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Family Leave

The downside of this is that it will make employers less likely to hire reproductive-age women.

Yup. That's why almost no women of reproductive age are employed in Europe or Australasia. :rolleyes:

Oddly enough, observation trumps theory every time. So every one of your theories that flies in the face of the reality in other parts of the world that have implemented the policies you theorise to be unworkable, is bunk.

No matter how much you feel like they are reasonable and logical.

The flaw this time is your missing the idea that both mother and father should get paid parental leave. So this proposal should, by your logic, make employers less likely to hire reproductive age people of either gender. Leaving them with a fucking HUGE labour shortage. Unless they are a lot smarter than you think.

My only caveat to that is that as far as I am aware, it is still overwhelmingly women who actually take parental leave, even where men have the option. I could be wrong. It probably differs country to country. I believe it was the case in Western Europe, but I am not sure how up to date I am now.

I suppose we could go mandatory, as Toni is suggesting, but I'm not sure about that. I think some Scandinavian countries have at least come very close to this.
 
The downside of this is that it will make employers less likely to hire reproductive-age women.

Yup. That's why almost no women of reproductive age are employed in Europe or Australasia. :rolleyes:

Oddly enough, observation trumps theory every time. So every one of your theories that flies in the face of the reality in other parts of the world that have implemented the policies you theorise to be unworkable, is bunk.

No matter how much you feel like they are reasonable and logical.

The flaw this time is your missing the idea that both mother and father should get paid parental leave. So this proposal should, by your logic, make employers less likely to hire reproductive age people of either gender. Leaving them with a fucking HUGE labour shortage. Unless they are a lot smarter than you think.

I said "less likely", not that they would never be hired.
 
Yea, it's a complicated issue. For one, many people today are self employed. Many workers are paid on production or commission. Do families that adopt get the same benefits (I'd hope so). Generally I agree with Toni that more needs to be done. However, I agree that it's not necessary a natural human right. This might seem wacky, but maybe we should consider honoring people who aren't contributing to the population problem! As a society, we create more babies than we can adequately care for.

It's an attempt to push costs off onto entities they feel are deep pockets that can be tapped to pay for whatever the left wants. Your point about the self-employed exposes the problem, though. How do you have paid benefits when you're paying yourself?

My thoughts:

1) All forms of welfare (and that's what this is) should come from the government. If you don't think the government should be paying that's a clear indication you don't actually think it's worth paying for, you just want to bill someone else.

2) I would like to see a system where the government sets up some standard benefit systems. Think of the gold/silver/bronze we have for ACA health insurance these days. The state doesn't say what level you provide, just that stating a wage must include the benefit level and the company is bound by what they say. (The labor department would treat a failure to provide the benefits the same as a failure to pay some of your wages.)
 
I also learned that while the idea of paid family leave is very popular. The popularity drops significantly when people realize they will have to pay a tax of as little as 200 dollars per year. The only attempt to make this a federal plan was when there was some bipartisan support to allow people to delay their social security payout if they ever took any paid family leave. Most people don't like that idea, as we never know when if we might need to take SS at an earlier age than we had planned.

Exactly. People want it but don't want to pay for it.
 
If there is no vesting, then the Government would need to pitch in.

I think that the law should apply to everyone, including those who work for small businesses and that those businesses should be entitled to govt. support to cover the cost of the leave and any extra manpower needed to ensure operations of the business.
That'd be nice. It isn't like a company doesn't have 6 to 8 months of early notice!

Having governmental support for family leave and medical insurance that is universal and excellent really would help small businesses a great deal.
But that is Socialism and Socialism means people walking around looking like skeletons. The meme said so!

I grew up in a very conservative state in the Midwest, in farm country. I well remember the days when farmers went in together to purchase an expensive piece of equipment that benefited each of them but was unaffordable to any one of them. And how farmers routinely sent their sons to other farmers to help bring in crops or put up hay and got the extra help when needed as well. And especially when everybody pitched in to bring in crops and or plant when a farmer was too injured or too ill. This, I suppose, was a form of communism: everybody working together for the common good—with the twist that they all saw that they benefited from both individual freedom to make choices and from the joint ownership and shared labor as needed. I cannot imagine how coldly they would have looked at me I’d i had suggested that their community efforts in any way resembled communism. They would probably have never spoken to my father again, for raising such a daughter.

But that still is my vision of the ideal: people working and achieving individually and sharing resources, including labor as needed and as it made sense, with the shared sense that all benefited from stability and success.

This is not just a rural thing. We read about various kinds of communities reaching out to help a neighbor or a neighboring business or family or community in small towns and in big cities. We see faith communities opening their doors to other faiths who, for whatever reason have lost their place of worship. Towns send firefighters where needed. Hospitals send medical staff, food and clothing drives are organized and shelter is found for families facing disasters. Usually these efforts work best when they are more local—which is a sound argument for not concentrating resources in too few and distant locations.
 
I also learned that while the idea of paid family leave is very popular. The popularity drops significantly when people realize they will have to pay a tax of as little as 200 dollars per year. The only attempt to make this a federal plan was when there was some bipartisan support to allow people to delay their social security payout if they ever took any paid family leave. Most people don't like that idea, as we never know when if we might need to take SS at an earlier age than we had planned.

Exactly. People want it but don't want to pay for it.

There is truth in this, and it's typically American, I think. But elsewhere too, here for instance, where a wise person recently said that British people want a Scandinavian public health service at American prices.

The Scandinavians pulled off a good trick. They managed to get people to more or less willingly contribute more to society at large. And it seemed to work pretty well, for quite a long time, and still does, relative to other countries, even if not as much as previously, for a variety of reasons.
 
The downside of this is that it will make employers less likely to hire reproductive-age women.

Of course a great solution to that is to offer paternity leave to match it.
 
The downside of this is that it will make employers less likely to hire reproductive-age women.

Yup. That's why almost no women of reproductive age are employed in Europe or Australasia. :rolleyes:

Oddly enough, observation trumps theory every time. So every one of your theories that flies in the face of the reality in other parts of the world that have implemented the policies you theorise to be unworkable, is bunk.

No matter how much you feel like they are reasonable and logical.

The flaw this time is your missing the idea that both mother and father should get paid parental leave. So this proposal should, by your logic, make employers less likely to hire reproductive age people of either gender. Leaving them with a fucking HUGE labour shortage. Unless they are a lot smarter than you think.

My only caveat to that is that as far as I am aware, it is still overwhelmingly women who actually take parental leave, even where men have the option. I could be wrong. It probably differs country to country. I believe it was the case in Western Europe, but I am not sure how up to date I am now.

I suppose we could go mandatory, as Toni is suggesting, but I'm not sure about that. I think some Scandinavian countries have at least come very close to this.

I hate to say it, but if my company had forced me to go on paternity leave, I would have quit. I'd start a new company, or join someone else. I'm addicted to work. I wouldn't be able to take it. I love kids. I take kids skiing, hiking, or biking every weekend. But I couldn't sit around the house during the week. Would drive me crazy.
 
The downside of this is that it will make employers less likely to hire reproductive-age women.

Of course a great solution to that is to offer paternity leave to match it.

Why do you all keep bringing up maternity leave when family leave covers all kinds of family problems? Sick parents, sick spouses, sick children or even an extended need to recover from your own illness are almost always included in family leave benefits.
 
The downside of this is that it will make employers less likely to hire reproductive-age women.

Of course a great solution to that is to offer paternity leave to match it.

Why do you all keep bringing up maternity leave when family leave covers all kinds of family problems? Sick parents, sick spouses, sick children or even an extended need to recover from your own illness are almost always included in family leave benefits.

The difference is that family leave is a benefit; forced paternity leave is a punishment. Just kidding!
 
The downside of this is that it will make employers less likely to hire reproductive-age women.

Of course a great solution to that is to offer paternity leave to match it.

Why do you all keep bringing up maternity leave when family leave covers all kinds of family problems? Sick parents, sick spouses, sick children or even an extended need to recover from your own illness are almost always included in family leave benefits.

Because this was in a response in the context of "offering time to raise infant children will hurt employability of women".

Your comment seems in very bad faith.
 
Why do you all keep bringing up maternity leave when family leave covers all kinds of family problems? Sick parents, sick spouses, sick children or even an extended need to recover from your own illness are almost always included in family leave benefits.

Because this was in a response in the context of "offering time to raise infant children will hurt employability of women".

Your comment seems in very bad faith.

I really don't think that sohy's comment was in bad faith. I've always found her to be very straightforward and honest in her posts.

But her response does open up the fact that statistically speaking, it is mostly women who take leave to care for others. I think a lot of this is due to the fact that generally, speaking, women earn less than men do and so, generally, their income is more 'expendable.' Given that FMLA is unpaid, this is important. It is easier to lose some of the smaller wages than the larger ones, economically speaking.

The cultural norm is that women take off time to have babies (or are unemployed or underemployed or take less paying positions), as a matter of biology but also that women take time off to care for sick and injured children, spouses, other family members due to their 'nurturing nature.' While it may be true that women are more likely to take time off to care for family members as needed, it is not a given that this is because it is their nature, or because it is societal expectations placed upon them. It is also not clear whether women choose jobs with greater flexibility in order to be able to address these kinds of needs because that's what they actually want or whether that's because that's what's expected of them, or whether that's because of unnecessary hurdles placed in their paths when they choose to work in a more male dominated and more rigid work environment. (I'm not saying that all male dominated work environments are more rigid. I'm saying that those are two situations that can be less attractive for women to choose to work in those fields/workplaces.)

My personal opinion is that a 4 day work week (with 7.5 or 8 hrs being the length of a work day) is better for the work/life balance of all persons, married or single, parents or childless. I've thought that parents of young children (at least through age 5 and possibly longer) should each work 3/4 time--maybe 30 hours a week, This would allow both parents to be actively involved in their children's lives, would allow each to continue to progress in their careers without penalty caused by biology or societal expectations, and would allow both parents to have the social outlets that work can provide--and still give them some work/life balance.

People who are able to have a good work/life balance tend to be sicker less, and to require less time off to care for themselves or other family members or situations that arise as a matter of course. They tend to be more loyal to their employers and when they know that they get flexibility as they need it, they are more likely to be flexible and to pitch in more when others need more. They are happier and less stressed out--so more likely to get needed sleep and exercise and less likely to overeat. .

A 30-32 hr work week would mitigate or remove the career stigma of parenthood and frankly serves everyone well as sooner or later, we are all likely to need time to care for someone we love--and to be cared for by a loved one. _
 
Why do you all keep bringing up maternity leave when family leave covers all kinds of family problems? Sick parents, sick spouses, sick children or even an extended need to recover from your own illness are almost always included in family leave benefits.

Because this was in a response in the context of "offering time to raise infant children will hurt employability of women".

Your comment seems in very bad faith.

I really don't think that sohy's comment was in bad faith. I've always found her to be very straightforward and honest in her posts.

But her response does open up the fact that statistically speaking, it is mostly women who take leave to care for others. I think a lot of this is due to the fact that generally, speaking, women earn less than men do and so, generally, their income is more 'expendable.' Given that FMLA is unpaid, this is important. It is easier to lose some of the smaller wages than the larger ones, economically speaking.

The cultural norm is that women take off time to have babies (or are unemployed or underemployed or take less paying positions), as a matter of biology but also that women take time off to care for sick and injured children, spouses, other family members due to their 'nurturing nature.' While it may be true that women are more likely to take time off to care for family members as needed, it is not a given that this is because it is their nature, or because it is societal expectations placed upon them. It is also not clear whether women choose jobs with greater flexibility in order to be able to address these kinds of needs because that's what they actually want or whether that's because that's what's expected of them, or whether that's because of unnecessary hurdles placed in their paths when they choose to work in a more male dominated and more rigid work environment. (I'm not saying that all male dominated work environments are more rigid. I'm saying that those are two situations that can be less attractive for women to choose to work in those fields/workplaces.)

My personal opinion is that a 4 day work week (with 7.5 or 8 hrs being the length of a work day) is better for the work/life balance of all persons, married or single, parents or childless. I've thought that parents of young children (at least through age 5 and possibly longer) should each work 3/4 time--maybe 30 hours a week, This would allow both parents to be actively involved in their children's lives, would allow each to continue to progress in their careers without penalty caused by biology or societal expectations, and would allow both parents to have the social outlets that work can provide--and still give them some work/life balance.

People who are able to have a good work/life balance tend to be sicker less, and to require less time off to care for themselves or other family members or situations that arise as a matter of course. They tend to be more loyal to their employers and when they know that they get flexibility as they need it, they are more likely to be flexible and to pitch in more when others need more. They are happier and less stressed out--so more likely to get needed sleep and exercise and less likely to overeat. .

A 30-32 hr work week would mitigate or remove the career stigma of parenthood and frankly serves everyone well as sooner or later, we are all likely to need time to care for someone we love--and to be cared for by a loved one. _

For me, the only thing that would create this issue is the fact that my workplace won't give me time to do so, whereas they would of I was a woman.

SoHy's comment was in an exchange, paraphrased:
"Parents need medical leave to provide good futures for their children"
"This would make women less desirable for employment"
"Then give it to dad's too, so the calculus doesn't change"
"Why are you talking about maternity leave?!?'

There was a clear effort to derail a perfectly viable thread of conversation about a particular aspect of family leave: parental leave. It deserves talking about, as it's the most common form of family leave.

The cultural Norm is maintained through the fact that no matter how much father's want to be there, they are not given the opportunity, causing a chicken/egg cultural forcing.

If men have as much legal right to look after their children as men, there will be less excuse to underpay women.

My point is that paternal leave, offered in an egalitarian way, benefits literally everyone involved, from the mother who is less locked into "traditional motherhood" to the employer who is less motivated to underpay women for the risk of them being forced into "traditional motherhood" to the father who actually gets to spend the time with their children that is denied them in favor of "traditional motherhood", and gives the child the benefit of having the nurturing and bonding experiences with both parents, as opposed to the results of "traditional motherhood".

As to what effects work weeks have, there are certainly needs for a reform to a 4 day work week, and I stress for all the employees in my department, who are my de-facto direct reports, and even my own management, that their work/life balance is more important than perceptions that they are "needed here" all the time. As such, we have less overtime, and we all end up accomplishing MORE.
 
I really don't think that sohy's comment was in bad faith. I've always found her to be very straightforward and honest in her posts.

But her response does open up the fact that statistically speaking, it is mostly women who take leave to care for others. I think a lot of this is due to the fact that generally, speaking, women earn less than men do and so, generally, their income is more 'expendable.' Given that FMLA is unpaid, this is important. It is easier to lose some of the smaller wages than the larger ones, economically speaking.

The cultural norm is that women take off time to have babies (or are unemployed or underemployed or take less paying positions), as a matter of biology but also that women take time off to care for sick and injured children, spouses, other family members due to their 'nurturing nature.' While it may be true that women are more likely to take time off to care for family members as needed, it is not a given that this is because it is their nature, or because it is societal expectations placed upon them. It is also not clear whether women choose jobs with greater flexibility in order to be able to address these kinds of needs because that's what they actually want or whether that's because that's what's expected of them, or whether that's because of unnecessary hurdles placed in their paths when they choose to work in a more male dominated and more rigid work environment. (I'm not saying that all male dominated work environments are more rigid. I'm saying that those are two situations that can be less attractive for women to choose to work in those fields/workplaces.)

My personal opinion is that a 4 day work week (with 7.5 or 8 hrs being the length of a work day) is better for the work/life balance of all persons, married or single, parents or childless. I've thought that parents of young children (at least through age 5 and possibly longer) should each work 3/4 time--maybe 30 hours a week, This would allow both parents to be actively involved in their children's lives, would allow each to continue to progress in their careers without penalty caused by biology or societal expectations, and would allow both parents to have the social outlets that work can provide--and still give them some work/life balance.

People who are able to have a good work/life balance tend to be sicker less, and to require less time off to care for themselves or other family members or situations that arise as a matter of course. They tend to be more loyal to their employers and when they know that they get flexibility as they need it, they are more likely to be flexible and to pitch in more when others need more. They are happier and less stressed out--so more likely to get needed sleep and exercise and less likely to overeat. .

A 30-32 hr work week would mitigate or remove the career stigma of parenthood and frankly serves everyone well as sooner or later, we are all likely to need time to care for someone we love--and to be cared for by a loved one. _

For me, the only thing that would create this issue is the fact that my workplace won't give me time to do so, whereas they would of I was a woman.

SoHy's comment was in an exchange, paraphrased:
"Parents need medical leave to provide good futures for their children"
"This would make women less desirable for employment"
"Then give it to dad's too, so the calculus doesn't change"
"Why are you talking about maternity leave?!?'

There was a clear effort to derail a perfectly viable thread of conversation about a particular aspect of family leave: parental leave. It deserves talking about, as it's the most common form of family leave.

The cultural Norm is maintained through the fact that no matter how much father's want to be there, they are not given the opportunity, causing a chicken/egg cultural forcing.

If men have as much legal right to look after their children as men, there will be less excuse to underpay women.

My point is that paternal leave, offered in an egalitarian way, benefits literally everyone involved, from the mother who is less locked into "traditional motherhood" to the employer who is less motivated to underpay women for the risk of them being forced into "traditional motherhood" to the father who actually gets to spend the time with their children that is denied them in favor of "traditional motherhood", and gives the child the benefit of having the nurturing and bonding experiences with both parents, as opposed to the results of "traditional motherhood".

As to what effects work weeks have, there are certainly needs for a reform to a 4 day work week, and I stress for all the employees in my department, who are my de-facto direct reports, and even my own management, that their work/life balance is more important than perceptions that they are "needed here" all the time. As such, we have less overtime, and we all end up accomplishing MORE.

I still disagree re: sohy’s Intentions.

I think that mostly we agree. The part that I wrestle with is that pregnant peoplereally do need tome to recover from the demands of pregnancy and childbirth, and possibly surgery. I was fortunate to have easy, event free pregnancies but I know a lot of healthy young women with high levels of education, loving and supportive partners and community as well as great employment and great healthcare and insurance yet still experienced life threatening conditions during pregnancy or delivery or postpartum complications. They did everything ‘right’ and still had complications. One lost a child due to stillbirth. The baby had been apparently fine two days earlier at her check up. Health care was at an extremely highly rated and highly regarded health care provider. We know that in the US, women have much higher rates of pregnancy related complications, including death and that we have much poorer outcomes for infants—including death. There is a lot of talk that this is because of drug or other substance abuse but there are a lot of healthy, well educated, well employed, medically sophisticated women who are experiencing dangerous and sometimes fatal complications.

Knowing this and knowing what it took for me to ‘bounce back’ from my pregnancies, I find it hard it to believe that women who give birth don’t need and deserve more tine to recover than do men whose bodies do not face the same or equivalent challenges. However I do really suport the idea of fathers being equal parents and being around to provide support and assistance to the parent who gave birth—as well
As parenting the new baby and adjusting to their own new role.

This is simply a conflict for me. I know men who have been fully engaged as parents and partners—and those who were not—quite dramatically so.
 
A 30-32 hr work week would mitigate or remove the career stigma of parenthood and frankly serves everyone well as sooner or later, we are all likely to need time to care for someone we love--and to be cared for by a loved one. _

A workweek like this would mean probably something akin to a 30% pay cut across society. Is that what you want?
 
A 30-32 hr work week would mitigate or remove the career stigma of parenthood and frankly serves everyone well as sooner or later, we are all likely to need time to care for someone we love--and to be cared for by a loved one. _

A workweek like this would mean probably something akin to a 30% pay cut across society. Is that what you want?

It shouldn’t but I suppose that reducing the work week by 25% would translate to a 30% payout in the minds of some managers. Which is why we need workplace laws and protections and unions.

A shift in the workweek would likely see an increase in employment opportunities which would be especially beneficial to young people. Yes, that is something I’d like to see.

Suppose we are talking about a small business that is open 50 hrs a week plus another 30 hrs of pre and work hours. If health care costs were not a n issue for employer or employee, they should be a able to pay employees more and hire more employees. Employees would likely be less stressed, more productive and need fewer unscheduled sick and personal days—resulting in additional savings for the employer.
 
A 30-32 hr work week would mitigate or remove the career stigma of parenthood and frankly serves everyone well as sooner or later, we are all likely to need time to care for someone we love--and to be cared for by a loved one. _

A workweek like this would mean probably something akin to a 30% pay cut across society. Is that what you want?

It shouldn’t but I suppose that reducing the work week by 25% would translate to a 30% payout in the minds of some managers. Which is why we need workplace laws and protections and unions.

I'm not saying the managers are misbehaving. Your 30 hour workweek didn't cut what they pay for your benefits. Unless you have multiple shifts sharing tools/space it didn't cut that overhead, either. 30% is probably being optimistic.

Suppose we are talking about a small business that is open 50 hrs a week plus another 30 hrs of pre and work hours. If health care costs were not a n issue for employer or employee, they should be a able to pay employees more and hire more employees. Employees would likely be less stressed, more productive and need fewer unscheduled sick and personal days—resulting in additional savings for the employer.

The costs won't just magically disappear. UHC means higher taxes. Whether it comes off your gross or as taxes it still hits your take-home.
 
It shouldn’t but I suppose that reducing the work week by 25% would translate to a 30% payout in the minds of some managers. Which is why we need workplace laws and protections and unions.

I'm not saying the managers are misbehaving. Your 30 hour workweek didn't cut what they pay for your benefits. Unless you have multiple shifts sharing tools/space it didn't cut that overhead, either. 30% is probably being optimistic.
Show the math or STFU.

UHC means higher taxes. Whether it comes off your gross or as taxes it still hits your take-home.
That is based on your unspecified assumptions. It is possible that UHC might increase take home pay.
 
Show the math or STFU.

UHC means higher taxes. Whether it comes off your gross or as taxes it still hits your take-home.
That is based on your unspecified assumptions. It is possible that UHC might increase take home pay.

All this higher/lower bullshit is bullshit. A for-profit healthcare system is MORE EXPENSIVE BY DEFINITION than a non-profit one. The argument that the increase in the number of users will make it a higher gross cost system, is only valid if one completely discounts the vast cost - financial and societal - that comes from dealing with the consequences of millions being uninsured. And it would be a BENEFIT to all, so some cost should be considered tolerable. As it is, I see no convincing argument that UHC is unattainable or unsustainable. Indeed:

UHC.jpg
 
Show the math or STFU.

Try using a bit of common sense. Do you really think there isn't a substantial cost to a company to have an employee??

UHC means higher taxes. Whether it comes off your gross or as taxes it still hits your take-home.
That is based on your unspecified assumptions. It is possible that UHC might increase take home pay.

She was figuring UHC would remove the cost of health insurance from the equation. Who pays it doesn't change the fact that it has to be paid for.
 
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