasion itself had incredibly low casualties.

None were justified. Each was a war crime. You just don't get it. You have no human morality.

Morality means that what actions you justify for yourself you justify for all others.

The terrorist attack was not gentle.

Many were maimed and disabled besides the dead.

Then after the invasion the terrorists began rounding up innocent people and torturing them.

It has to be weighed against the casualties of Iraqis tortured to death in torture chambers, and the people killed by a murderous regime.

No it doesn't. That is INSANITY.

It is a crime that has to be ADDED onto previous crimes. It was not justified in any way.

If you can't understand that Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship then go the fuck away. We are done.

The word has a standard definition. But I have no way of knowing if you're using the standard definition.

Tell me how a monarchy is not a dictatorship?

Where is ultimate power and how is this power achieved? How does one acquire power?

If it achieved by being born you are in a dictatorship.

Dictatorship is a power arrangement.

It is where one or a few have all power and all the rest must comply or face punishment.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What is happening now is a direct result of British and then US support of the Saudi dictatorship and the British/US fiasco in Iran.

The result of this interference by the US and Britain has been a steady rise in fundamentalism in the region.

As I said some of this was done deliberately as a method to destroy the secular pan-Arab movements in the ME. That has been the great fear in the powers that want to control ME oil.

Look at the results of the failure of those dictators--it's almost always meant replacing a moderate dictator with an Islamist dictator which ends up being worse for the people.

Trying to keep the moderate dictators in power is a case of choosing the lesser evil--something Obama screwed up on.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

None were justified. Each was a war crime. You just don't get it. You have no human morality.

Morality means that what actions you justify for yourself you justify for all others.

The terrorist attack was not gentle.

Many were maimed and disabled besides the dead.

Then after the invasion the terrorists began rounding up innocent people and torturing them.



No it doesn't. That is INSANITY.

It is a crime that has to be ADDED onto previous crimes. It was not justified in any way.

In other words, nothing can be done about crime if any innocent will suffer.

 

[untermensche]

None were justified. Each was a war crime. You just don't get it. You have no human morality.

Morality means that what actions you justify for yourself you justify for all others.

The terrorist attack was not gentle.

Many were maimed and disabled besides the dead.

Then after the invasion the terrorists began rounding up innocent people and torturing them.



No it doesn't. That is INSANITY.

It is a crime that has to be ADDED onto previous crimes. It was not justified in any way.

In other words, nothing can be done about crime if any innocent will suffer.

Morality means the things I allow for myself I allow for all.

What you are saying is it is alright for any nation to invade any other nation.

All they have to do is say they are afraid of WMD.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

The invasion itself had incredibly low casualties. It has to be weighed against the casualties of Iraqis tortured to death in torture chambers, and the people killed by a murderous regime. Simply by being denied healthcare and such. Saddam was a horrendous dictator.



No. But a threat to the Iraqi people.

The way you get rid of him is first of all to not help him gain power, then after the first Gulf War, a much more morally acceptable use of force since it was approved by the UN, but not without it's crimes, you do not allow Hussein to slaughter the forces that have risen against him.

You seem awfully confused about what I'm defending.

But that is not what the US wanted.


It did not want Iraqi's establishing a government for themselves.

The US wanted to say what kind of government could be established, and it did, and the US wanted to have some control over that government, which it had.

USA, since WW2 confused capitalism with actual freedom. It somehow thought that capitalism is more important than democracy. That's why all the carnage and support of corrupt kleptocratic American cold war puppets.

Because of your prior (mis-)use of the word "dictorship", I don't know what you mean.

If you can't understand that Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship then go the fuck away. We are done.

The word has a standard definition. But I have no way of knowing if you're using the standard definition.

Are you saying it's better in Iraq now than it was under Saddam?

 

[untermensche]

What is happening now is a direct result of British and then US support of the Saudi dictatorship and the British/US fiasco in Iran.

The result of this interference by the US and Britain has been a steady rise in fundamentalism in the region.

As I said some of this was done deliberately as a method to destroy the secular pan-Arab movements in the ME. That has been the great fear in the powers that want to control ME oil.

Look at the results of the failure of those dictators--it's almost always meant replacing a moderate dictator with an Islamist dictator which ends up being worse for the people.

Trying to keep the moderate dictators in power is a case of choosing the lesser evil--something Obama screwed up on.

TOTAL BULLSHIT!!!!!!!

I've never heard such bullshit!

You are saying we MUST support dictators because there is no choice.

Total fucking bullshit.

It is possible to support Democracy.

Israel has a partial democracy. It is not a dictatorship for Jews and a few of the Arabs under Israeli control.

And we support it more than any nation has supported another in history.