Fake Gay Marriage Website and SCOTUS Ruling

[Jimmy Higgins]

Are you suggesting a return to a time when concealing one's homosexuality was necessary for simple activities like shopping? That seems like a logical course of action.

No.
Why would you think I'm suggesting that? It's kinda the opposite of what I said.
Tom

I too immediately questioned what you meant because it sure sounded like you wanted more restrictions on people.

What TomC wants is unclear. TomC supports people* not being forced** to sell*** to other people**** if other options***** are available******. Very doubtful TomC will elaborate on the asterisks that are the source of the clarity issue. Pretty certain we'll get a "he doesn't give a fuck what he thinks".

That wasn't a typo.

 

[TomC]

Very doubtful TomC will elaborate on the asterisks that are the source of the clarity issue.

It is very doubtful that I'll bother responding to people making up stuff and attributing it to me.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And if you live in an area where all 20 don’t want to make you the cake what then? Or do places like that not exist?

As far as I know, none exist. Maybe you can find one, Scardina couldn't. Basic business practices will get rid of the hold outs.

Many years back, a local couple started a business. It was a website advertising wedding services of all kinds, venues and caterers and flowers and clothes... The one caveat was the suppliers had to be overtly gay friendly. They knew that prospective buyers, especially upscale buyers, cared about marriage equality. It failed, completely.

Turns out virtually every wedding business in southern Indiana was business savvy enough to take clients regardless of orientation. The few who weren't were well known and restricted to tiny niches.
I watched an extremely upscale bride delete a caterer from her short list. I asked her why. She said, "A friend told me that place wouldn't do her cousin's gay wedding." Simple as that. A bride with a $40K budget deleted that caterer, because she thought that they might be homophobic.

I believe that is the modern social norm, even here in conservative Indiana.
Tom

Exactly. It's wrong but it's not actually causing appreciable harm. I care far more about harm done than getting it perfect.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Very doubtful TomC will elaborate on the asterisks that are the source of the clarity issue.

It is very doubtful that I'll bother responding to people making up stuff and attributing it to me.

TomC evasive response to an honest inquiry...

BiNGO!

 

[Toni]

Get your head out of the technicalities, look at the big picture.

I'd argue the same thing.
I'm in my mid60s, lived my whole life in conservative Indiana.

I've watched society go from legally and socially enforced discrimination of all kinds to the modern world. When I was a kid, us queers had better stay invisible if we valued our lives. Now, a bakery in Colorado or a hairdresser in Michigan can generate enough outrage to attract national news attention.

That's the big picture. I think it's time to start restricting the restrictions.
Tom

I grew up when/where you did and let me assure you: not every queer kid had the option of being invisible.

 

[TomC]

Get your head out of the technicalities, look at the big picture.

I'd argue the same thing.
I'm in my mid60s, lived my whole life in conservative Indiana.

I've watched society go from legally and socially enforced discrimination of all kinds to the modern world. When I was a kid, us queers had better stay invisible if we valued our lives. Now, a bakery in Colorado or a hairdresser in Michigan can generate enough outrage to attract national news attention.

That's the big picture. I think it's time to start restricting the restrictions.
Tom

I grew up when/where you did and let me assure you: not every queer kid had the option of being invisible.

And things have changed so much that a hair salon in Traverse City is national news.
Tom

 

[Shadowy Man]

I think the moral* of the story is that eventually** the invisible hand of the free*** market cures**** all*****.

 

[TomC]

I think the moral* of the story is that eventually** the invisible hand of the free*** market cures**** all*****.

Why would anyone think that?
Tom

 

[Shadowy Man]

I think the moral* of the story is that eventually** the invisible hand of the free*** market cures**** all*****.

Why would anyone think that?
Tom

Lots of people think that. Isn't that that pushed by conservatives who want to deregulate industry?

But anyway in this context, it would seem, and I guess I'm likely wrong by your response, that the argument is that if there's a business that discriminates then some customers won't frequent it and if they find that discrimination appears to be a bad business model then they won't keep doing it or their business will suffer or die. No need to have the government enforce anti-discrimination laws on these businesses.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think the moral* of the story is that eventually** the invisible hand of the free*** market cures**** all*****.

Why would anyone think that?
Tom

Lots of people think that. Isn't that that pushed by conservatives who want to deregulate industry?

Literally the solution RVonse provided for Climate Change in another thread.

But anyway in this context, it would seem, and I guess I'm likely wrong by your response, that the argument is that if there's a business that discriminates then some customers won't frequent it and if they find that discrimination appears to be a bad business model then they won't keep doing it or their business will suffer or die. No need to have the government enforce anti-discrimination laws on these businesses.

I think the real problem is that white people are fragile snowflakes that hate having to recognize the rights/privileges other people get to have. That is racism!

The survey of 1,638 U.S. adults, which was conducted from July 13-17, shows that among 2020 Trump voters, 62% say that racism against Black Americans is a problem today — while 73% say that racism against white Americans is a problem.

Asked how much of a problem racism currently is, just 19% of Trump voters describe racism against Black Americans as a “big problem.” Twice as many (37%) say racism against white Americans is a big problem.

This isn't same gender stuff, but it is heavily related as it is another indicator that alt-right wingers really seem to think that they are under attack... for having to recognize the rights and privileges of people they feel are inferior, or feel that the *insert group* have an unfair advantage. These people are either bigots or painfully isolated from society.

 

[Gospel]

Get your head out of the technicalities, look at the big picture.

I'd argue the same thing.
I'm in my mid60s, lived my whole life in conservative Indiana.

I've watched society go from legally and socially enforced discrimination of all kinds to the modern world. When I was a kid, us queers had better stay invisible if we valued our lives. Now, a bakery in Colorado or a hairdresser in Michigan can generate enough outrage to attract national news attention.

That's the big picture. I think it's time to start restricting the restrictions.
Tom

I grew up when/where you did and let me assure you: not every queer kid had the option of being invisible.

And things have changed so much that a hair salon in Traverse City is national news.
Tom

Oh, let me guess, this transformation couldn't possibly have anything to do with a significant piece of legislation that some folks are itching to overturn, could it? I can't help but marvel at what miraculous turn of events might occur when they finally manage to undo it.

 

[TomC]

Oh, let me guess, this transformation couldn't possibly have anything to do with a significant piece of legislation

Of course it did.

That legislation is hugely responsible for the transformation that has occurred in U.S. society between the 1960s and the current social norms.

But the transformation did happen. It took decades. Nothing is perfect, especially not humans. Nevertheless, pretending that we still live in the society of the 60s is ridiculous and counterproductive.
Tom

 

[Toni]

I think the moral* of the story is that eventually** the invisible hand of the free*** market cures**** all*****.

Why would anyone think that?
Tom

Lots of people think that. Isn't that that pushed by conservatives who want to deregulate industry?

Literally the solution RVonse provided for Climate Change in another thread.

But anyway in this context, it would seem, and I guess I'm likely wrong by your response, that the argument is that if there's a business that discriminates then some customers won't frequent it and if they find that discrimination appears to be a bad business model then they won't keep doing it or their business will suffer or die. No need to have the government enforce anti-discrimination laws on these businesses.

I think the real problem is that white people are fragile snowflakes that hate having to recognize the rights/privileges other people get to have. That is racism!

The survey of 1,638 U.S. adults, which was conducted from July 13-17, shows that among 2020 Trump voters, 62% say that racism against Black Americans is a problem today — while 73% say that racism against white Americans is a problem.

Asked how much of a problem racism currently is, just 19% of Trump voters describe racism against Black Americans as a “big problem.” Twice as many (37%) say racism against white Americans is a big problem.

This isn't same gender stuff, but it is heavily related as it is another indicator that alt-right wingers really seem to think that they are under attack... for having to recognize the rights and privileges of people they feel are inferior, or feel that the *insert group* have an unfair advantage. These people are either bigots or painfully isolated from society.

I think a real problem for a lot of white people who grew up in very, very modest circumstances and often still live in very modest circumstances, their circumstances being limited by the relative poverty of their grandparents and before is calling it privilege. People who struggle to keep food on the table and taxes and mortgage or rent paid and worry about utility bills and worry about medical bills simply have a difficult time seeing themselves as privileged in any way. It's a term I struggled with quite a bit because the general acceptance one has because one is white simply seems to me that it is not/should not be a privilege and should be simply how all people are treated, regardless of where their grandparents and great grandparents were born and whether any of their ancestors were ever enslaved or forced onto reservations or into interment camps, etc. Everybody should be treated equally under the law and have equal access to education, health care, decent housing, jobs, opportunities, regardless of the color of their skin or their ancestry, sexual orientation or identification, gender, religion, etc. To me, that is not 'privilege.' That is just human rights and must be include us all.

Yes, I am completely aware and have seen up close and personal that many people have not been treated as equal to white people. I understand privilege as being relative to everybody else but those are rights: being treated equally under the law, in all respects outlined above (and including any I did not mention in my current sleep deprived state). Privilege is something that can be taken away. Rights are inalienable and cannot be taken away, although some rights might be lost under certain circumstances such as being convicted of some crimes.

I accept the word privilege as it is used in this context but I think that it is a misnomer and part of me thinks that it was chosen specifically because it will cause conflict and resistance from people who struggle and whose families have always struggled and for whom the word privilege tastes like sawdust. Yes, I am extremely aware that my white forebears who struggled mightily for a few generations, if not longer, struggled less than they would have if their skins had not been pretty darn white and their 'old country' had not been located in Europe.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What time in history do you think Trump is referring to when he says Make America Great Again?

 

[Gospel]

Nevertheless, pretending that we still live in the society of the 60s is ridiculous and counterproductive.

I understand your perspective, yet it appears we're discussing something entirely different. The 60's had their own share of struggles which as we both seem to agree, significant legislation has helped change. Our present conversation revolves around the practice of religion being employed as a tool for discrimination. To suggest that religion has undergone significant transformation since that bygone era, as you have so deftly implied, is an exercise in fantastical thinking that teeters on the border of delusion.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yes, I am completely aware and have seen up close and personal that many people have not been treated as equal to white people. I understand privilege as being relative to everybody else but those are rights: being treated equally under the law, in all respects outlined above (and including any I did not mention in my current sleep deprived state). Privilege is something that can be taken away. Rights are inalienable and cannot be taken away, although some rights might be lost under certain circumstances such as being convicted of some crimes.

The Constitution doesn't draw a line between Privileges and Rights. Privileges are not meant to be arbitrarily withheld.

I accept the word privilege as it is used in this context but I think that it is a misnomer and part of me thinks that it was chosen specifically because it will cause conflict and resistance from people who struggle and whose families have always struggled and for whom the word privilege tastes like sawdust. Yes, I am extremely aware that my white forebears who struggled mightily for a few generations, if not longer, struggled less than they would have if their skins had not been pretty darn white and their 'old country' had not been located in Europe.

My problem with the alt-righters is their complete and utter indifference (at best) to the extraordinary struggle put forth on minorities in the US, intentionally by white people. As my handle would indicate, I'm quite knowledgeable regarding the white struggle in labor. Which kind of makes this whole alt-right position so absurd, because the alt-right is also anti-union, which is what helped make working conditions survivable for white people back in the day. Alt-right'ers are under this adolescent delusion of their problems are the only problems. They lack knowledge or care for knowledge of any large world perspective.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Nevertheless, pretending that we still live in the society of the 60s is ridiculous and counterproductive.

I understand your perspective, yet it appears we're discussing something entirely different. The 60's had their own share of struggles which as we both seem to agree, significant legislation has helped change. Our present conversation revolves around the practice of religion being employed as a tool for discrimination. To suggest that religion has undergone significant transformation since that bygone era, as you have so deftly implied, is an exercise in fantastical thinking that teeters on the border of delusion.

Can we mention how the Voting Rights Act was gutted by SCOTUS in 2013 because they said we didn't need it anymore...

Our country has changed, and while any racial discrimination in voting is too much, Congress must ensure that the legislation it passes to remedy that problem speaks to current conditions

...and then blacks (and Hispanics in Texas) were almost immediately gerrymandered out of representation, greatly reducing representation in the US House? In the very states that were feared to do such things! My understanding on America and race (and how things weren't quite as good as we (liberal white people) though) changed a lot during the Obama Administration.

 

[Gospel]

Ah, but of course! While we're merrily strolling down the lanes of history to forget the swingin' 1960s, my dear friend, It certainly isn't 1776 either! So, by that logic, wouldn't it be just quaint if we dusted off those old colonial hats and reverted America back to good old British rule? After all, who doesn't love a dash of monarchy with their morning tea?

 

[TomC]

What time in history do you think Trump is referring to when he says Make America Great Again?

I've asked that question more than once.

As far as I can tell, it's the heyday of American socialism. The Eisenhower era. Mid 50s to mid 60s. Booming economy and top marginal tax rates near 90%. Massive taxpayer support for infrastructure like the interstate "freeways". The "Great Society", all that sort of thing.

But it's hard to say because nobody I know will say what it means.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

What time in history do you think Trump is referring to when he says Make America Great Again?

I've asked that question more than once.

As far as I can tell, it's the heyday of American socialism. The Eisenhower era. Mid 50s to mid 60s. Booming economy and top marginal tax rates near 90%. Massive taxpayer support for infrastructure like the interstate "freeways". The "Great Society", all that sort of thing.

But it's hard to say because nobody I know will say what it means.
Tom

One thing remains indisputably clear: individuals identifying as gay were historically compelled to conceal their true sexual orientation in order to participate. All thanks to legislation you believe we don't need anymore because Jesus has miraculously returned to earth and changed religion.