Fat-shaming, fat acceptance, and 'body diversity'.

[Jimmy Higgins]

There's nothing wrong with dairy. I've studied nutrition at university. The world needs less bullshit diet advice from people who don't really know what they're talking about. There's also nothing wrong with eating fat or fatty foods. It's more complicated than that. Without knowing how Metaphor eats, sleeps, works today, it's impossible to offer any specific tips that you know will help. Great... dairy worked for you. Also... whether you're vegan or not is irrelevant as far as health is concerned. Vegans can eat just as badly as people who eat meat. It's more complicated than that. Also... all natural whole grain food tend to be better than processed foods. But doesn't have to be. It's more complicated than that. It's hard to find a more processed product than whey on the market. Super healthy. Also made from dairy.

There may be something wrong with dairy. It may contribute to prostate and ovarian cancer. My information is sourced. I did not make it up. While there is nothing wrong with fat, I'd venture to guess most of us get plenty and may be able to make due with a little less. I do not know how Metaphor eats but it did work for me. It also seems to work for Asia. Being vegan most certainly can be relevant as one is more likely to consume much more leafy greens and beans to source their calcium and vitamin K. This along with exercise and sunshine have kept me well. I do take vitamin D in the winter.

While this article does mostly concern itself with bone health, there is some very good information in it: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-full-story/

There are two major lies in the food industry. The importance of dairy and fruit juice is healthy.

 

[barbos]

Yeah, "fat is beautiful" is bullshit. Also they appear to promote "fat is healthy" as well, which is bullshit too. There is that fat (really obese) "supermodel" or something, Yes, she says she is healthy, but she is in her late .... 20s. I would like to see her saying that in her 40s.

 

[none]

Yeah, "fat is beautiful" is bullshit. Also they appear to promote "fat is healthy" as well, which is bullshit too. There is that fat (really obese) "supermodel" or something, Yes, she says she is healthy, but she is in her late .... 20s. I would like to see her saying that in her 40s.

I just noticed this thread is in the p
I thought it was in advice...
anyways barbos, what is the justification for an obese person to feel bad because they are obese?
I mean more than not I would like to be a few pounds lighter but I choose not to do what is necessary for me to be a few pounds lighter, why should I feel bad about it?
isn't this like a victimless crime issue?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Metaphor

As a woman who has spent the majority of her life either overweight or obese, I know where you are. At my heaviest I was over 300 lbs and wore an American size 28W. I now wear a misses size 12 and am actually considered smaller than average in comparison to the rest of the US female population.

If you want to know how I lost the weight, I will tell you, if you don't, I won't. But I will tell you this. You have got to make peace with the fat. From what I'm reading, you have not done that. Until you make peace with the fat, you can't make peace with reasons for the fat and you will yo-yo until you die. And you will never be happy.

Let me know what you want you to do. Feel free to pm me if that is more comfortable for you.

Thank you for your expression of support (and to all the others who have done the same).

Athena, I'm not really sure what it would mean to make peace with the fat. Can you elaborate?

are you prepared to be this size for the rest of your life? You have to accept yourself and the fat as you are and it is. You are going to have to take stock of who you are and how you are going to choose to see yourself and be seen by others. Think about like this. If you are afraid of the dark and you don't want to be afraid anymore, you have to accept being in the dark and looking at the dark and not the monsters in your head. If you are like me, right now your perception of your obesity is probably more of what you think it is than what it really is.

 

[barbos]

Yeah, "fat is beautiful" is bullshit. Also they appear to promote "fat is healthy" as well, which is bullshit too. There is that fat (really obese) "supermodel" or something, Yes, she says she is healthy, but she is in her late .... 20s. I would like to see her saying that in her 40s.

I just noticed this thread is in the p
I thought it was in advice...
anyways barbos, what is the justification for an obese person to feel bad because they are obese?

None, but what is the justification for an obese person to feel good? Cause that's what some of these people are promoting.

 

[none]

I just noticed this thread is in the p
I thought it was in advice...
anyways barbos, what is the justification for an obese person to feel bad because they are obese?

None, but what is the justification for an obese person to feel good? Cause that's what some of these people are promoting.

Because feeling good about yourself is healthy and normal, even if you are a dick to others.

 

[Toni]

Aside from my family and friends (which includes some 4 footed members), there are two great loves of my life: biology and art.

To be more specific, human biology.

And I love portraits of all kinds more than any other subject matter in art, bar nothing.

If I had all of the time in the world between when I was born and the end of time, I don't think that I would come close to coming to the end of finding things about the human body that are spectacular, wondrous, beautiful. Miraculous. From the cellular level to tissues to organs to systems to the entire human body. I am stunned in ways that have nothing at all to do with how any part of the human body looks. I love the design, the way it all functions, the way it works together. The ways it breaks down break my heart and stir my brain to find ways to stave off the destruction and heal damage.

I love art museums but I also love Grey's Anatomy (not the TV show).

The beauty of Da Vinci's works, and those of Michelangelo, Botticelli, Raphael fill me with such joy, such inspiration. Such love.

I confess I hate tattoos. Oh, I've learned to tolerate them but whenever I see someone with body art, I think that it is as much a tragedy is if someone spray painted on Michelangelo's David. Just wrong to ruin something that was already perfect.

Oh, I also just love to watch people: how they move, how they interact with one another, with the world around them, the play of light on faces, the play of emotions on faces. And what makes them tick? I mean: why do people do the things they do? I'm not talking about the atrocities but: why do people create art? Music? Poetry? Why do they love? Invent? Why do humans value beauty? Why do some things seem more beautiful than others?

So, you all knew I was weird, right? But hey, we all have our things.

My thing is: You're beautiful. Every last one of you. Fat, thin, old, young, scarred and broken down or fresh faced and dewy with hope. Has not a damn thing to do with what you weigh or how much hair you have. I think you're all miracles and works of art. I wish we'd all treat ourselves like that: like the miracles of design and engineering that we are. We're fabulous.

I think that it is really hard to find love, to love or to be loved, if we cannot find some little spark of that beauty inside ourselves. No matter how perfectly our bodies and faces fit any particular cultural ideal of beauty (and all of you know that what is perceived as beautiful is very much dependent upon culture, right? Some cultures celebrate girth. Some find beauty in a gap between the two front teeth that most westerners would have fixed at the nearest orthodontists. And so on.) Or how far our bodies and faces diverge from some artificial 'ideal.'

But then there is healthy. It is perfectly possible to be quite healthy and to have a BMI significantly over what the AMA recognizes as healthy. It is perfectly possible to be extremely unhealthy and to fit into a size 0 or 00 or 4 or 2.

I think we all need to learn to love ourselves enough to be willing to do what we need to do to be a little bit more healthy.

Which probably means spending less screen time. And more time moving, for starters. At least for most of us. Most of us Americans could learn a bit (ok, a lot) about portion size.

If we don't love ourselves at least a little bit, we will keep beating ourselves up inside so that no matter what our waist size or how smooth our skin or luxurious our hair, it will be really hard to find anyone who will love us. And if we do, our self loathing will make it really hard to recognize love when it comes around. Anyone who tries to love us will have a hard time seeing us, or reaching us through our own self loathing.

So let's be kind to ourselves, just a little bit. Maybe start by learning something about our bodies. Maybe start with the heart, which is a fabulous organ, simple and elegant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart

 

[gmbteach]

http://www.raw-food-health.net/Iceberg-Lettuce-Nutrition.html

FYI, 100 calories of iceburg lettuce is roughly 1.6 pounds of lettuce. (1.3 pounds of romaine)

Vitamin A, C, even per 100 calories is much much worse for iceburg lettuce. Both lettuces are poor sources of potassium and niacin. Comment remains correct.

Have you considered that I may not LIKE Spinach etc? That I happen to LIKE Iceberg Lettuce? Yes, taste is an important factor.

TBH, what I have found so far in your posts on this thread is a 'higher than thou' attitude which I am finding quite offensive. Your posts are making me feel quite berated, and non-supportive, and I am offended.

 

[bigfield]

I am going to start with a confession.

I am morbidly obese. I've been a long time member of talkfreethought and its previous iterations, but most people on the board probably don't know anything about my body size. And, now that you know, it probably changes your perception of me. Well, it has to change your perception by definition because you now have more information. But I think the new perception might be more negative.

I occassionally read posts on feministing and other feminist sites, and I've noticed a very strong push towards celebrating 'body diversity' and 'beauty at any size' and other similar sentiments.

Fat-shaming somebody is basically dehumanising, callous, and generally mean-spirited. It also doesn't work for fatties (I've decided to reclaim the language) like myself in losing weight. If bullying overweight children worked, no child in any playground would be overweight ever.

But. But. I do not like being fat. I don't want to celebrate it. I don't think it's a desirable thing to be, and I certainly don't think it's attractive, on persons of either gender but especially on men. My perspective is as a gay man, and I'd be utterly turned off if I had a partner with a body like mine. Apart from some people (I'd say less than 1% of the population) who are actually sexually attracted to fatties, it's clear that the aesthetic and sexual preference for the vast majority of the population is for individuals with BMIs of around 19-23 (towards the lower end of the range for shorter people and towards the higher end of the range for taller people).

Or, to put it another way: many of the people in my life are fat, and they would look better and feel better if they were not.

If the feminist push were merely to decry fat-shaming, I'd understand it. I endured endless torment growing up over being overweight and it did nada to help me. But many feminists want models and TV shows and movies to show people with all kinds of body sizes.

I don't want a half-naked obese man in ads for aftershave. That doesn't sell product and it never will. I want to see the beautiful people, not more people like myself.

I also watch a lot of trashy British reality television, where obese people blame their fatness on completely nonsensical causes, like 'healthy food costs too much'. No, it doesn't. A kilogram of potato crisps costs several times the price of a kilo of fruit or vegetables. You don't need more money to consume fewer calories. You need less money.

The fat-is-beautiful nonsense provokes no more than an eye-roll from me.

The most sinister aspect of Fat Feminism is the idea that obesity is healthy. Obesity is a medical condition that makes people ill in myriad ways and reduces one's quality of life.

Imagine a fat-acceptance doctor! Fucking negligence is what that would entail.

 

[barbos]

None, but what is the justification for an obese person to feel good? Cause that's what some of these people are promoting.

Because feeling good about yourself is healthy and normal, even if you are a dick to others.

You make a good argument for alcoholism, drugs and overeating.

 

[none]

Because feeling good about yourself is healthy and normal, even if you are a dick to others.

You make a good argument for alcoholism, drugs and overeating.

From what I know those things can contribute to obesity.
People should feel good about themselves despite their flaws.
Overeating, maybe people shouldn't do it because it isn't healthy.
I am sure you'd make a good argument for binge and purge after all the objective is your ideal of an ideal BMI, but I could be wrong it might be more about caloric intake for you.
Seems to me overeating is a disorder but people live with it everyday and sometimes it adds up to obesity.
Eating causes a chemical reaction in the brain that is euphoric that isn't a bad thing, but that is what I know.
You want to criminalize eating because it alters the state of consciousness? make your good argument.
Medication that keeps people functional can cause weight gain either by making people feel hungry or changing their metabolism.
Then there are those whose metabolism causes them to be obese and even if they take medication to control their metabolism the decreased metabolism that causes weight gain can still be present.
But this for you is all about eating or is this about ideal BMI, I am not sure.

 

[DrZoidberg]

There's nothing wrong with dairy. I've studied nutrition at university. The world needs less bullshit diet advice from people who don't really know what they're talking about. There's also nothing wrong with eating fat or fatty foods. It's more complicated than that. Without knowing how Metaphor eats, sleeps, works today, it's impossible to offer any specific tips that you know will help. Great... dairy worked for you. Also... whether you're vegan or not is irrelevant as far as health is concerned. Vegans can eat just as badly as people who eat meat. It's more complicated than that. Also... all natural whole grain food tend to be better than processed foods. But doesn't have to be. It's more complicated than that. It's hard to find a more processed product than whey on the market. Super healthy. Also made from dairy.

There may be something wrong with dairy. It may contribute to prostate and ovarian cancer. My information is sourced. I did not make it up. While there is nothing wrong with fat, I'd venture to guess most of us get plenty and may be able to make due with a little less. I do not know how Metaphor eats but it did work for me. It also seems to work for Asia. Being vegan most certainly can be relevant as one is more likely to consume much more leafy greens and beans to source their calcium and vitamin K. This along with exercise and sunshine have kept me well. I do take vitamin D in the winter.

While this article does mostly concern itself with bone health, there is some very good information in it: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-full-story/

I never said you get strong bones from dairy. Nothing in that article was news to me, and I don't challenge anything in it. If you want strong bones eat plenty of leafy green vegetables. And "may contribute to ... cancer" are bullshit phrases in this field. Everything may contribute to cancer. That is just a fact of life. And since we, for ethical reasons, can't force-feed humans and then open them up to take a look, the error margin for this kind of research is massive. Dairy is fine. It's still not good to overdo, due to everybody being lactose intolerant to a point. There's a degree when our bodies can't handle all the dairy. But it's not good to overdo any food. A varied diet is the key no matter what your diet is.

Potato chips and french fries are also vegan. As is a diet of sandwiches with humus. Fried vegetables can soak up more fat than the equivalent fried meat. You got to know what you're doing, or just going vegan will not make your life healthier. Whether or not your diet is vegan, vegetarian or eat meat is completely and utterly irrelevant. Both can be perfect and optimal, and both can be a disaster.

If you don't diet intelligently healthy bodies down-regulate activity when calorie intake drops, ie you become tired and any minor work becomes a chore. Working out at this point feels like torture. This is the point when the resolve of people on dumb diets break. It is basically a form of mental torture. So while fats contain a lot of calories, they do even out the blood sugar allowing you to work-out more. I recommend reading up on how body-builders diet. When they're shredding they're working out extremely hard while on calorie restricted diets. I've seen body-builders drink linseed oil straight from bottles while dieting. Come to think of it... as I have, once upon a time. It's the same mechanic for why sugar is so unhealthy and fattening. Not only does it contain a lot of calories. A diet with (even fairly small amounts of) sugar will lead to lethargy. So you become fat and lazy. A diet with consistently high levels of fat avoids this. You don't need to do it this way. The same effect can be achieved with high fibre levels in the diet as well. There's many ways to reach the same goal. But you got to know what you're doing.

Unless you fix the entire pattern of your eating just avoiding something, or switching out something won't do shit. Human instinct is strong. I'm guessing that is part of the explanation to why vegan diet worked for you. Since it was such a monumental shift in how you eat, it allowed you to break all your old (bad) patterns at once. But you can do the same thing with a meat or vegetarian diet to.

Btw, I was raised vegetarian in a hippie home. I'm an excellent vegan chef. I know how cook it well and healthy. But I'm not a vegetarian today. I eat a highly varied diet.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

FYI, 100 calories of iceburg lettuce is roughly 1.6 pounds of lettuce. (1.3 pounds of romaine)

Vitamin A, C, even per 100 calories is much much worse for iceburg lettuce. Both lettuces are poor sources of potassium and niacin. Comment remains correct.

Have you considered that I may not LIKE Spinach etc? That I happen to LIKE Iceberg Lettuce? Yes, taste is an important factor.

Iceberg lettuce doesn't have a taste... other than water. It has a crunchy consistency.

TBH, what I have found so far in your posts on this thread is a 'higher than thou' attitude which I am finding quite offensive.

Seriously? Saying spinach is better to eat than iceberg lettuce makes me higher than thou?

Your posts are making me feel quite berated, and non-supportive, and I am offended.

You are joking right?

 

[dismal]

Stop the lettuce-shaming Jimmy.

 

[gmbteach]

Have you considered that I may not LIKE Spinach etc? That I happen to LIKE Iceberg Lettuce? Yes, taste is an important factor.

Iceberg lettuce doesn't have a taste... other than water. It has a crunchy consistency.

TBH, what I have found so far in your posts on this thread is a 'higher than thou' attitude which I am finding quite offensive.

Seriously? Saying spinach is better to eat than iceberg lettuce makes me higher than thou?

Your posts are making me feel quite berated, and non-supportive, and I am offended.

You are joking right?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Your post here is no different to others you gave made in this thread. I, personally, find them condescending.

No, I do not like spinach. What I do like about lettuce is that, for me, it enhances the flavours of other salad ingredients.

And no, I am not joking. Please consider how you are speaking to us, and the tone of your comments. This is supposed to be a supportiveness thread, and yet, I, for one, do feel attacked due to my choices in food preferences.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Iceberg lettuce doesn't have a taste... other than water. It has a crunchy consistency.

TBH, what I have found so far in your posts on this thread is a 'higher than thou' attitude which I am finding quite offensive.

Seriously? Saying spinach is better to eat than iceberg lettuce makes me higher than thou?

Your posts are making me feel quite berated, and non-supportive, and I am offended.

You are joking right?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Your post here is no different to others you gave made in this thread. I, personally, find them condescending.

What part, that spinach is a better food than iceberg lettuce? That portion size control is important? That my body shape is a result of arduous exercise and eating choices I made, not "being lucky"? The part that indicated that portion control is a choice and a body's metabolism is less of a choice?

Which part exactly is condescending?

 

[Warpoet]

First off, credit to the OP for his willingness to make an uncomfortable public admission. I wish more people had the courage to talk this frankly about things.

That said, this seems to me like it is largely a non-issue. The thrust of it seems to focus on attractiveness, and self-delusion as to how traits (like obesity) affect it. But so what? People do this all time. Take weight out of the equation entirely; there are lots of people who are unattractive for other reasons, and may have even fewer options to change it. Should they tell themselves that they're hideous and unlikely to find companionship? Is that what their friends and family should tell them? There are definitely cases where self-delusion is dangerous (my employees won't mind if I make them all work overtime, my husband is an abusive alcoholic but it's not a big deal, et cetera). But I don't see perceptions of personal attractiveness as one of them.

As for the media, fuck the media. It is toxic in most respects, body image being just one of them. I can't even count all the attractive women I've known who were convinced that they were fat and ugly because of the photoshopped crap they see on magazine covers, or T.V. shows that make out slightly overweight characters to be morbidly obese, et cetera. I think some lowering of the absurd standards it sets would be positive.

I have no dog in this fight. Obesity is not at all a concern for me and probably never will be. I think I do OK in terms of overall looks. But I just don't see the issue here. There is a health aspect at play, but that doesn't really seem to be what this is about. I will have to second what others have said: make peace with it even if you want to change it. And fuck what anyone else has to say about it.

 

[thebeave]

Iceberg lettuce doesn't have a taste... other than water. It has a crunchy consistency.

TBH, what I have found so far in your posts on this thread is a 'higher than thou' attitude which I am finding quite offensive.

Seriously? Saying spinach is better to eat than iceberg lettuce makes me higher than thou?

Your posts are making me feel quite berated, and non-supportive, and I am offended.

You are joking right?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Your post here is no different to others you gave made in this thread. I, personally, find them condescending.

No, I do not like spinach. What I do like about lettuce is that, for me, it enhances the flavours of other salad ingredients.

And no, I am not joking. Please consider how you are speaking to us, and the tone of your comments. This is supposed to be a supportiveness thread, and yet, I, for one, do feel attacked due to my choices in food preferences.

If opinionated discussions about lettuce and spinach offend you, you probably shouldn't be hanging out in this forum. There is a support forum in The Lounge for the kind of discussions you are probably interested in. As Obi Wan Kenobi said once when he visited this forum:

"Political Discussions on TFT. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As for the media, fuck the media. It is toxic in most respects, body image being just one of them. I can't even count all the attractive women I've known who were convinced that they were fat and ugly because of the photoshopped crap they see on magazine covers, or T.V. shows that make out slightly overweight characters to be morbidly obese, et cetera. I think some lowering of the absurd standards it sets would be positive.

While photoshopping in magazines is decently documented, what might not be as well known is the "photoshopping" done in movies there days. People probably don't realize most of the stuff they see in Magazines and Films may not actually represent anything remotely realistic about looks of the people they are seeing.

Then take the endless onslaught from media about how you don't look good enough and it can be ovewhelming. Diets, pills, makeup, all designed to make women self conscious about their looks in general. And for men, there isn't a product out there today that isn't sold as a sex aid.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Things are being said in this thread that do not need to be said. This thread ain't about lettuce, ain't about dairy, and most importantly it ain't about y'all. it ain't about how lucky you are, how perfectly disciplined and healthy you are, how you will never have to worry about getting obese.

Now I know you all mean well but what you say isn't necessarily what people hear. And what is heard is the important thing. Telling someone how disciplined and wise you are can be heard by the people listening as how undisciplined and foolish they are. And that just make a body want wanna talk to our good friend Sara Lee.

A fellow poster needs help, not testimonials to our own greatness.

Let us help him.