Forgery suspect killed by cop restricting his airway

[Loren Pechtel]

in retrospect how ignorant and unprescient these early posts by Derec look

On the contrary, nothing has changed. It is still true that perps will often feign injury and illness. In fact, I suspect that George Floyd will lead to pretty much every perp yelling "I can't breathe" when getting arrested. And it is still true that talking requires air movement through the trachea, so Floyd could still breathe when he was talking.

Note also his drug use (meth AND fentanyl) combined with a heart condition.

This doesn't look like an excited delirium case, it's unlikely that his drug use had anything to do with his death other than making him talk back to the cop and thus provoke the neck pressure punishment.

 

[Jarhyn]

in retrospect how ignorant and unprescient these early posts by Derec look

On the contrary, nothing has changed. It is still true that perps will often feign injury and illness. In fact, I suspect that George Floyd will lead to pretty much every perp yelling "I can't breathe" when getting arrested. And it is still true that talking requires air movement through the trachea, so Floyd could still breathe when he was talking.

Note also his drug use (meth AND fentanyl) combined with a heart condition.

This doesn't look like an excited delirium case, it's unlikely that his drug use had anything to do with his death other than making him talk back to the cop and thus provoke the neck pressure punishment.

Not to mention, that "I can't breath" can, in such a context, be correctly interpreted as "I can't breath enough", or the fact that being able to emit air is different from being able to suck air in.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Exactly. They are suspected more, accused more, convicted more ... so in this case the data is biased in itself. So anyone who cites this flawed statistics is not really proving a point, because the data itself is biased.

Murder gets investigated enough that we have a high enough clearance rate to have pretty good data on the racial distribution of murderers. It's consistent with what we see with arrests with other crimes.

We also have data from automated systems that obviously can't see the race of the driver--and such systems select black-driven cars at about the same rate officers do.

Whataboutism.

 

[Deepak]

Whataboutism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

According to Russian writer and political activist Garry Kasparov, it is a word that was coined to describe the frequent use of a rhetorical diversion by Soviet apologists and dictators, who would counter charges of their oppression, "massacres, gulags, and forced deportations" by invoking American slavery, racism, lynchings, etc.

This isn't Whataboutism. The point is that you're committing a composition error, because the thing that everyone is talking about is broader than the things that could be captured in your statistic on murder. You're offering this statistic as a proxy but people don't accept it because it doesn't address the thing being discussed (and that's assuming that your statistics are accurate and free of methodological issues or biased data).

I can measure the mass of things I observe through a telescope, but the telescope only tells me about things it's capable of observing.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Not to mention, that "I can't breath" can, in such a context, be correctly interpreted as "I can't breath enough", or the fact that being able to emit air is different from being able to suck air in.

I guess Derec never had a strawberry milkshake. That experience where you are able to blow to clear a straw you cannit suck thru?
I believe this is a Discussion Point in respiratory trauma care.

 

[Jarhyn]

Not to mention, that "I can't breath" can, in such a context, be correctly interpreted as "I can't breath enough", or the fact that being able to emit air is different from being able to suck air in.

I guess Derec never had a strawberry milkshake. That experience where you are able to blow to clear a straw you cannit suck thru?
I believe this is a Discussion Point in respiratory trauma care.

I mean, when you have two people kneeling on your back, I bet it's pretty manageable to blow some air out past your vocal cords... But good luck breathing IN.

Granted even if he could take short, gasping breaths using all his effort, it's a lot of work and eventually the reward for doing it is eclipsed by the effort it expends. Eventually, you succumb, and anyone would.

I can hold by breath now for about 3.5 minutes, assuming I start with a good bit of air in my lungs and prepare for it. I can make it maybe 5 minutes before I start getting desperate for air if I am allowed instead to take small breaths. After that, I would pass out. With two people kneeling on my back after passing out, I would be taking no breaths. Within 3 minutes of that, I would be dead.

We have a man here taking gasping breaths for 5 minutes, ceasing to move, and then after another 3 and a half minutes he is dead.

 

[TSwizzle]

victim blaming. People have a first amendment right to free speech, and in particular nonviolent speech. The police brutally assaulted him for exercising that right to speech.

Maybe he was breaking curfew, I don’t know ? But let’s face it, he put himself in harms way and the consequences were dire. And for what ? A pointless exercise. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

 

[Jarhyn]

victim blaming. People have a first amendment right to free speech, and in particular nonviolent speech. The police brutally assaulted him for exercising that right to speech.

Maybe he was breaking curfew, I don’t know ? But let’s face it, he put himself in harms way and the consequences were dire. And for what ? A pointless exercise. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

As I said. Maybe someone punches a "very fine person". Let's face it, they put themselves in harm's way, and the consequences are getting punched. And for what? A pointless declaration of fascism. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

 

[TSwizzle]

[As I said. Maybe someone punches a "very fine person". Let's face it, they put themselves in harm's way, and the consequences are getting punched. And for what? A pointless declaration of fascism. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

Clearly you don’t understand reality and are immersed in fantasies that never happened. This was totally avoidable. I don’t know what the poor man was thinking but we may never know now.

 

[Jarhyn]

[As I said. Maybe someone punches a "very fine person". Let's face it, they put themselves in harm's way, and the consequences are getting punched. And for what? A pointless declaration of fascism. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

Clearly you don’t understand reality and are immersed in fantasies that never happened. This was totally avoidable. I don’t know what the poor man was thinking but we may never know now.

You're right. It was totally avoidable. All that was necessary was for a cop to NOT shove him down. All that was necessary was for police to NOT decide to brutalize people.

I don't know what the idiot cop was thinking but we may never know.

 

[TSwizzle]

You're right. It was totally avoidable. All that was necessary was for a cop to NOT shove him down. All that was necessary was for police to NOT decide to brutalize people.

I don't know what the idiot cop was thinking but we may never know.

Indeed. And this is why you live in fantasy land. Because the reality is we live in a world where some cops do brutalize people and you take a risk when you put yourself in their sphere. He would have been better off staying home and leaving that shit to someone younger.

 

[Jarhyn]

You're right. It was totally avoidable. All that was necessary was for a cop to NOT shove him down. All that was necessary was for police to NOT decide to brutalize people.

I don't know what the idiot cop was thinking but we may never know.

Indeed. And this is why you live in fantasy land. Because the reality is we live in a world where some cops do brutalize people and you take a risk when you put yourself in their sphere. He would have been better off staying home and leaving that shit to someone younger.

More victim blaming bullshit. This is entirely the reason he was out there: because we need all voices from all walks protesting the brutality.

The reality is we live in a world where some people punch Nazis, and you take a risk when you put yourself in that sphere. Nazis are better off staying home and leaving that shit to... Well, nobody. They should just stay home.

 

[TSwizzle]

More victim blaming bullshit. This is entirely the reason he was out there: because we need all voices from all walks protesting the brutality.

Protest, fine. But I’d be very wary about confronting the police in the current situation. It was so unnecessary and the consequences are dire. But as I said, a useful martyr for the cause I suppose.

 

[Derec]

This doesn't look like an excited delirium case, it's unlikely that his drug use had anything to do with his death other than making him talk back to the cop and thus provoke the neck pressure punishment.

I disagree. Over and over again these "deaths in custody" cases involve people who are high on something. There was another case in Tacoma, WA that is now getting attention. Manuel Ellis was trying to steal cars, police allegedly beat him up, he died after saying "I can't breathe". Tox screen found he was high on meth.

 

[Derec]

The description says she is a black woman but she doesn't appear to be black. Her skin albedo is high and very similar to that of the supposedly white cop. Must be that silly "one drop rule" ...
Also, why is he on top of her? Was she resisting arrest?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

More victim blaming bullshit. This is entirely the reason he was out there: because we need all voices from all walks protesting the brutality.

Protest, fine. But I’d be very wary about confronting the police in the current situation. It was so unnecessary and the consequences are dire. But as I said, a useful martyr for the cause I suppose.

Sounds a lot like you are trying desperately to be useful for the opposing cause, but nothing you are writing has any value.

 

[lpetrich]

'Des Moines is not immune to this': Iowa protesters march for racial justice — and get results - "After a week of demonstrations led by black activists, the all-white Des Moines City Council is planning a vote on a ban of racial profiling by police."

US Legislatures slow to pass laws limiting use of force

A wave of police killings of young black men in 2014 prompted 24 states to quickly pass some type of law enforcement reform, but many declined to address the most glaring issue: police use of force. Six years later, only about a third of states have passed laws on the question.

...
Now, some lawmakers and governors are hoping to harness the renewed wave of anger to push through changes on the use of force they couldn’t manage after 2014, a year that included the deaths at the hands of police of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, Eric Garner in New York and 12-year-old Tamir Rice in Cleveland.

Tonya Riley on Twitter: "INBOX: @OversightDems + @AOC @RepPressley @RepRaskin @RepLynch want answers about CBP’s surveillance of protestors this past week (including drone use). At least the second letter to DHS in a week about surveillance concerns. They want answers by June 11 https://t.co/wZNQQXeAbR" / Twitter
Full letter: 2020-06-05.CBM et. al to Wolf- DHS re Peaceful Protestors_0.pdf

NYC-DSA EcoSocialist WG on Instagram: “What could be more important than youth, public health, homeless outreach and housing justice? ... a military force to wage war on their own city? * #defundthepolice #defundnypd
Claiming the following numbers for New York City:

• Police Department: $5.6B
• Total of what's below: $5.4B
  • Homeless Services $2.1B
  • Dept. of Health $1.7B
  • HPD $1.0B
  • Youth $0.6B

HPD = Housing Preservation & Development

 

[blastula]

Exactly. They are suspected more, accused more, convicted more ... so in this case the data is biased in itself. So anyone who cites this flawed statistics is not really proving a point, because the data itself is biased.

Murder gets investigated enough that we have a high enough clearance rate to have pretty good data on the racial distribution of murderers. It's consistent with what we see with arrests with other crimes.

We also have data from automated systems that obviously can't see the race of the driver--and such systems select black-driven cars at about the same rate officers do.

What data is that? Here's data that says there is bias in traffic stops.

Police stop fewer black drivers at night when a 'veil of darkness' obscures their race | EurekAlert! Science News

 

[lpetrich]

I'm a Minneapolis City Council Member. We Must Disband the Police—Here's What Could Come Next | Time

On Tuesday, May 26, we woke up to find a video circulating of a Minneapolis Police officer named Derek Chauvin kneeling on the neck of a man, choking him to death while onlookers begged him to stop and three other officers stood by and did nothing. The process of mourning George Floyd’s death has sparked a permanent, generational change to the mainstream view of policing in America.

Ilhan Omar on Twitter: "The Minneapolis Police Department has proven themselves beyond reform.
It’s time to disband them and reimagine public safety in Minneapolis.
Thank you to @MplsWard3 for your leadership on this! https://t.co/AQfHM5M6eR" / Twitter

Ilhan Omar on Twitter: "" / Twitter
noting
Jeremy Schroeder - Minneapolis Ward 11 on Twitter: "I am fully committed to disinvesting in the MPD as it exists today ..." / Twitter

I am fully committed to disinvesting in the MPD as it exists today and rebuilding a public safety system that is designed to serve the public with compassion and respect – with enough guardrails to prevent another tragedy like George Floyd’s death at the hands of the police.

Mr. Floyd’s brutal murder represents the latest in a too-long list of reasons to build something different and better. I believe there is a place for focused and accountable law enforcement in this city. We know the MPD is not meeting that standard.

Our community cannot survive under the current system, and we need change now.

Some of the most meaningful work I’ve done lies at the intersection of human lives and public safety. Before I took office, I led the coalition that helped abolish the death penalty in Illinois, a system that disproportionately impacts communities of color.

Through this work, looking beyond my own privilege, I became intimately acquainted with the deep faults in our criminal justice system, laid bare again in the raw horror of Mr. Floyd’s death.

I won’t support incremental change when it has clearly failed us so far. It is now time for full transformation. We must do better.

In effect, shutting down the existing police force and building a new one to take its place. I'm concerned that a new one may slip into the same bad habits that the old one had. In Animal Farm, George Orwell's animal allegory of the Soviet Union, the pigs ended up becoming human.

 

[blastula]

You're right. It was totally avoidable. All that was necessary was for a cop to NOT shove him down. All that was necessary was for police to NOT decide to brutalize people.

I don't know what the idiot cop was thinking but we may never know.

Indeed. And this is why you live in fantasy land. Because the reality is we live in a world where some cops do brutalize people and you take a risk when you put yourself in their sphere. He would have been better off staying home and leaving that shit to someone younger.

More victim blaming bullshit. This is entirely the reason he was out there: because we need all voices from all walks protesting the brutality.

The reality is we live in a world where some people punch Nazis, and you take a risk when you put yourself in that sphere. Nazis are better off staying home and leaving that shit to... Well, nobody. They should just stay home.

That argument would work better against someone who is against punching nazis.