fine tuning argument

[Lion IRC]

...I hope that you do realize that this is a great example of a Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.
[snip]
... "I believe because I believe".

I'm sorry.
You're going to have to show me EXACTLY where I have claimed X therefore Y in my post.

It's not so much that we've observed previous or different universes, but rather that we can tell the difference between finely tuned, life-permitting conditions and their alternatives. ...

This is Paley's pocketwatch argument, and fails for the same reason - he claims the existence of the watch proves the creator while the existence of the rock does not, while simultaneously claiming the rock was also created...

The only thing I have claimed is that we (some of us) are able to observe that there is an apparent difference between fine tuning and the absence of fine tuning - between life permitting and life prohibiting.

Are you really going to say it's all just an illusion and that Paley's watch can be ignored because humans look for patterns and the appearence of design is some sort of trompe L'oeil?

By the way, atrib, the theist who holds to teleology can quite comfortably argue that the sand was also created for a purpose - and that does not detract from the additional purpose the Creator has for the use of that sand. (Potter/Clay)

The bible says humans are made of dirt/dust AND that God created that very same dirt/dust.

 

[skepticalbip]

I'm sorry.
You're going to have to show me EXACTLY where I have claimed X therefore Y in my post.

Are you not saying that you can identify design therefore god?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Are you really going to say it's all just an illusion and that Paley's watch can be ignored because humans look for patterns and the appearence of design is some sort of trompe L'oeil?

No, Paley's watch should be ignored because it's a scam.

At first, we determine that the watch is an artifact because the watch is nothing like nature. It cannot be natural because it's clearly designed.
Then we determine that the universe is an artifact because nature is exactly like the watch. Both cannot be true.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating_machine

In 1802 William Paley formulated the first known teleological argument depicting machines producing other machines,^[8] suggesting that the question of who originally made a watch was rendered moot if it were demonstrated that the watch was able to manufacture a copy of itself.^[9]

If you consider DNA, RNA and proteins a type of machine, machines create machines all the time.

 

[Lion IRC]

I'm sorry.
You're going to have to show me EXACTLY where I have claimed X therefore Y in my post.

Are you not saying that you can identify design therefore god?

No, I'm saying I can identify (apparent) design in contrast to the lack of design surrounding it.

Who says the apparent existence of design requires a Designer?

 

[bilby]

Are you not saying that you can identify design therefore god?

No, I'm saying I can identify (apparent) design in contrast to the lack of design surrounding it.

So you are saying that it is obvious to you that the majority of the universe is NOT designed?

 

[Lion IRC]

So you are saying that I'm saying that you're wrong in saying that I'm saying that it is not obvious to me that the majority of the universe isnt not designed?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

No, I'm saying I can identify (apparent) design in contrast to the lack of design surrounding it.

So you are saying that it is obvious to you that the majority of the universe is NOT designed?

I liked the non-response that followed.

But what I think he's saying is that only the designer isn't designed. Everything else was designed to appear either designed or undesigned, all proceeding from something that has design but was unequivocally undesigned.

Clearer now?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

God punishing animals with horrendous parasites because man ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil has to be one of the most insane religious ideas ever.

Not so much seeing it is religious fan-fic, not in the actual story of The Fall.

It makes the oh so good god out to be a sadistic monsnter of overwhelming evil. but, hey, don't let me stop the christians from making that claim.

Yahweh is a monster. In the old days, you didn't want some liberal pansy god in charge of your destiny. That leads to you getting wiped out or enslaved. Granted, they were wiped out and slaved on some noted occasions, but that was man's fault, not god's.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Are you not saying that you can identify design therefore god?

No, I'm saying I can identify (apparent) design in contrast to the lack of design surrounding it.

I love apparent design!

 

[GenesisNemesis]

No, I'm saying I can identify (apparent) design in contrast to the lack of design surrounding it.

I love apparent design!

Well you know, tornadoes and hurricanes are to punish sinners, so...

 

[braces_for_impact]

Besides all the standard responses to the fine tuning argument, I feel that the argument itself ignores one glaringly obvious fact: Life is here despite the universe trying to kill it at every opportunity. Proponents of the argument are so fond of citing certain attributes of the universe that if changed slightly, would not allow our type of life to exist.

Look, the universe is really one big, long mutha fuckin' deathtrap from hell. Black holes, supernovae, gamma ray bursts, the distances between stars, cosmic radiation, asteroids, solar wind, space being a vacuum, solar flares, weather phenomena, tectonic activity, disease, temperature. Randomly toss a human naked anywhere on the planet and the odds are he'll have to struggle to survive, if he survives at all. We have a universe itself with a lifespan of trillions and trillions of years. During that time either occasionally or rarely life will gain a foothold for the briefest of times before disappearing again. 99 percent of all species that ever lived is now extinct. The ones that are here mostly survive by feeding off the others that survived. Eventually the universe will enter it's own heat death, and there will be nothing at all. Not one god damn bacterium or virus. Not even evidence of life once existing. Zero, nada, zilch.

May as well claim that NASA clean rooms were "fine tuned" for these little microbes.

The length of time life has been present within the universe is incredibly infinitesimal compared to the age the universe itself will be, until time itself grinds to a halt. This isn't fine tuning. This is pure luck that happens within a blink of an eye.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Besides all the standard responses to the fine tuning argument, I feel that the argument itself ignores one glaringly obvious fact: Life is here despite the universe trying to kill it at every opportunity. Proponents of the argument are so fond of citing certain attributes of the universe that if changed slightly, would not allow our type of life to exist.

Look, the universe is really one big, long mutha fuckin' deathtrap from hell. Black holes, supernovae, gamma ray bursts, the distances between stars, cosmic radiation, asteroids, solar wind, space being a vacuum, solar flares, weather phenomena, tectonic activity, disease, temperature. Randomly toss a human naked anywhere on the planet and the odds are he'll have to struggle to survive, if he survives at all. We have a universe itself with a lifespan of trillions and trillions of years. During that time either occasionally or rarely life will gain a foothold for the briefest of times before disappearing again. 99 percent of all species that ever lived is now extinct. The ones that are here mostly survive by feeding off the others that survived. Eventually the universe will enter it's own heat death, and there will be nothing at all. Not one god damn bacterium or virus. Not even evidence of life once existing. Zero, nada, zilch.

May as well claim that NASA clean rooms were "fine tuned" for these little microbes.

The length of time life has been present within the universe is incredibly infinitesimal compared to the age the universe itself will be, until time itself grinds to a halt. This isn't fine tuning. This is pure luck that happens within a blink of an eye.

Luck or something was bound to happen. Life starting as a process of replication. Nothing intelligent, just that if something fucked up when replicating and that fuck up helped, the fuck up carried on (Version 1.1). A billion years is a long time. 13 billion is even longer. Life is rare, but when it gets established, it gets into everything!

Seems like an inevitability given the right circumstances, and based on the latest data for NASA, there may be billions of habitable planets in the Milky Way alone!

 

[atrib]

By the way, atrib, the theist who holds to teleology can quite comfortably argue that the sand was also created for a purpose - and that does not detract from the additional purpose the Creator has for the use of that sand. (Potter/Clay)

The bible says humans are made of dirt/dust AND that God created that very same dirt/dust.

Wait a minute. You just told us that the sand dune does NOT appear to be designed, in contrast to the sand sculpture, which appears to have been made by man. Now you're saying the dune is also designed? You are either confused, or trapped by your own words.

The sand/dust is the product of weathering of rock through natural processes. Ultimately, all matter in the universe other than Hydrogen gas was created through the process of nuclear fusion in stars, or through the collision of neutron stars (elements heavier than Iron). God didn't make it.

Also, can you explain why the universe appears designed to you? You have asserted that it does, but you are yet to explain why.

 

[Kharakov]

Randomly toss a human naked anywhere on the planet and the odds are he'll have to struggle to survive, if he survives at all.

I've noticed that tossing them on planets seems to alter their functioning. They seem fine, make lots of noise and stuff, and then all of the sudden they stop making noises. Still attempting to figure out what is happening, so need to keep breeding them and throwing them at planets.

 

[blastula]

Another thing about the FTA, it implies that God is subservient to physical parameters - that his design is at the mercy of already present physical limitations. If God is the decider of all parameters, then tuning by God makes no sense.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Another thing about the FTA, it implies that God is subservient to physical parameters - that his design is at the mercy of already present physical limitations. If God is the decider of all parameters, then tuning by God makes no sense.

Good point. It's the same with creationists going on and on about how wonderful our bodies are and how intricately and perfectly they work. Never mind the fact that they cut and break easily, get diseased and tend to die. If I were inventing bodies I could do a lot better job of it with less than one human lifetime of experience and observation.

 

[Lion IRC]

So you are saying that it is obvious to you that the majority of the universe is NOT designed?

I liked the non-response that followed.

I've already answered that - citing the bible. (Potter/clay)
The designer/inventer can create a universe wherein life is deliberately intended to arise in only one small part of that universe. That doesn't negate overall fine-tuning. On the contrary, it amplifies the appearence of fine-tuning.

There seems to be some underlying counter-apologetic being claimed here that the sand sculpture isn't really finely tuned because the sand itself is ALSO intended/designed to exist and therefore there's no fine tuning distinction - it's all or nothing.

But that's a weird counter-argument against teleology when you use the very existence of the (entire) universe itself - all that 'sand' - to argue that the resulting sand sculptures aren't unique.

 

[Lion IRC]

Another thing about the FTA, it implies that God is subservient to physical parameters - that his design is at the mercy of already present physical limitations.

Can you justify this claim?

If God is the decider of all parameters...

This IS the claim made by the biblical theist. Where is the limitation?

 

[Lion IRC]

Wait a minute. You just told us that the sand dune does NOT appear to be designed, in contrast to the sand sculpture,

That's right. The sand sculpture is obviously designed for a purpose. I don't know how you can fail to see the difference between these categories - intentional and unintentional.
Whatever other function the existence of sand may (also) serve to provide, that doesn't invalidate fine-tuning.

...Now you're saying the dune is also designed?

I am? Where did I say that?
I thought I emphasised the difference between sand dune and sand sculpture.

...The sand/dust is the product of weathering of rock through natural processes.

Natural processes. Yep.
I don't regard fine-tuning as unnatural. Free will, volition, intent, creative design...agent/mechanism. What's unnatural?

... Ultimately, all matter in the universe other than Hydrogen gas was created through the process of nuclear fusion in stars, or through the collision of neutron stars (elements heavier than Iron)

Let's focus on your claim about "matter". Isn't that a bit of an oversimplification?
You don't get away with words like "ultimately" until you have resolved the prior cause of the so-called Big Bang

...God didn't make it.

Did too!

...Also, can you explain why the universe appears designed to you? You have asserted that it does, but you are yet to explain why.

It appears designed because I am a human and humans seek patterns - like intelligible, persistent, predictable laws of physics, mathematical equations, rules of logic, etc.

...and the only way you can recognize patterns is by the simultaneous ability to recognize their absence. (Think SETI project. Or the human genome/DNA)