Florida Man, Legislative Affairs Director for the State Board of Administration Shot Dead

[Jarhyn]

Apparently, "defending yourself" is not a good reason to have a firearm in a car in civilized society

Yes. This, but unironically.

Because having a gun to defend yourself in a society makes it less civilized and more (FIGHT TO THE DEATH).

I tend to think in most situations (FIGHT TO THE DEATH) is what civilization is here to cut down on as much as possible.

There is no reason short of the zombie apocalypse to have a loaded firearm in a car. Even then, unless it's loaded with silver bullets - Oh, wait, that's for vampires. Sorry.
In short, what we have is a LCC with a gun, picking a fight with someone in a Prius under the false assumption that he was the only one with a gun.
The main reason for someone who is NOT a LCC to have a gun in their car, is the existence of LCCs with guns in their cars.

The only reason for wanting a gun is specifically because one fears that the society they live in is uncivilized.

 

[Elixir]

The only reason for wanting a gun is specifically because one fears that the society they live in is uncivilized

In other words, you’re either a LCC or you’re afraid of them.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Apparently, "defending yourself" is not a good reason to have a firearm in a car in civilized society

Yes. This, but unironically.

Because having a gun to defend yourself in a society makes it less civilized and more (FIGHT TO THE DEATH).

I tend to think in most situations (FIGHT TO THE DEATH) is what civilization is here to cut down on as much as possible.

There is no reason short of the zombie apocalypse to have a loaded firearm in a car. Even then, unless it's loaded with silver bullets - Oh, wait, that's for vampires. Sorry.
In short, what we have is a LCC with a gun, picking a fight with someone in a Prius under the false assumption that he was the only one with a gun.
The main reason for someone who is NOT a LCC to have a gun in their car, is the existence of LCCs with guns in their cars.

The only reason for wanting a gun is specifically because one fears that the society they live in is uncivilized.

Who is "the society"?
There are several reasons for wanting a gun, but a prominent one is that one reckons that there enough dangerous criminals on the street to warrant it, as a means of self-defense, as the police will often not be there in time. Whether the reason is justified depends on the circumstances. But that does not tell you that "the society" is uncivilized. It may well be that well over 90% are civilized people. But there are enough who aren't to warrant having a gun for self-defense.

 

[Jarhyn]

Apparently, "defending yourself" is not a good reason to have a firearm in a car in civilized society

Yes. This, but unironically.

Because having a gun to defend yourself in a society makes it less civilized and more (FIGHT TO THE DEATH).

I tend to think in most situations (FIGHT TO THE DEATH) is what civilization is here to cut down on as much as possible.

There is no reason short of the zombie apocalypse to have a loaded firearm in a car. Even then, unless it's loaded with silver bullets - Oh, wait, that's for vampires. Sorry.
In short, what we have is a LCC with a gun, picking a fight with someone in a Prius under the false assumption that he was the only one with a gun.
The main reason for someone who is NOT a LCC to have a gun in their car, is the existence of LCCs with guns in their cars.

The only reason for wanting a gun is specifically because one fears that the society they live in is uncivilized.

Who is "the society"?...

Ok, you got me. Those who fear the society is uncivilized, and those who rejoice to make society uncivilized.

I don't think either warrants the activity to carry around guns and actually MAKE it uncivilized no matter what your motivation is.

As to who the society is, it includes both, and everyone else besides.

Your fear that you need guns to make criminals not commit crime (you don't!) Makes the criminals know that guns are what they need to commit crime.

I live in a fairly large city and I commute through it on public transit. I live in one of the poorest regions in that large city, and I see many of the poorest people who live here, often on a daily basis. Yet somehow these 10%* have only materialized three or four times, for me.

That is very few times for 10% of the population to try something. Granted in two of those attacks it wasn't me they were moving on, and in two or three of those situations, they stopped moving on account of the presence of a thing brandished as a weapon, though the thing was not a gun in any such case.

You are not making a very strong case for decaying the civilization level of our society

*wow, btw, a whole 10% of your world is criminals waiting to rob and rape you? That must be an awful place to live!!

 

[Elixir]

*wow, btw, a whole 10% of your world is criminals waiting to rob and rape you?

That's minor league:

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Ok, you got me. Those who fear the society is uncivilized, and those who rejoice to make society uncivilized.

And those who fear that some of the members of the society are uncivilized (more precisely, violent criminals) and they pose enough of a threat to warrant carrying a firearm, even if the vast majority of the members of the society are civilized.

I don't think either warrants the activity to carry around guns and actually MAKE it uncivilized no matter what your motivation is.

But in some cases, it does warrant the activity of carrying around guns, without making it uncivilized.
Whether it is warranted depends on the case.

Your fear that you need guns to make criminals not commit crime (you don't!) Makes the criminals know that guns are what they need to commit crime.

I was not talking about me. I was challenging your claim about reasons for wanting a gun.

That aside, there are places in which criminals regularly do carry guns. Or they carry knives and kill people just as well. And carrying a gun for self-defense would be a rational choice for many, who would rationally prefer the odds gun vs. gun rather than nothing vs. knife, or knife vs. knife, etc.

I live in a fairly large city and I commute through it on public transit. I live in one of the poorest regions in that large city, and I see many of the poorest people who live here, often on a daily basis. Yet somehow these 10%* have only materialized three or four times, for me.

First, I said "well over" 90%. It could be 95%. Or 99%, etc. I'm considering a hypothetical scenario, and a realistic one, and pointing out there are reasons for wanting a gun other than what you said. Whether the use of guns is justified depends on how dangerous the others are, among other factors.

Second, I never suggested that it was justified where you live. It's almost certainly much less than 10%, but in any case, it might or might not be justified for all I know; I do not have enough information to tell. (side note: 3 or 4 times seems like a lot to me. But perhaps street criminal where you live are not so prone to use violence; I do not know).

That is very few times for 10% of the population to try something.

Indeed; 10% levels or more I reckon you might get in some (limited) places in the Wild West, 19th century or before, things like that...or in some pretty bad places in the present day. But I'm not sure how high it could get.

You are not making a very strong case for decaying the civilization level of our society

You're not making a very strong case for dropping nukes in Russia?

I'm not making a case for " decaying the civilization level of our society ". I am arguing that people want guns for reasons other than what you claim.

*wow, btw, a whole 10% of your world is criminals waiting to rob and rape you? That must be an awful place to live!!

First, no, I never suggested that.
Second, rob me? A lot fewer than that, but enough for me to be looking around carefully, especially but not only at night. It does increase the awfulness of the place by a lot.
Third, rape me? The risk is far too low for me to be concerned. Nearly all street criminals (or any other kind) would almost certainly not be interested. But for other people, it would be a serious concern.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Apparently, "defending yourself" is not a good reason to have a firearm in a car in civilized society

Yes. This, but unironically.

Because having a gun to defend yourself in a society makes it less civilized and more (FIGHT TO THE DEATH).

I tend to think in most situations (FIGHT TO THE DEATH) is what civilization is here to cut down on as much as possible.

There is no reason short of the zombie apocalypse to have a loaded firearm in a car. Even then, unless it's loaded with silver bullets - Oh, wait, that's for vampires. Sorry.
In short, what we have is a LCC with a gun, picking a fight with someone in a Prius under the false assumption that he was the only one with a gun.
The main reason for someone who is NOT a LCC to have a gun in their car, is the existence of LCCs with guns in their cars.

Note that with no guns involved it's probably the opposite outcome--good guy dead, bad guy alive. The shooter did have a reason to carry a gun!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The only reason for wanting a gun is specifically because one fears that the society they live in is uncivilized

In other words, you’re either a LCC or you’re afraid of them.

The crime rate by LCCs is very low (and many of those crimes are crimes of improper carrying--crimes that hurt nobody.) It's not people being afraid of LCCs, it's people being afraid of various bad guys that they wouldn't be able to defend themselves in a hand-to-hand fight.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

*wow, btw, a whole 10% of your world is criminals waiting to rob and rape you?

That's minor league:
View attachment 36818

The Republicans have that many zombie voters?

 

[Jarhyn]

Apparently, "defending yourself" is not a good reason to have a firearm in a car in civilized society

Yes. This, but unironically.

Because having a gun to defend yourself in a society makes it less civilized and more (FIGHT TO THE DEATH).

I tend to think in most situations (FIGHT TO THE DEATH) is what civilization is here to cut down on as much as possible.

There is no reason short of the zombie apocalypse to have a loaded firearm in a car. Even then, unless it's loaded with silver bullets - Oh, wait, that's for vampires. Sorry.
In short, what we have is a LCC with a gun, picking a fight with someone in a Prius under the false assumption that he was the only one with a gun.
The main reason for someone who is NOT a LCC to have a gun in their car, is the existence of LCCs with guns in their cars.

Note that with no guns involved it's probably the opposite outcome--good guy dead, bad guy alive. The shooter did have a reason to carry a gun!

It's interesting insofar as you declare guys good and bad here.

Even in the event of actual pitched war, of one army against another and one of those armies built on an openly fascist regime, the furthest I have ever gone (and it was too far) was calling for the execution of people for whom our prisons could not hold and for whom there was no clear path to rehabilitation.

Even then I think it's wrong to declare such people are bad.

If we all carried guns because we fear someone will use their car to murder us in our cars, then that logic would put a gun in every car and then it would be right back to "the only reason the asshole died here is because his aim was for shit".

I would rather contend where someone must sacrifice and ruin a fairly expensive piece of machinery to murder me, thanks.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Note that with no guns involved it's probably the opposite outcome--good guy dead, bad guy alive. The shooter did have a reason to carry a gun!

It's interesting insofar as you declare guys good and bad here.

Even in the event of actual pitched war, of one army against another and one of those armies built on an openly fascist regime, the furthest I have ever gone (and it was too far) was calling for the execution of people for whom our prisons could not hold and for whom there was no clear path to rehabilitation.

Even then I think it's wrong to declare such people are bad.

If we all carried guns because we fear someone will use their car to murder us in our cars, then that logic would put a gun in every car and then it would be right back to "the only reason the asshole died here is because his aim was for shit".

I would rather contend where someone must sacrifice and ruin a fairly expensive piece of machinery to murder me, thanks.

Good guy = person obeying the law. Bad guy = person breaking the law.

As for having to ruin an expensive piece of machinery--such people aren't thinking clearly. The truck is nothing compared to many years in jail, if the latter isn't a deterrent then the former isn't, either.

 

[Jarhyn]

Note that with no guns involved it's probably the opposite outcome--good guy dead, bad guy alive. The shooter did have a reason to carry a gun!

It's interesting insofar as you declare guys good and bad here.

Even in the event of actual pitched war, of one army against another and one of those armies built on an openly fascist regime, the furthest I have ever gone (and it was too far) was calling for the execution of people for whom our prisons could not hold and for whom there was no clear path to rehabilitation.

Even then I think it's wrong to declare such people are bad.

If we all carried guns because we fear someone will use their car to murder us in our cars, then that logic would put a gun in every car and then it would be right back to "the only reason the asshole died here is because his aim was for shit".

I would rather contend where someone must sacrifice and ruin a fairly expensive piece of machinery to murder me, thanks.

Good guy = person obeying the law. Bad guy = person breaking the law.

As for having to ruin an expensive piece of machinery--such people aren't thinking clearly. The truck is nothing compared to many years in jail, if the latter isn't a deterrent then the former isn't, either.

The latter is not immediate. At any rate, the cost incurred for such and the consequences of... All that... It's just not enough for me to care so much as to make myself readily and repeatably lethal at range.

 

[Elixir]

The latter is not immediate. At any rate, the cost incurred for such and the consequences of...

The right thing to do when someone attacks someone with their car is to make them walk home.
Of course you take away their gun first.

 

[Jarhyn]

The latter is not immediate. At any rate, the cost incurred for such and the consequences of...

The right thing to do when someone attacks someone with their car is to make them walk home.
Of course you take away their gun first.

Well, make them walk home and then everywhere else for the foreseeable future.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The latter is not immediate. At any rate, the cost incurred for such and the consequences of...

The right thing to do when someone attacks someone with their car is to make them walk home.
Of course you take away their gun first.

Well, make them walk home and then everywhere else for the foreseeable future.

No. Just permanently take their ability to drive. They can still take the bus and the like.

 

[Jarhyn]

The latter is not immediate. At any rate, the cost incurred for such and the consequences of...

The right thing to do when someone attacks someone with their car is to make them walk home.
Of course you take away their gun first.

Well, make them walk home and then everywhere else for the foreseeable future.

No. Just permanently take their ability to drive. They can still take the bus and the like.

-_-

Seriously? Yer killin' me smalls.

"Walking" generally includes public transit where available. As well as biking and the like.

But I would even give them an annual bus pass for their trouble.

 

[Gospel]

*wow, btw, a whole 10% of your world is criminals waiting to rob and rape you?

That's minor league:
View attachment 36818

Plot twist. He's the biggest FBI informant behind the January 6th arrests.

 

[Gospel]

The latter is not immediate. At any rate, the cost incurred for such and the consequences of...

The right thing to do when someone attacks someone with their car is to make them walk home.
Of course you take away their gun first.

Well, make them walk home and then everywhere else for the foreseeable future.

No. Just permanently take their ability to drive. They can still take the bus and the like.

I like that idea. In Orlando FL that's as good as the death sentence cause our public transport sucks.