Excommunication letter

[gmbteach]

Do churches ever kick you off the rolls for failure to attend? I was a member of a Southern Baptist church 25 years ago. Maybe I should them a letter...

I would, you don't want to be 'excommunicated' for not attending. Which to me is as silly a reason as loving a fellow human being.

 

[Valjean]

I'd ask to see the excommunication letters of the people who failed to keep the sabbath holy (that would be at the least everyone who didn't attend church regularly), the liars, the adulterers, the fornicators, the thieves, etc., etc.

Well, considering the Sabbath is actually Saturday, that would pretty much damn the whole congregation, wouldn't it?

 

[braces_for_impact]

Our voters voted you out! So nah nah! You can't come in unless we say so, and give you the super secret password! The whole things is so childish, the only thing that cheapens it further is that it strikes me as a form letter. Dear Icky Sinner. You have been excommunicated for the sin of INSERT CONDEMNATION HERE[/U

My reply would be a 30 foot banner hung over the front entrance overnight for everyone to see Sunday morning. It would be hung with chain and padlocks to make removal difficult and time consuming. It would read "Dear St. Paul's Lutheran voters, eat a bowl of dicks! Sincerely, Me!"

 

[Keith&Co.]

Our voters voted you out! So nah nah! You can't come in unless we say so, and give you the super secret password! The whole things is so childish, the only thing that cheapens it further is that it strikes me as a form letter. Dear Icky Sinner. You have been excommunicated for the sin of INSERT CONDEMNATION HERE[/U

Am i the only one imagining Calvin writing an excommunication letter to Susie?

 

[dx713]

Excommunication, per se, isn't that silly.
It's an expression of "you don't belong with us", and no more silly than an Epicurean not letting into his garden someone who's not ready to play nice.

Now, of course, the analogy breaks down where the church believes it has a monopoly for salvation and everybody not going through it will be tortured forever in hell. When you claim eternity and universality, it becomes evil to deny it to some...

 

[OLDMAN]

Is it me, or did they miss the entire point of the bible passage. I read it to mean, if you refuse to forgive someone of their trespasses, then "you" will be refused forgiveness. Maybe I'm reading it wrong...but what would be the point of the passage, if I am mistaken? God doesn't forgive those who are not forgiven by members of the church? Does it work both ways, if the church forgives, does God? When did it become a democracy?

I think it is there to remind the church and Christians to forgive all.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Is it me, or did they miss the entire point of the bible passage. I read it to mean, if you refuse to forgive someone of their trespasses, then "you" will be refused forgiveness.

No, i think you're wrong. The KJV language:

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong...but what would be the point of the passage, if I am mistaken? God doesn't forgive those who are not forgiven by members of the church? Does it work both ways, if the church forgives, does God? When did it become a democracy?

Not a democracy, but a hierarchy. Delegation. It's basically the Catholic church's mission statement. They're down here deciding who does and doesn't get forgiven, so you can get the results NOW, rather than waiting until the polls close.
From a 'religion is man's invention' POV, it makes sense that the religious authority can just point and say, 'Not only is that icky behavior, WE withhold forgiving you for it, so you're doomed.'

For an actual God, i don't know. Maybe Jesus figured that he had more compassion for his fellow man while he was knocking around with a pulse? Maybe he thinks we're in a better position to know if our peers' sins should be forgiven?

I think it is there to remind the church and Christians to forgive all.

It could still be that. Maybe Christ's intention was to say, 'be careful who you condemn, because, boys, you now have the Holy Spirit, and God's own authority to condemn. So be careful.'

Whoops.

 

[Bronzeage]

Is it me, or did they miss the entire point of the bible passage. I read it to mean, if you refuse to forgive someone of their trespasses, then "you" will be refused forgiveness. Maybe I'm reading it wrong...but what would be the point of the passage, if I am mistaken? God doesn't forgive those who are not forgiven by members of the church? Does it work both ways, if the church forgives, does God? When did it become a democracy?

I think it is there to remind the church and Christians to forgive all.

It is important to make a distinction between heavenly matters and earthly matters.

In a Protestant church, where salvation is a matter of the individual's heart, excommunication does not come with damnation or denial of entry into heaven. The earthly church does not claim that power. There is no ritual performed by a human which can do that. Protestant excommunication is an administrative matter and in that it is a democracy.

The excommunicant is not denied heavenly forgiveness and there is nothing to say he is denied earthly forgiveness, either. What he is denied is access to the community. A church is like any other group with a common interest, in that they have a list of requirements in order to claim to be a group member. A person who will not conform to that list will be told, "You are not one of us." What's more, the world will also be informed.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Deuteronomy 13 and 17 are pretty clear, in God's own words, that it is the believer's duty to kill all apostates. Deuteronomy 4 warns the faithful not to add or subtract from God's commandments. And God is immutable, eternal. Otherwise he'd be a situation ethicist like these humanists I keep hearing about.

 

[Malintent]

Is it me, or did they miss the entire point of the bible passage. I read it to mean, if you refuse to forgive someone of their trespasses, then "you" will be refused forgiveness. Maybe I'm reading it wrong...but what would be the point of the passage, if I am mistaken? God doesn't forgive those who are not forgiven by members of the church? Does it work both ways, if the church forgives, does God? When did it become a democracy?

I think it is there to remind the church and Christians to forgive all.

This was my first thought too... it seems they saying in the letter that they are ordered by god to forgive, but have voted not to. They confuse "repent and seek forgiveness" with "give forgiveness", in their citation.

 

[Bronzeage]

Is it me, or did they miss the entire point of the bible passage. I read it to mean, if you refuse to forgive someone of their trespasses, then "you" will be refused forgiveness. Maybe I'm reading it wrong...but what would be the point of the passage, if I am mistaken? God doesn't forgive those who are not forgiven by members of the church? Does it work both ways, if the church forgives, does God? When did it become a democracy?

I think it is there to remind the church and Christians to forgive all.

This was my first thought too... it seems they saying in the letter that they are ordered by god to forgive, but have voted not to. They confuse "repent and seek forgiveness" with "give forgiveness", in their citation.

What does forgiveness mean in this context?

 

[Malintent]

This was my first thought too... it seems they saying in the letter that they are ordered by god to forgive, but have voted not to. They confuse "repent and seek forgiveness" with "give forgiveness", in their citation.

What does forgiveness mean in this context?

As far as I understand... lip service. "I forgive you".
As far as I think they intended to mean, "We gave you the opportunity to be forgiven, but you will not accept that you require forgiveness by not being gay anymore"... but they fail to provide the citation of their thought process and instead site aparagraph that condems the "voters" for their lack of forgiveness. They say that they cannot forgive because he will not repent. They need to forgive regardless. Or else.

 

[Bronzeage]

What does forgiveness mean in this context?

As far as I understand... lip service. "I forgive you".
As far as I think they intended to mean, "We gave you the opportunity to be forgiven, but you will not accept that you require forgiveness by not being gay anymore"... but they fail to provide the citation of their thought process and instead site aparagraph that condems the "voters" for their lack of forgiveness. They say that they cannot forgive because he will not repent. They need to forgive regardless. Or else.

What's the point of that? If anyone, regardless of action or belief, is allowed the fellowship of their church, what distinguishes them from a crowd waiting at a bus stop? It's a case of the Hat Club. If you don't want to wear the hat, you can't be in the club. If nobody wears a hat, there is no hat club.

The line about "We have withheld forgiveness because you do not desire it." is a little strange. It brings up a legal question, can one offer to forgive another, if one has not actually been offended by their action? The offense in this case is against God, and forgiveness is something for God to consider. This leads to another problem. Since those who receive the Holy Spirit are agents of God and able to forgive sins, if it turns out this guy was already forgiven by God, then the Holy Spirit was lacking in their church.

I think this not so much about being a gay Lutheran, it's more about being a gay Lutheran and not shutting up about it.