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Feminist complains about women getting workplace entitlements

Right. And this 'benefit' highlights the differing expectations of employees as well. Women are assumed to wish to a)become parents and b)take time off for parental leave. No such assumptions are made of men. It is hard to believe that this mindset does not lead to unequal treatment of employees based upon assumptions about their reproductive strategies and career plans.

My wife is considering taking a career break to have children. We tried to work out what would happen if we took equal time off for childcare, and it turns out we can't afford it. Despite earning roughly the same money, she gets 6 months maternity leave, and I get 2-3 weeks, which I have to negotiate for. She's going to have to be forced into the childcare role, and me into the absent breadwinner role, regardless of our own desires in the matter.

^^^
THIS

A case study in the need to revamp family laws to give fathers equal options, offer paid leave to both parents and for more than a few weeks.

We should work to live, not live to work. And where you work should not dictate your reproduction decisions.
 
A case study in the need to revamp family laws to give fathers equal options, offer paid leave to both parents and for more than a few weeks.

We should work to live, not live to work. And where you work should not dictate your reproduction decisions.

Cynically, I see no reason why this is going to change as long as companies continue to value the work more than they value the worker.
 
Right. And this 'benefit' highlights the differing expectations of employees as well. Women are assumed to wish to a)become parents and b)take time off for parental leave. No such assumptions are made of men. It is hard to believe that this mindset does not lead to unequal treatment of employees based upon assumptions about their reproductive strategies and career plans.
That assumption is always there, and if I'm honest, I can't envision any scenario where that assumption goes away. Biology is a fact that isn't going to just disappear. Unless there's a profound and fundamental shift in our entire social structure, something that has neither men nor women working at all until their forties, I don't see that the assumptions that women will wish to bear children and take time off to parent is going to disappear.

It might be mitigated somewhat with a shift in mores to allow men to become stay-at-home fathers more acceptably, but I think that will be a very slow process. We've got several thousand years worth of gender-roles to overcome. Maybe several hundred thousand years, I'm not entirely sure of the timescale.

Either way it leaves us in a conundrum: there exist differing expectations for women than for men, and part of that differing expectation is driven by differing biology. I wish that I had a solution.
 
Cynically, I see no reason why this is going to change as long as companies continue to value the work more than they value the worker.
Equally cynically, I see no reason why companies would begin to "value the worker" when workers are interchangeable for the vast majority of job duties. It is certainly not nice to hear, and it's not a very friendly thing to say by any means. But what makes this specific jug of milk better and more valuable than this other jug of milk?
 
That assumption is always there, and if I'm honest, I can't envision any scenario where that assumption goes away. Biology is a fact that isn't going to just disappear. Unless there's a profound and fundamental shift in our entire social structure, something that has neither men nor women working at all until their forties, I don't see that the assumptions that women will wish to bear children and take time off to parent is going to disappear.

It might be mitigated somewhat with a shift in mores to allow men to become stay-at-home fathers more acceptably, but I think that will be a very slow process. We've got several thousand years worth of gender-roles to overcome. Maybe several hundred thousand years, I'm not entirely sure of the timescale.

Either way it leaves us in a conundrum: there exist differing expectations for women than for men, and part of that differing expectation is driven by differing biology. I wish that I had a solution.

Are you discounting daycare? You seem to assume that a woman needs to quit working in order to raise her children. It is possible that a woman can return to work after a standard maternity leave of three months and then continue to put in 40 hour work weeks. Furthermore, outside of breast feeding there isn't technically anything a man couldn't do to raise his child.
 
Cynically, I see no reason why this is going to change as long as companies continue to value the work more than they value the worker.
Equally cynically, I see no reason why companies would begin to "value the worker" when workers are interchangeable for the vast majority of job duties. It is certainly not nice to hear, and it's not a very friendly thing to say by any means. But what makes this specific jug of milk better and more valuable than this other jug of milk?


Well, workers can be interchangeable but still be valued as working human beings who have needs beyond simply earning profits for the company. Whether this is a sustainable approach or not, I cannot say, but I suspect not without a significant cultural change in how humans treat and consider each other.
 
Cynically, I see no reason why this is going to change as long as companies continue to value the work more than they value the worker.
Equally cynically, I see no reason why companies would begin to "value the worker" when workers are interchangeable for the vast majority of job duties. It is certainly not nice to hear, and it's not a very friendly thing to say by any means. But what makes this specific jug of milk better and more valuable than this other jug of milk?

Jesus Christ.
 
That assumption is always there, and if I'm honest, I can't envision any scenario where that assumption goes away. Biology is a fact that isn't going to just disappear. Unless there's a profound and fundamental shift in our entire social structure, something that has neither men nor women working at all until their forties, I don't see that the assumptions that women will wish to bear children and take time off to parent is going to disappear.

It might be mitigated somewhat with a shift in mores to allow men to become stay-at-home fathers more acceptably, but I think that will be a very slow process. We've got several thousand years worth of gender-roles to overcome. Maybe several hundred thousand years, I'm not entirely sure of the timescale.

Either way it leaves us in a conundrum: there exist differing expectations for women than for men, and part of that differing expectation is driven by differing biology. I wish that I had a solution.

Are you discounting daycare? You seem to assume that a woman needs to quit working in order to raise her children. It is possible that a woman can return to work after a standard maternity leave of three months and then continue to put in 40 hour work weeks. Furthermore, outside of breast feeding there isn't technically anything a man couldn't do to raise his child.

I think you must not have read my prior posts on this subject. I will give you the short version here, and leave it to you to look up the rest on your own.

I am not discounting daycare, however, in many work situations conflicts arise. Not all schedules are always perfectly stable, but daycares generally expect a fixed pick-up time. Conflicts arise between project that require overtime and children that require attention and assistance outside of work hours. Children get sick and need a parent to stay home, and it is most often the woman who chooses to do so.

Beyond that, what a man is capable of doing and what most men actually choose to do are not the same thing.

- - - Updated - - -

Equally cynically, I see no reason why companies would begin to "value the worker" when workers are interchangeable for the vast majority of job duties. It is certainly not nice to hear, and it's not a very friendly thing to say by any means. But what makes this specific jug of milk better and more valuable than this other jug of milk?


Well, workers can be interchangeable but still be valued as working human beings who have needs beyond simply earning profits for the company. Whether this is a sustainable approach or not, I cannot say, but I suspect not without a significant cultural change in how humans treat and consider each other.

True. That sort of cultural change is slow.
 
I am not discounting daycare, however, in many work situations conflicts arise. Not all schedules are always perfectly stable, but daycares generally expect a fixed pick-up time. Conflicts arise between project that require overtime and children that require attention and assistance outside of work hours.

There's nothing in this paragraph that can't apply to men as well.

Children get sick and need a parent to stay home, and it is most often the woman who chooses to do so.

It may often be the woman's choice, but it need not be and it isn't always. My point is that there's no reason to deny a man a benefit that a woman is getting simply because most men won't need or use it. It should be an individual's choice not an assumed position based on the average.

Beyond that, what a man is capable of doing and what most men actually choose to do are not the same thing.

That may be true, but that is not a biological issue. I know that many men have the expectation that their wives will be doing all the childrearing and the housekeeping and there are many women who seem to expect this too and accept that this is their role in a marriage. I surely can't judge ever woman's decisions about choosing their mate, but perhaps women should be less accepting of this and men should be expected to do an equal share of the work.
 
There's nothing in this paragraph that can't apply to men as well.

Children get sick and need a parent to stay home, and it is most often the woman who chooses to do so.

It may often be the woman's choice, but it need not be and it isn't always. My point is that there's no reason to deny a man a benefit that a woman is getting simply because most men won't need or use it. It should be an individual's choice not an assumed position based on the average.

Beyond that, what a man is capable of doing and what most men actually choose to do are not the same thing.

That may be true, but that is not a biological issue. I know that many men have the expectation that their wives will be doing all the childrearing and the housekeeping and there are many women who seem to expect this too and accept that this is their role in a marriage. I surely can't judge ever woman's decisions about choosing their mate, but perhaps women should be less accepting of this and men should be expected to do an equal share of the work.

Shadowy Man, I think we have some confusion here. Please allow me to lay out a few items for consideration.

The only biological issue under consideration is that eggs are limited and have an "expiration date"; sperm cells are not limited and are freshly produced during the lifespan of the man. Thus there is no actual need to freeze sperm, there is only a need to freeze eggs, if delayed childbearing is desired.

There are two distinct social issues in our discussion, which I believe are being inadvertently conflated.

One of these is the gender roles of men and women in child-rearing from the perspective of family. In this, you and I are in agreement: men should be expected to take on a larger role in the home, and they should be expected to take on an equal role in child rearing, outside of breastfeeding. But that is a question for women and men to make between themselves, and a cultural shift that needs to occur at large.

The other issue is that of the disparate pay and career progression that women face in the workplace. Even when pay scales and time on the job have been normalized, we see persistent slower progression of women in their careers, with fewer women in management and executive positions. In part, this is due to the fact that women face a choice between continued career dedication and family life. The prime period for childbearing is also a key period for upward mobility in careers. Dedicated time on the job during that period from the mid twenties to the mid thirties is critical for career advancement. Thus women are faced with a choice between being dedicated to their careers or having a family. From an employer's perspective, women are more likely to bear children than men are :)D). And for married employees who already have children, women are more likely to choose their children over their career when faced with a choice, and in many cases it really is one or the other.

Employers can't insist that male spouses of their female employees pick up the slack around the house. That would be overstepping their role as employer in a profound manner. The most they can do is provide for equal parental leave... and in the case of Apple, offer an alternative that gives some female employees a third option that was previously unavailable to them.

That option does nothing to address the social issue from the perspective of family roles. But it might address the issue of disparate career advancement.

It might not. There is no guarantee. As has already been mentioned, there are risks. And there's certainly a risk of the gesture being interpreted as Apple pressuring women into not having children. I personally think that pressure already exists, and this is alleviating that pressure. This is how I, as a professional woman, choose to interpret this policy.
 
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