Five Race Issues in the US That Need to be Acknowledged.

[Derec]

But but but: according to the absolute numbers from your table, the white/white murders and the black/black murders show that more whites are murdered and more whites are the offenders compared with blacks.

Only because there are many more whites in the US than blacks. That's like the bogus statistic making rounds a while ago that "proved" that whites were more likely to be on welfare than blacks. They also compared absolute numbers rather than rates. Let me put it to you another way. You have two cities, Atown and Bville. Atown has a population of 1,000,000 and 15 murders happened last year. Bville has a population of 100,000 and 10 murders happened last year. Which city has the bigger murder problem?

How can black/black violence be a bigger problem when black/black accounts for a smaller number of homicides?

How can New Orleans have a bigger murder problem than New York City?

If you want to say that proportionally speaking, violence takes a bigger toll on blacks than whites, I will agree with you.

That is the other side of the coin, but it is funny how you acknowledge the importance of per capita numbers for victims but not perpetrators. That's quite an inconsistency.

Then take a look at the gender differences: males are 9 times more likely to commit murder but are only about 2.5 times as likely to be victims.

A discussion for another day perhaps. But one interesting fact from the data is that when women murder, their victims are men three times more often than women. When men murder, they murder other men more than twice as likely as they murder women. Thus women are the only group in this table that preferentially murders members of another group rather than their own.

 

[Derec]

Actually you did. You responded to "Stop this ridiculous narrative that black Americans are somehow more violent or more destructive than other races." with "Nonsense. It's not a myth, it's evident from crime data."

Blacks in the US are certainly more violent right now. That doesn't mean that they are inherently more violent.

Are you seriously claiming that those wars killed and harmed as many people as the wars by white people?

Well you can kill more people with rifles and tanks than you can with arrows and spears. What does any of this war derail have to do with the murder rate in the US?

As to your comment about blacks participation in the World Wars, they were a tiny fraction of the combatants, so it really was ludicrous to bring it up. Are you really that desperate to denigrate black people?

Are you that desperate to denigrate white people that you brought up world wars into an unrelated discussion.

No, but it does show the ridiculousness of your cherry-picked "data".

It's not cherry-picked and it is talking about the very same thing as that web site. It is Rashid who is cherry-picking data, not I.

 

[Derec]

How do you count white on white crime Derec?

Should be treated the same as any other.

Does the Madoff scandal count?

Since we are talking about violent crime and specifically murder, obviously not.

And the school shootings?

While tragic and hyped up by the media, they are a statistical drop in the bucket.

What about environmental crimes that poison thousands?

I would think they are in their own category.

But why are you so adamant to deny that there is a much higher rate of murders by blacks than by whites?

I with a gun can rob you of the money on you and possibly your life. I with a computer can rob you along with thousands, even millions and take away all your futures and the futures of generations to come.

And one is a violent crime and the other one isn't. One can result in a murder, the other one can't. Are you really not understanding why those two are in separate categories.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But but but: according to the absolute numbers from your table, the white/white murders and the black/black murders show that more whites are murdered and more whites are the offenders compared with blacks. How can black/black violence be a bigger problem when black/black accounts for a smaller number of homicides?

If you want to say that proportionally speaking, violence takes a bigger toll on blacks than whites, I will agree with you.

Then take a look at the gender differences: males are 9 times more likely to commit murder but are only about 2.5 times as likely to be victims.

Reading comprehension fail: He explained why black-on-black violence is more of an issue. What's important is the per-capita rate, not the total number.

The fail comes when one realizes that this is an actual concern. That many groups exist out there to deal with gang violence.

 

[Derec]

The fail comes when one realizes that this is an actual concern. That many groups exist out there to deal with gang violence.

Which is admirable but does not defend the assertion that it is a "myth" that blacks are five times as likely to engage in murder than whites.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Should be treated the same as any other.

Does the Madoff scandal count?

Since we are talking about violent crime and specifically murder, obviously not.

And the school shootings?

While tragic and hyped up by the media, they are a statistical drop in the bucket.

What about environmental crimes that poison thousands?

I would think they are in their own category.

But why are you so adamant to deny that there is a much higher rate of murders by blacks than by whites?

I with a gun can rob you of the money on you and possibly your life. I with a computer can rob you along with thousands, even millions and take away all your futures and the futures of generations to come.

And one is a violent crime and the other one isn't. One can result in a murder, the other one can't. Are you really not understanding why those two are in separate categories.

So no, you don't count all white on white crime as white on white crime. And you don't think that decisions made by board rooms that kill thousands are violent.

Thank you.

Also thank you for your predictable evasion of the other four points. That is your M.O. Find the one point you think is the weakest or most easily muddled and just keep beating it even after it is dead.

Don't ever change.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The fail comes when one realizes that this is an actual concern. That many groups exist out there to deal with gang violence.

Which is admirable but does not defend the assertion that it is a "myth" that blacks are five times as likely to engage in murder than whites.

The myth is that no one allegedly knows or cares about inner-city violence, or that it goes unreported.

 

[Derec]

So no, you don't count all white on white crime as white on white crime.

No, I do not count all crime as violent crime.

And you don't think that decisions made by board rooms that kill thousands are violent.

I go by the FBI definition of violent crime. If those "boardroom decisions" result in "non-negligent manslaughter" they would count. Do you have any examples?

And what does that have to do with the denials of the fact that blacks are 5 times more likely to engage in murder than whites?

Also thank you for your predictable evasion of the other four points.

Which of your points have I evaded?

That is your M.O.

And your MO is to muddle the discussion of murders by bringing up completely unrelated things like "Madoff with your money" which fits nobody's definition of violent crime.

Find the one point you think is the weakest or most easily muddled and just keep beating it even after it is dead.

Nonsense. I dealt with all your points. I have to keep engaging with them because just like the pet shop owner you refuse to acknowledge they are as dead as the dead parrot.

Don't ever change.

Please change.

- - - Updated - - -

The myth is that no one allegedly knows or cares about inner-city violence, or that it goes unreported.

Now you are shifting the goalposts. That is not the "myth" challenged in the OP. And as we have seen from the discussion, there is only one verdict for their myth #4.

 

[NobleSavage]

I've always heard it as gang on gang crime. If two white men decide to duel I wouldn't want that in the crime stats.

 

[NobleSavage]

Should be treated the same as any other.

Since we are talking about violent crime and specifically murder, obviously not.

And the school shootings?

While tragic and hyped up by the media, they are a statistical drop in the bucket.

What about environmental crimes that poison thousands?

I would think they are in their own category.

But why are you so adamant to deny that there is a much higher rate of murders by blacks than by whites?

I with a gun can rob you of the money on you and possibly your life. I with a computer can rob you along with thousands, even millions and take away all your futures and the futures of generations to come.

And one is a violent crime and the other one isn't. One can result in a murder, the other one can't. Are you really not understanding why those two are in separate categories.

So no, you don't count all white on white crime as white on white crime. And you don't think that decisions made by board rooms that kill thousands are violent.

Thank you.

Also thank you for your predictable evasion of the other four points. That is your M.O. Find the one point you think is the weakest or most easily muddled and just keep beating it even after it is dead.

Don't ever change.

This is usually how those decisions are made in the board room:

Engineer: if we add xyz safety feature it will save 50 lives.

Lawyer: if we add a new safety feature we will have 50 new lawsuits.

Accountant: adding xyz safety feature will cost $10,000,000.

Marketing Director: if we add zyz safety feature we can sell 1,000,000 new units

Actuary: if we increase the cost. 500,000 people will buy our competitors product which will lead to 600 deaths.

Accountant: the cost of the lawsuits will be the same as the profit from new feature xyz.

Lawyer: if we don’t add the safety feature we won’t be sued

Accountant: we might be able to get a tax credit if we add xyz safety feature.

CEO: lets just add xyz safety feature to our high end line and see how it goes.


Headline: ABC Corp gives safety feature to the rich not the poor to make a profit off the government. Estimated 600 people will die.

 

[ronburgundy]

From the article after quoting statistics:

If black-on-black crime is an epidemic, then so is white-on-white crime and Latino-on-Latino crime. It is a fact and a reflection of our highly segregated society that the majority of murders in America are intra-racial.

Drop this myth. Stop this ridiculous narrative that black Americans are somehow more violent or more destructive than other races. It is a false, baseless, offensive, and destructive notion.

This quote shows some mind boggling ignorance by the author. First, the size of the ratio of intra over inter race violent crime rates is not the same for different racial groups. It is significantly higher for blacks, than whites or Latinos. In fact, for Latinos the rates are often very similar, meaning that they about as likely to be victimized by a black person as by a fellow latino. That is what this study done in L.A. showed, and yet it showed that blacks were 10 times more likely to be victimized by a black than a Latino. IOW, the relationships are not parallel, because blacks are far more likely to commit violent crimes in general. Thus, while other blacks are the most likely victims, people of all races are more likely to be victimized by a black person than black people are to be victimized by someone of another race. When inter-race violent crime does happen, it far more likely that the perp is black and the victim another race, than the other way around.
Also, blacks are 8 times more likely to commit a murder and 6 times more likely to be murdered than whites. Notice that the difference in their rate of being a murderer is 33% higher than in their rate of being a murder victim. Once again, this is because of their overall much higher likelihood of committing murders. This explains both why blacks are more likely to be murdered than others, but it also explains why blacks are even more likely to be a murderer than to be murdered, and why blacks are more likely to be the perp in inter-race crimes.

In sum, it is not a "myth" but a fact that 93% of blacks are murdered by blacks, but rather it is a myth that this is solely due to racial segregation which would require that this stat be identical for all other racial groups, and that there be equal overall crime rates among groups, and that perp-victim race be equally distributed in cases of inter-race crime. The data show that racial segregation matters, but so does race. It shows that although you are more likely to be victimized by those you are most surrounded by, and thus your own race, the more black people you are around, the more your overall odds of being victimized because of their 3-5 times higher likelihood of committing violent crimes. Why this is the case is an interesting and complex question, but the fact that it is the case is undeniable truth, not myth.

 

[laughing dog]

Blacks in the US are certainly more violent right now. That doesn't mean that they are inherently more violent.

Your claim is based on cherry-picked data.

Well you can kill more people with rifles and tanks than you can with arrows and spears. What does any of this war derail have to do with the murder rate in the US?

You're the one with murder rate derail.

Are you that desperate to denigrate white people that you brought up world wars into an unrelated discussion.

Violence against others includes violence in wars. It is intellectually dishonest to exclude data that rebuts one's point.

It's not cherry-picked and it is talking about the very same thing as that web site. It is Rashid who is cherry-picking data, not I.

I find itidifficult to believe you seriously do not understand "Stop this ridiculous narrative that black Americans are somehow more violent or more destructive than other races." As you admit, blacks are not inherently more violent that whites. Once one honestly looks at the entire picture, they are not even more violent than whites now.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Vast majority of murders are intraracial (similar percentage for blacks and whites) look at this table. The absolute numbers for black-on-black and white-on-white murders are about equal. However, since there are 5.2 times as many non-hispanic whites as there are non-hispanic blacks, the rate of black-on-black murders is 5 times higher than the rate of white-on-white murders, making the former a much bigger problem obviously.

What if you control for poverty? Is race really the issue making the difference?

 

[untermensche]

This is usually how those decisions are made in the board room:

Engineer: if we add xyz safety feature it will save 50 lives.

Lawyer: if we add a new safety feature we will have 50 new lawsuits.

Accountant: adding xyz safety feature will cost $10,000,000.

Marketing Director: if we add zyz safety feature we can sell 1,000,000 new units

Actuary: if we increase the cost. 500,000 people will buy our competitors product which will lead to 600 deaths.

Accountant: the cost of the lawsuits will be the same as the profit from new feature xyz.

Lawyer: if we don’t add the safety feature we won’t be sued

Accountant: we might be able to get a tax credit if we add xyz safety feature.

CEO: lets just add xyz safety feature to our high end line and see how it goes.


Headline: ABC Corp gives safety feature to the rich not the poor to make a profit off the government. Estimated 600 people will die.

That is not how the car manufacturers added safety features.

Ralph Nader wrote a book and spoke before Congress.

Then laws were passed to force car manufacturers to include safety features and make the cars less deadly.

The car manufacturers denied there was a problem and dragged their feet as hard as possible.

 

[ApostateAbe]

http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2014/12/04/five-race-issues-everyone-needs-to-acknowledge/35302

This list is not exhaustive, but if we expect to move forward as a country, here are five issues about race in America we need to acknowledge.

1. America has a prison problem, and race has a lot to do with it.
...
2. America has a police brutality problem, and race has a lot to do with it.
...
3. America has a racism ignorance problem.
...
4. America embraces the myth of “black-on-black crime.”
...
5. America embraces the myth of “black rioting.”

The claimed refutation of Point #4 is an abuse of statistics, appropriately sourcing Huffington Post. The claimed myth is not effectively tested by comparing the portion of white-on-white crimes over all crimes on whites with the portion of black-on-black crimes over all crimes on blacks. With those statistics, you can prove that criminals of all races tend not to cross race lines in equal proportion. If the claimed myth is, "Black people should care more about black-on-black crime than white-on-black crime," then we test it by comparing those two values. And what do you expect to find? I don't need to tell you.

The abused statistics may also mislead a reader to think that crime rates are equal among whites and blacks. They are not. Blacks commit crimes (against any race) apparently at a rate many times higher than whites commit crimes (against any race). Black defendants per FBI statistics account for approximately 50% of all murder and nonnegligent manslaughter charges, despite being only 14% of the American population. Or 3.5 times higher than what it should be.

There is a better way to refute the myth. Blacks really do care more about black-on-black crime. They really do fear other blacks more than they fear white cops. Just because they more loudly protest the white-cop-on-black crimes does not mean they are blind to the much bigger problem of black-on-black crimes.

 

[ApostateAbe]

Image used to refute the myth of Point #5:

Counterpoint: 1992 Los Angeles riots.

Property damages: $1 billion dollars (200-fold)
Injuries: 2000+ (14-fold)
Deaths: 53 (Stanley Cup Riot = 0)
Arrests: 11,000 (Stanley Cup Riot = 101, or 109-fold)

The pot is calling the big fat fucking kettle a big fat fucking kettle.

 

[ApostateAbe]

 

[ApostateAbe]

I took a closer look at claim #1.

"White Americans use drugs five times more than black Americans, yet black Americans receive prison sentences for drug offences at ten times the rate of white Americans."

cited this source:

http://www.demos.org/blog/7/29/13/myth-black-black-crime-epidemic

which cited this source:

https://donate.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet

which doesn't cite a source. But the claim is familiar. I think it ultimately comes from here:

http://archive.samhsa.gov/data/NSDU...les/NationalFindings/NSDUHresults2013.htm#ch1

The data is collected with face-to-face interviews. So, if each race tells the truth in equal in proportion, then the statistic is useful.

Unfortunately, current research has found that such data has little value, because races do not tell the truth in equal proportion. Far from it. Blacks are many times more likely to lie when asked by a researcher whether or not they have used drugs. This science has been around for a decade.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3455900/pdf/11524_2006_Article_433.pdf

I hope you are seeing a pattern. When someone repeatedly cites opinionated non-scientific sources for scientific claims, that should really be a red flag.

 

[Emily Lake]

I took a closer look at claim #1.

"White Americans use drugs five times more than black Americans, yet black Americans receive prison sentences for drug offences at ten times the rate of white Americans."

Regardless of whether you find a cite for this, I don't actually doubt the veracity of this claim, at least not in more general terms. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that white people use more drugs than black people. But it's a very unqualified claim. In particular, what kind of drugs are being used, and in what circumstances, is fairly important.

I don't think there's any doubt that there are far more black people in jail for drug-related charges, on a per-capita basis, than there are white people. And I don't think there's any doubt that it is far disproportionate to the rates of actual illegal drug use that occurs. What I think is missing is the types of drugs being used, and where/how those drugs are being used... as well as the complicating factors of racism in the justice system.

Even if all else was equal, I think that a black person is more likely to get pulled over or stopped by the police. That in turn allows the police more opportunity to discover the illegal drugs.

When you add that to the fact that the sentences for different substances vary, and that the rates of usage for those substances differ by income level, and that income is correlated with race... Is it any wonder that black people are getting the short end of the justice stick?