France: Just Another Regressive Left Shithole

[JonA]

... what people say the reasons are for the things they do and the ACTUAL reasons for the things they do are rarely aligned.

And, please, tell us: How do you divine people's 'ACTUAL' reasons?

 

[Bomb#20]

What do the weirdoes mean by 'left', I always wonder. Normal or human. I suppose

Certainly not in this case. As authoritarian and illiberal and any right wingers can be.

Authoritarian and illiberal is normal and human. Live and let live is an acquired taste in our species.

 

[prideandfall]

... what people say the reasons are for the things they do and the ACTUAL reasons for the things they do are rarely aligned.

And, please, tell us: How do you divine people's 'ACTUAL' reasons?

how the fuck should i know, am i a psychic?

knowing that people lie about their intentions isn't the same as knowing what their intentions are.

 

[JonA]

And, please, tell us: How do you divine people's 'ACTUAL' reasons?

how the fuck should i know, am i a psychic?

knowing that people lie about their intentions isn't the same as knowing what their intentions are.

How do you know they're lying?

 

[iolo]

To the FOX News crowd, there are only three political ideologies in the entire world: libertarianism, conservatism (which are completely different, I swear!), and everything else. Thus, words like communism, socialism, fascism, anarchism, etc. can be used interchangeably because they all mean the same thing.

That's what they mean by "left."

Right - normal or human!

 

[iolo]

What do the weirdoes mean by 'left', I always wonder. Normal or human. I suppose

Certainly not in this case. As authoritarian and illiberal and any right wingers can be.

Well, this is just noise, isn't it? You mean by 'left' 'anyone who disagrees with me rather than lying down to die so I win'?

 

[iolo]

France, by the way, has been repressive throughout its history, but very seldom progressive of (in real terms) 'left'.

 

[ronburgundy]

Yes, there are many possibilities, which is why you are incorrect to presume this is a result of "compromise" and not a result of too many French people being "stupid or silly". They are quite capable of it, just as Americans are. I am not claiming, it is for sure a result of incoherent morons who support both illegality and not prosecuting the sex workers because they are already mistreated due partly to the illegal market these morons created. I am just saying that this is a very plausible possibility, especially since it seems unlikely that illegal prostitution would have enough support if in France, if it were only supported by sexual prudes whose opposition isn't about concern for mistreatment of sex workers.

If you read news articles you will find that, no, it wasn't about that.

What is the "that" that "it" is not about? Religious prudishness? Parentalist forms of pseudo-feminism that are generally opposed to commercialized female sexuality? Concern for sex-slaves and the abuse that sex workers face?

Also, there are two different "it"s that "it" is about. One is support for prostitution being illegal, the other is support for not prosecuting sex workers engaged in illegal prostitution. What are each of these about?

If any of the same people behind both these things, then "it" cannot be about sincere concern for sex workers and sex slaves, because those problems are made far worse by illegality.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, that's assuming that the people with the position agree with you on that point. They may think that illegality is the best way to handle those issues and don't find the statistics on the matter to be compelling because there's some baseless emotional argument which appeals to them more.

 

[ronburgundy]

Well, that's assuming that the people with the position agree with you on that point. They may think that illegality is the best way to handle those issues and don't find the statistics on the matter to be compelling because there's some baseless emotional argument which appeals to them more.

True. So either they are dishonest liars, or too dangerously and pathetically stupid to hold office.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, that's assuming that the people with the position agree with you on that point. They may think that illegality is the best way to handle those issues and don't find the statistics on the matter to be compelling because there's some baseless emotional argument which appeals to them more.

True. So either they are dishonest liars, or too dangerously and pathetically stupid to hold office.

OK, ya. However that basically applies to every politician everywhere on every issue. It's not something specific to this topic.

 

[ronburgundy]

True. So either they are dishonest liars, or too dangerously and pathetically stupid to hold office.

OK, ya. However that basically applies to every politician everywhere on every issue. It's not something specific to this topic.

Not specific to the topic, but highly relevant to it. I would also argue that reaching such an objectively false conclusion that illegality is the best approach is not likely to occur as a mere honest error unless the person actually suffers from severe mental disability. More likely it is not an "error" but a willful self-deceit resulting from ulterior motives that promote active self-delusion akin to how young earth creationist maintain their faith. IOW, they "think" it is the best solution because they want to believe it is for other selfish and ideological reasons. Among those ulterior motives is likely to be prudish anti-sexuality, which is plentiful even among non-religious "liberals".

 

[Axulus]

Empirical studies commissioned by the French National Assembly found significant frequency of factual events such as sex trafficking, violence from pimps, non-consent, and trauma.

That's what happens when there isn't a legal system to participate in.

The simplest solution is to require a license for prostitutes where they verify their age and citizenship status. Customers would only need to verify that they have a valid license. If they go to an unlicensed prostitute then they should be prosecuted (unless they were deceived).

 

[bilby]

Where prostitution is legal and licenced, the problems you get are this kind of thing:

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/emilie-and-sonya-welch-plead-guilty-to-sharing-same-sexual-health-certificate-while-working-in-brothels/story-e6freon6-1226497319716

It's pretty clear that these are people who are making an active choice to be prostitutes; and that they are so keen to do so, that they are prepared to fudge the paperwork.

They committed a minor transgression of the law, paid a small fine, and everyone moved on with their lives.

Of course, where prostitutes, their clients, or both are defined as criminals, there are lots of serious problems - including a much greater chance of sex-slavery.

The idea that these problems are caused by prostitution itself, and not by the criminalisation and resultant regulatory vacuum, is laughable.

Indeed, the situation is analogous to the drug trade. Legal recreational drugs cause minor problems; illegal ones cause major problems. The problem is not the drugs, or the prostitution per se; it is the prohibition.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Empirical studies commissioned by the French National Assembly found significant frequency of factual events such as sex trafficking, violence from pimps, non-consent, and trauma.

That's what happens when there isn't a legal system to participate in.

According to what I read there was and the problems that occurred as a result needed to be corrected. The French NA came to this conclusion.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Where prostitution is legal and licenced, the problems you get are this kind of thing:

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/emilie-and-sonya-welch-plead-guilty-to-sharing-same-sexual-health-certificate-while-working-in-brothels/story-e6freon6-1226497319716

It's pretty clear that these are people who are making an active choice to be prostitutes; and that they are so keen to do so, that they are prepared to fudge the paperwork.

They committed a minor transgression of the law, paid a small fine, and everyone moved on with their lives.

Of course, where prostitutes, their clients, or both are defined as criminals, there are lots of serious problems - including a much greater chance of sex-slavery.

The idea that these problems are caused by prostitution itself, and not by the criminalisation and resultant regulatory vacuum, is laughable.

Indeed, the situation is analogous to the drug trade. Legal recreational drugs cause minor problems; illegal ones cause major problems. The problem is not the drugs, or the prostitution per se; it is the prohibition.

Wow, I used to be in favour of adult women's right to make the choice to work as prostitutes until I read about these two's flagrant disregard for the law and the basic principles behind civilized society. People like them need to spend the rest of their life rotting in jail and then the rest of eternity burning in Hell.

Misrepresenting themselves on regulatory filing paperwork. Not even Hitler ever sank that low.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Where prostitution is legal and licenced, the problems you get are this kind of thing:

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/emilie-and-sonya-welch-plead-guilty-to-sharing-same-sexual-health-certificate-while-working-in-brothels/story-e6freon6-1226497319716

It's pretty clear that these are people who are making an active choice to be prostitutes; and that they are so keen to do so, that they are prepared to fudge the paperwork.

They committed a minor transgression of the law, paid a small fine, and everyone moved on with their lives.

Of course, where prostitutes, their clients, or both are defined as criminals, there are lots of serious problems - including a much greater chance of sex-slavery.

The idea that these problems are caused by prostitution itself, and not by the criminalisation and resultant regulatory vacuum, is laughable.

Indeed, the situation is analogous to the drug trade. Legal recreational drugs cause minor problems; illegal ones cause major problems. The problem is not the drugs, or the prostitution per se; it is the prohibition.

Wow, I used to be in favour of adult women's right to make the choice to work as prostitutes until I read about these two's flagrant disregard for the law and the basic principles behind civilized society. People like them need to spend the rest of their life rotting in jail and then the rest of eternity burning in Hell.

Misrepresenting themselves on regulatory filing paperwork. Not even Hitler ever sank that low.

Huh? They didn't misrepresent themselves. One simply used the other's paperwork.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Which is a case of misrepresentation. One used the other's paperwork and represented herself as her sister at the escort agency.

 

[SimpleDon]

I question the capacity of government to regulate the profession if prostitution was made legal.

Everyone "knows" that government is incompetent and screws up everything that they touch.

Why can't we just rely on the free market?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I question the capacity of government to regulate the profession if prostitution was made legal.

Everyone "knows" that government is incompetent and screws up everything that they touch.

Why can't we just rely on the free market?

Because the free market in this industry is heavily reliant on the rape of sex slaves. That's the kind of things which one should be against. The question is what types of regulation are best suited to stop it.