Learner - it sounds like you plan to pretend the question was not asked. Then answer you own with:
I could also just 'say' I don't know.
Are the quotes to establish that it is an untruth that you don’t know and you are just saying that to avoid discussion? I’m confused what the quote marks are intended to mean.
But a reminder: the question was, in what way is Yahweh’s eden story different from a parent putting an appealing weapon, and a deceiver intent on making them use it, into a child’s room and then punishing the child for failing to ignore it?
The eden story goes:
- Yahweh is a loving guardian.
- Yahwah places ignorant-and-happy-and-immortal humans in a garden
- Yahweh also places in the garden a “fruit,” that, if “eaten,” will destroy the happiness and end the life. (Was immortal, now will die (plus all the other bad things like painful childbirth))
Without the first lie from the serpent,
The serpent that, of course, Yahweh deliberately, and with foreknowledge of the consequences, put into the garden with them…
Adam & Eve would still be innocent creatures, but alas, this didn't happen
Because of Yahweh’s choices and actions - taken with full and complete foreknowledge of the outcome of his decisions.
- what happend in Eden, brought about a whole sequence of events, throughout the timeline of all human existence.
That sequence of events that, your story says, Yahweh knew completely before he made a decision to place the tree and the serpent in his garden. “Lovingly.”
I often wonder, when Christians argue this; are you asserting that Yahweh was powerless to do anything different? Is he laboring under an addictive compulsion that prevents him from doing any better? From deciding to
not create suffering.
Or does Yahweh answer to his father (or owner, or creator) who forces him to obey certain rules against his nature?
I can never tell in what way you are admitting the weakness of your lord, here.
But a reminder: the question was, in what way is Yahweh’s eden story different from a parent putting an appealing weapon, and a deceiver intent on making them use it, into a child’s room and then punishing the child for failing to ignore it?
Humans decide their 'own' directional paths, determined by each individual's actions
…In the presence of deliberately placed appealing dangers
- BUT this ALSO applies to angels too!
Once Yahweh has permitted them access to the humans.
But a reminder: the question was, in what way is Yahweh’s eden story different from a parent putting an appealing weapon, and a deceiver intent on making them use it, into a child’s room and then punishing the child for failing to ignore it?
As a “loving parent,” Yahweh did not protect his children from a predator. He let the predator into the room, and stood back while the predator did what it wanted.
The desired 'wills' of 'every' entity, 'has' to be 'tested' and 'played out!' Including satan.
Why.
Whose rule is this? Why is it a rule? Does Yahweh love this rule? Did he create this rule?
Or was it created by his creator and he is bound against his will to follow it.
Are you sure mankind didn’t fabricate this rule? How are you sure of that?
It seems like a rule that mankid would fabricate to handwave away the existence of evil that was placed in the creation by Yahweh himself. Yahweh did make the angels, right?
(Corollary plot hole: we should assume this is all still true in Heaven, right? Since Yahweh cannot avoid it or overome it? Evil, hurt, harm, suffering all exists in heaven because of the rule you state above: ‘has’ to be ‘tested’ and ‘played out.’)
But a reminder: the question was, in what way is Yahweh’s eden story different from a parent putting an appealing weapon, and a deceiver intent on making them use it, into a child’s room and then punishing the child for failing to ignore it?
No parent would be absolved of letting a predator harm their child by saying, “well, I had to test them! I had to let it play out!” Because that is not parenting. That is doing evil experiments on children.
Angels and mankind therefore acquire a mark of 'worthiness value' weighed by the actions stemming from their willing hearts & minds - which means that if you willingly WANT to be with God in the next world, it will be so. Those who don't, won't. That's the brief summary of how the story narrative goes.
So when they get to the next next world, they all stop being “willing hearts & minds”?
Keeping in mind that the god knows, in advance, which angels and people will be worthy. He does not have to make them suffer to know. He does not even have to create them to know. He could choose to create only the worthy ones. But he chooses to.
This sounds a lot like creating suffering just to watch it.
Which brings us back to this question: in what way is Yahweh’s eden story different from a parent putting an appealing weapon, and a deceiver intent on making them use it, into a child’s room and then punishing the child for failing to ignore it?
It sounds like your answer here is, “it is no different. He likes to watch suffering, and so he creates it on purpose just to watch it happen and punish those who he knew would fail before they were even born, as well as punish all of those who are harmed by those who fail.
One of the most cruel and distressing realities of this belief is that WE KNOW that if we abuse a child, we can create a criminal adult. We KNOW this, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Your god does this, creates abusers, lets them abuse children, and then punishes the children for being typical victims of abuse.
So yahweh doesn’t just punish the criminal, he
creates them from previously non-criminal children.
Honestly - this statement is really REALLY disturbing that anyone would think it was “loving”;
acquire a mark of 'worthiness value' weighed by the actions stemming from their willing hearts & minds
Parents do NOT spend their time wondering if their child is “worthy” of their parenting. Are you a parent? This is pretty gross.
- Yahweh tells the humans not to eat the incredibly dangerous fruit that he put into their garden.
- Yahwek places in the garden a deceiver (serpent) that tries to tempt the adoringly loved by Yahweh humans into eating this fruit.
- Yahweh watches without comment as the decevier that he put into the garden introduces his beloved humans to the dangerous fruit that he put in the garden.
- Yahweh punishes the humans with pain, disease, suffering and death for being curious - the way he made them - and succumbing to the deceiver - that he made - and eating the dangerous fruit - that he made and put into their community.
- This is True Love (tm)
That is what is being placed next to an analogy of a human parent
- placing a dangerous item in their kids’ room
- placing a deceiver in there with them to entice them to use the dangerous item
- And being called loving
*This is not a trick or a gotcha. It’s not sarcasm or mal intent.*
*No it's a distorted view.*
Then answer the question without distortion:
in what way is Yahweh’s eden story different from a parent putting an appealing weapon, and a deceiver intent on making them use it, into a child’s room and then punishing the child for failing to ignore it?
This is a Very Serious Moral Flaw in the bible story [....]
We ask you a direct question; this is what it looks like to us. How does it not look that way to you?
-> now you will decide whether you answer it with honest intent, whether you dodge and pretend it’s a joke that you don’t have to address, or whether you just clam up and refuse to address it.
I have no problem, or fear of answering questions.
Then just do it.
I could be seen as arrogant or foolish when I do, giving, what may seem to you, foolish or incorrect answers. I could also just 'say' I don't know. It's just my view point, a theist that will of course, be at odds with other people.
As I note at the top of this post, it looks like you are taking another opportunity to decide to not answer the question.
- Are you worried about looking arrogant or foolish? Why, if you feel you are telling a truth? Does the truth look foolish and arrogant?
- Is the answer you give possibly incorrect? Then why would you not welcome discussion of it to correct yourself?
- If you plan to say you don’t know, when you think you do, isn’t that false witness? Why not just NOT POST, then? Or are you hoping to get some content out there while never answering the discussion? Wouldn’t that be preaching rather than discussion?
- Of course you’re at odds with other people. That’s the whole point of discussion. Do you fear this?
