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Fine-Tuning Argument vs Argument From Miracles

I just skyped Occam. Turns out there's no more need for argumentation. Not ontological, not first cause, not teleological. Everything you experience makes more sense when attributed to dumb, god-less natural forces. Everything points to thousands of religions being just plain made up by couch potato ancients (and modern pretenders like Joseph Smith, Ann Lee, L Ron Hubbard, Rev. Moon, the Bogwhan, and Charles Manson.)
 
Of the two, the "argument from miracles" is the correct one. I.e., the miracles of Jesus -- not "proof" of anything, but a strong indicator that there's an Entity with Power who/which offers us eternal life.

All the rest is ---

is --

interesting.
 
Like my aunt's "Miracle Car". She owned a Lincoln town car and insisted that when she drove it, she always made green lights -- it was a miracle how that car got her through the city. Doesn't that make you suck in your breath and whisper a li'l prayer??
 
ideologyhunter said:
Like my aunt's "Miracle Car". She owned a Lincoln town car and insisted that when she drove it, she always made green lights -- it was a miracle how that car got her through the city. Doesn't that make you suck in your breath and whisper a li'l prayer??
Click to expand...

Did anyone else confirm her conclusion that the car had this power?

Any serious "argument from miracles" has to include a consideration of whether the miracles really happened, the reasons or evidence offered, witnesses, etc.
 
The problem with miracles is that they don't happen as promised. Mark 11, John 14:12-14 et al.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

So to get around this, a lot of Xians tell us the age of miracles ended in the days of Christ.
Then people tell us about the miracles Christians get today.

"Aunt Edna got sick and we prayed and she got well. Praise the Lord!"
"Uncle Luke got sick and we prayed and he died. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Praise the Lord!"
"Some times when we pray, God says no. Praise the Lord."

Real Christians handle snakes. And speak in tongues.
 
As far as I know, no statistical analysis was done on my aunt's car. She drove conservatively, so I think she probably drove slowly toward red traffic lights, slow enough to avoid stopping at the light. That was probably the Big Miracle. (She wasn't born again -- she had joined some offshoot of Scientology; this was in Miami in the mid-70s. It wasn't exactly L Ron's group, but it was kooky -- they met in some non-churchy hall with no particular cultural aura. There was a strong group feeling and a lot of glad-handing and the singing of positive-thinking songs that were a cross between whatever genres you have in 'Kum Ba Ya' and 'Tomorrow' from Annie. Folk primitivism and nursing home pop, I guess.)
 
Lumpenproletariat said:
ideologyhunter said:
Like my aunt's "Miracle Car". She owned a Lincoln town car and insisted that when she drove it, she always made green lights -- it was a miracle how that car got her through the city. Doesn't that make you suck in your breath and whisper a li'l prayer??
Click to expand...

Did anyone else confirm her conclusion that the car had this power?

Any serious "argument from miracles" has to include a consideration of whether the miracles really happened, the reasons or evidence offered, witnesses, etc.
Click to expand...
February 22, 1980 in Lake Placid and May 2, 2015 in Leceister. Both things happened, lots of people witnessed it.
 
Lumpenproletariat said:
ideologyhunter said:
Like my aunt's "Miracle Car". She owned a Lincoln town car and insisted that when she drove it, she always made green lights -- it was a miracle how that car got her through the city. Doesn't that make you suck in your breath and whisper a li'l prayer??
Click to expand...

Did anyone else confirm her conclusion that the car had this power?

Any serious "argument from miracles" has to include a consideration of whether the miracles really happened, the reasons or evidence offered, witnesses, etc.
Click to expand...
My auto has that power too but it isn't always miraculous. But sometimes (like Jesus only occasionally healing a leaper, not all leapers) my auto will perform the miracle of allowing me to drive completely through town without having to stop, catching every traffic light green.
 
Cheerful Charlie said:
The problem with miracles is that they don't happen as promised. Mark 11, John 14:12-14 et al.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

So to get around this, a lot of Xians tell us the age of miracles ended in the days of Christ.
Then people tell us about the miracles Christians get today.

"Aunt Edna got sick and we prayed and she got well. Praise the Lord!"
"Uncle Luke got sick and we prayed and he died. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Praise the Lord!"
"Some times when we pray, God says no. Praise the Lord."

Real Christians handle snakes. And speak in tongues.
Click to expand...



Ultimately ...it IS appointed that man must die ONCE, all must give up the ways of the flesh , physical or emotional... the easily enticed corruptions as according to the biblical narrative. My understanding is; there are several levels in this undersanding , simply because we are all variably , in various ways, seeing from different angles or perspectives, as the bible portrays for example portraying :shedding the nature of the flesh ... to be "reborn" , to not be dictated by the flesh / desires which ignores many aspects of morality (As according to GOD ).
 
I have just finished a bottle of wine (by myself ) and ...currently on another bottle (edit" finshed another bottle I can handle more " lol). My heart is gladdened. I say this because otherwise , I probably would not admit I actually care for you.

I consider you to be my friends / comrades , individuals , having the same potential (despite beig included among the lost sheep) to find YOUR way according to a particuoar understamding or self knowing of a realization i.e. the ethics,.... the teachings of Jesus!!!

Honestly I have thought or rather, ....I had hoped my interpretation was wrong, even as a Christian ...for example, regarding my interpretaion , which could be wrong...meaning ... the noton of hell is ... not literally actually true as according to the bible +_ by a partricular "common" understandind. ....a different contexual analogeous aspect of the bible..[/I]. because .... I know many I love, who are opposed to GOD or ignore HIS existence.


Personally I would ask GOD for signs . Not for me but for non believers.

Edit: This is not normal for me to be gladdened by God's gift , I was celebrating someones bithday! I know, I know ...drunkards will not inherit the earth .. I'm not drunk !
 
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Well, I’m only on my first beer, so I just think you’re nice. :)
 
Uh... was that just an inebriated proselytism we had here, on Tee-Eff-Tee-Dot-Org????? That's a first. Somehow, I'm not persuaded.
 
Learner said:
I have just finished a bottle of wine (by myself ) and ...currently on another bottle (edit" finshed another bottle I can handle more " lol). My heart is gladdened. I say this because otherwise , I probably would not admit I actually care for you.

I consider you to be my friends / comrades , individuals , having the same potential (despite beig included among the lost sheep) to find YOUR way according to a particuoar understamding or self knowing of a realization i.e. the ethics,.... the teachings of Jesus!!!

Honestly I have thought or rather, ....I had hoped my interpretation was wrong, even as a Christian ...for example, regarding my interpretaion , which could be wrong...meaning ... the noton of hell is ... not literally actually true as according to the bible +_ by a partricular "common" understandind. ....a different contexual analogeous aspect of the bible..[/I]. because .... I know many I love, who are opposed to GOD or ignore HIS existence.


Personally I would ask GOD for signs . Not for me but for non believers.

Edit: This is not normal for me to be gladdened by God's gift , I was celebrating someones bithday! I know, I know ...drunkards will not inherit the earth .. I'm not drunk !
Click to expand...

We get the sentiment--and I, personally, would love it if there were in fact an omni-capable father figure who planned everything and punishes the wicked, etc.etc.,etc.--but to ironically quote the Bible, there comes a time in every child's life to put away childish things.

Let Go; Let God equally applies to belief in gods.
 
Koyaanisqatsi said:
Learner said:
I have just finished a bottle of wine (by myself ) and ...currently on another bottle (edit" finshed another bottle I can handle more " lol). My heart is gladdened. I say this because otherwise , I probably would not admit I actually care for you.

I consider you to be my friends / comrades , individuals , having the same potential (despite beig included among the lost sheep) to find YOUR way according to a particuoar understamding or self knowing of a realization i.e. the ethics,.... the teachings of Jesus!!!

Honestly I have thought or rather, ....I had hoped my interpretation was wrong, even as a Christian ...for example, regarding my interpretaion , which could be wrong...meaning ... the noton of hell is ... not literally actually true as according to the bible +_ by a partricular "common" understandind. ....a different contexual analogeous aspect of the bible..[/I]. because .... I know many I love, who are opposed to GOD or ignore HIS existence.


Personally I would ask GOD for signs . Not for me but for non believers.

Edit: This is not normal for me to be gladdened by God's gift , I was celebrating someones bithday! I know, I know ...drunkards will not inherit the earth .. I'm not drunk !
Click to expand...

We get the sentiment--and I, personally, would love it if there were in fact an omni-capable father figure who planned everything and punishes the wicked, etc.etc.,etc.--but to ironically quote the Bible, there comes a time in every child's life to put away childish things.

Let Go; Let God equally applies to belief in gods.
Click to expand...

Someone should tell the Millennials, they're keen on adulting.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Lumpenproletariat said:
ideologyhunter said:
Like my aunt's "Miracle Car". She owned a Lincoln town car and insisted that when she drove it, she always made green lights -- it was a miracle how that car got her through the city. Doesn't that make you suck in your breath and whisper a li'l prayer??
Click to expand...

Did anyone else confirm her conclusion that the car had this power?

Any serious "argument from miracles" has to include a consideration of whether the miracles really happened, the reasons or evidence offered, witnesses, etc.
Click to expand...
February 22, 1980 in Lake Placid and May 2, 2015 in Leceister. Both things happened, lots of people witnessed it.
Click to expand...

What happened? someone raised from the dead?

If the evidence and the sources about it attest that it did happen and was not a hoax, then isn't it likely true? Or should the dogma that miracles cannot happen overrule the evidence?
 
Lumpenproletariat said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
February 22, 1980 in Lake Placid and May 2, 2015 in Leceister. Both things happened, lots of people witnessed it.
Click to expand...

What happened? someone raised from the dead?

If the evidence and the sources about it attest that it did happen and was not a hoax, then isn't it likely true?
Click to expand...

Why would claims that something isn't a hoax just make it "likely true"? Bigfoot isn't a hoax. There, I just claimed it, so, that makes it "likely true"?

Or should the dogma that miracles cannot happen overrule the evidence?
Click to expand...

Apples and oranges. The "evidence" is unsubstantiated anecdote. I saw your mother turn into Adolf Hitler. I just made a truth claim. Does that make it "likely true" that your mother did in fact turn into Adolf Hitler?

The answer to that question is, "No, it does in no way make it likely true." And that fact has nothing to do with a presumption that "miracles cannot happen" and everything to do with the fact that anyone can claim any idiotic thing they want to claim. Making a claim is not proving a claim.

When someone reports a crime they witnessed, the police do not just go, "Ok, the fact that you said it means we grabbed the guy and threw him directly into jail for the rest of his life."

The claim is made and then an investigation takes place, where the police try to find corroborating physical evidence of the claim. Without corroborating physical evidence, the suspect is released, because everyone (normally) understands that making a claim is not the same thing as proving a claim.
 
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