Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[RavenSky]

So, let's make two columns on how Gray was injured. In column A is the evidence that Gray hurt himself. In column B is the evidence that he was injured because of a "rough ride."

This is an excluded middle fallacy aka false dilemma. Only two possible causes of Gray's injuries are being presented even though there is at least one more possibility: Gray could have fallen from his seat during the ride, most likely during changes in speed and direction or when the vehicle drove over a pothole, and was not able to save himself from injury because he was in handcuffs and leg restraints. No 'rough ride', no self-harm, just Newtonian physics at work and the reason why police are supposed to secure detainees with seat belts.

exactly

 

[coloradoatheist]

This is an excluded middle fallacy aka false dilemma. Only two possible causes of Gray's injuries are being presented even though there is at least one more possibility: Gray could have fallen from his seat during the ride, most likely during changes in speed and direction or when the vehicle drove over a pothole, and was not able to save himself from injury because he was in handcuffs and leg restraints. No 'rough ride', no self-harm, just Newtonian physics at work and the reason why police are supposed to secure detainees with seat belts.

exactly

It's a very good possibility, but that would have been the argument at the civil trial, which they didn't have. And at the civil trial the burden of proof would have been on the police side to prove that Gray injuried himself and there most of the neglect goes to him.

However for the criminal trial, they needed to show more than just neglect that people have been talking about on here.

 

[Arctish]

exactly

It's a very good possibility, but that would have been the argument at the civil trial, which they didn't have. And at the civil trial the burden of proof would have been on the police side to prove that Gray injuried himself and there most of the neglect goes to him.

However for the criminal trial, they needed to show more than just neglect that people have been talking about on here.

They can show that Maryland State law requires the use of seat belts in moving vehicles, that Baltimore Police Department policy requires the use of seat belts in police vehicles, and that all Baltimore police officers had been recently reminded to make sure detainees were properly secured.

 

[coloradoatheist]

It's a very good possibility, but that would have been the argument at the civil trial, which they didn't have. And at the civil trial the burden of proof would have been on the police side to prove that Gray injuried himself and there most of the neglect goes to him.

However for the criminal trial, they needed to show more than just neglect that people have been talking about on here.

They can show that Maryland State law requires the use of seat belts in moving vehicles, that Baltimore Police Department policy requires the use of seat belts in police vehicles, and that all Baltimore police officers had been recently reminded to make sure detainees were properly secured.

It was tried with case regarding the highest officer, but the judge said no since it was a recent policy and had been up to the officer in charge until recently. The prosecuter would have had a better chance if misconduct of an officer was their only charge.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One major reason for that is that Mr. Gray was not properly secured according to police protocols.

And the other prisoner claims to never have reported it. The police union reported it, but there is no record of anyone talking to the other prisoner about this when the police union made the claim.

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You have an obligation to protect them from outside harm. I don't think you have an obligation to protect them from self harm, though.

Well I guess all those suicide prevention isolation cells and procedures are just for show.

Gray had shown no indication of being suicidal. Those suicide prevention measures are only used on those who have indicated suicidal thoughts. (Although this is done on the slightest hint--the cops aren't shrinks, any hint of suicidal thought and the prisoner gets the suicide watch until a psychiatrist evaluates them. The cops are specifically not expected to evaluate the seriousness of the prisoner's statement.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And you are forgetting that Donta Allen says he did NOT claim "was banging around in the van" to knock himself out or commit "self harm" or whatever fantasy you are pushing here.

Donta Allen, the other prisoner inside the police transport van with Freddie Gray, clarified his story Thursday to WJZ, a Baltimore TV news station.

Allen says he wants to set the record straight after The Washington Post reported Wednesday that an internal police report quoted Allen as saying it seemed Freddie Gray was intentionally trying to hurt himself.

“All I did was go straight to the station, but I heard a little banging like he was banging his head,” Allen told WJZ. “And they are trying to make it seem like I told them that … like Freddie Gray did that to himself. Why the (expletive) would he do that to himself?”

http://wric.com/2015/05/01/other-prisoner-recants-freddie-gray-story/

What else would banging one's head be but about self harm??

I do not think Gray intended any serious injury, but rather that he was setting up a police brutality claim. However, sometimes when people try such stunts (it's more often done as an auto accident) things go much worse than expected.

Look at Russia--dashcams are everywhere because of all the people jumping in front of cars to make injury claims.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is probably noted elsewhere in this long thread, but it was more than just reported - it is evidence presented in the trials.

Goodson's attorneys have argued that prosecutors withheld statements made last year by Donta Allen, a key witness. Allen was picked up by the Baltimore police van after Gray.

In his original statement to police in April last year, Allen said he heard banging coming from Gray's side of the vehicle. He gave a similar statement in a separate interview with prosecutors a month later, but the state never turned it over as evidence to defense attorneys. Williams found today that prosecutors committed a Brady violation — after Brady v. Maryland, a 1963 Supreme Court decision requiring prosecutors to disclose evidence that would aid the defense — because Allen's May 2015 statement was deemed exculpatory evidence.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-finds-prosecutors-withheld-evidence-freddie-gray-officer/story?id=39725459

Schatzow argued that Allen provided nothing at their meeting in May 2015 that required disclosure to the defense, and described Allen's comments there as entirely unreliable and contradictory — so much so, in fact, that they don't intend to call him as a witness.

Schatzow also said Thursday that the state believes Allen was coached on what to say in his initial statement to police by another police officer, Officer Zachary Novak, who the state granted immunity in order to testify before the grand jury — where he denied the coaching accusation.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md-ci-donta-allen-role-20160609-story.html

However we want to look at it, Donata Allen's conflicting statements cannot be used as evidence of anything, so Loren should stop trying to excuse Freddie Gray's death as self-inflicted on their basis.

I don't see that his statements are contradictory. His initial report was that it sounded like he was banging his head. After Gray died he said there wasn't any reason he would have done that--but that's assuming that Gray was intentionally trying to kill himself, something that I do not think was the case.

And the state most certainly knew the testimony was damning if they granted someone immunity in an attempt to rebut it. Personally I think that "prosecutor" should be in jail on murder charges. (I feel that trying to frame someone should carry the same penalty as whatever you're trying to frame them for. Knowingly withholding exculpatory evidence I see as an attempt to frame.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And Allen knows this... how? He could not see Freddie Gray to know what body part he may or may not have been banging, nor whether said alleged banging was even on purpose. Does Allen, perhaps, have X-ray eyes?

Feel your body. Where is there a large bone very close to the surface other than the head? The only other thing that comes even close is the kneecap. Thus if the impact sounds like there's very little flesh between the bone and what's being hit it's almost certainly the head.

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So, let's make two columns on how Gray was injured. In column A is the evidence that Gray hurt himself. In column B is the evidence that he was injured because of a "rough ride." In column A we write in Allen's statements. In column B, nothing. No evidence was offer at all of a "rough ride." So, yeah, self-infliction is probably more likely. I know, I know, there's your fantasy that Mosby's district attorneys chose not to charge Allen in exchange for him giving statements tanking their high-profile case against the cops. That'd probably be the worst quid pro quo evah. But let's remember that all it takes to break a neck is just enough force at the right angle. Happens in football in wrestling. And this guy did it dancing to his favorite rave: http://www.youredm.com/2015/12/14/guy-literally-breaks-neck-from-raging-too-hard/
So Gray hurting himself is far more plausible.

And remember also that we have video of him with a faked injury. Look as he's being carried by the police, apparently unable to move his legs. That is, until not moving them would be painful--then he moves them.

 

[RavenSky]

Keep digging your hole, Loren. Your arguments look more ridiculous with every post.

 

[Trausti]

Prosecutors dropped all remaining charges against three Baltimore police officers accused in the arrest and death of Freddie Gray in a downtown courtroom on Wednesday morning, concluding one of the most high-profile criminal cases in Baltimore history.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md-ci-miller-pretrial-motions-20160727-story.html

 

[thebeave]

Prosecutors dropped all remaining charges against three Baltimore police officers accused in the arrest and death of Freddie Gray in a downtown courtroom on Wednesday morning, concluding one of the most high-profile criminal cases in Baltimore history.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md-ci-miller-pretrial-motions-20160727-story.html

So all that rioting and burning cars was for nothing?

 

[NMN]

So all that rioting and burning cars was for nothing?

Of course not. A whole lot of black folks in Baltimore are watching the dnc with nice tvs they got with a five-finger discount.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Pfft. Black people. What are ya gonna do?

 

[Derec]

Well, somebody is going to prison over all this.
Baltimore man sentenced to 5 years for arson in Freddie Gray riot

In unrelated Baltimore news, did you guys hear of this shooting.
Korryn Gaines: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know
The weirdest thing about this case is that she Facebook chatted during the standoff and that her "friends" were egging her on. She was also indocrtrinaring her 5 year old son with anti-police propaganda (police were there, according to her, to kill them, rather than arrest her and her boyfriend). She was basically using that poor kid as a hostage/human shield because she didn't want to pay a traffic fine. Sad.
Otherwise, pretty cut and dried - justified shooting.

 

[Derec]

Marilyn Mosby wants to change the rules because she lost.
Marilyn Mosby would like to prevent cops from opting for bench trials

Marilyn Mosby is the "annoying childhood friend".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Marilyn Mosby wants to change the rules because she lost.
Marilyn Mosby would like to prevent cops from opting for bench trials

In other words, she wants to try the cases in the court of public opinion.

Hint: When someone opts for a bench trial figure they are not guilty.