Free-will and ALL knowing's God can they coexist ?

[Syed]

I want you to use your imagination, Syed. Can you imagine that "God" made the universe and everything in it? Can you imagine that "God" has the power to move every atom at "his" will? Can you imagine an atom / molecule which is bouncing around in a bottle of water? Do you agree that "God" could have made that atom bounce around another way than what it actually did, say three minutes ago? Can you imagine someone killing someone else? Can you imagine them doing it three days ago? Can you imagine "God" existing BEFORE "he" made the universe?

Let's make some propositions:-
"God" can do any logically possible thing "he" wants.
"God" has all the power necessary to do those things.
"God" knows everything that has ever happened, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future.

This means that "God" knows when you will die for example, down to the last 'micro-pico-tiny' fraction of a second accuracy.
"God" knows exactly how you will die, be it of old age, or illness or murder at someone's hands or whatever.
Let's suppose that you will murder somebody, at some time in the future, (I hope not - this is just a thought exercise).

Now go back to imagining "God" creating the universe. Since "God" can see everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, then when "God" made the universe, and even before "he" made the universe, "he" had the ability to see everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen, including you murdering someone. That means that from the instant "God" supposedly created this universe, all that is in it, and at that will ever happen in it was decided, foreseen and known to 100% certainty and accuracy, (supposedly by this "God"). "God" could foresee you doing a murder to someone, seeing and knowing it to 100% certainty, back before the universe was real, back when "he" was imagining how "he" wanted it to be, (after all, "he must" have made it however "he" wanted it to be - not how "he" didn't want it to be).

I've imagined this type of scenario many times. As a comparison, I envisage it like "God" writing scripts for movies, many scripts which "he" could have brought to be. Many universes, with many different story lines, and and many different people and animals and so on, compared to the one in which we actually live.

What this means is that "God" chose the one universe, based on "his" all-seeing knowledge of everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, and in that 'script' you do murder one day. Thus everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future happens by "God's" will. So you being a murderer would be "God's" will. Ever since before the universe began, you were cast in the role of murderer. There will be nothing that you can do, no act of will, which will prevent that. So where is your non-robotness? How are you able to end up as anything other than as a murderer?

You might say, 'If it's "God's" will then it will be'. OK, but on the other hand, if your will is to not be a murderer, then you are stuck, because it is written in "God's" history, in "God's" script for the universe, that you will be a murderer. Then how can you claim to NOT be like a robot? The only option you have is to do "God's" will - it cannot be varied. On this description of "God" and of "his" powers and abilities, freewill is just an illusion, you merely follow a program, like it or not, as a robot.

It sounds a bit fancy and "nice" to claim that: "If "God" wills it, it will be". But the logical conclusion shatters the myth of real free agency or non-robotness. If the thought game is that you will do murder, what it means, (according to your belief Syed - if I have it correct), is that "God" did the murder, long ago, before "he" supposedly "created" the universe. It was a "decision" "God" made when writing the script for the history of the universe, the one which "he" picked, and when supposedly brought into reality.

On this analysis, what it also means is that "God" cannot have any hopes, or wishes or other plans. They were all laid down long ago, (according to your belief Syed - if I have it correct). "God' cannot hope that you will not become a murderer, because "he" knows to 100% certainty that you will. A being with 100% accurate knowledge of everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, cannot hope for anything other than what it knows it will be.

If you wish to give that being, ("God"), the power to change the events in the universe by some means unknown to us, that "change" would be known to "God", right from before the moment(s) of "creation", as well. Even that was cast in an iron-clad and unchangeable history, set in the "mind" of "God" since "time zero". Thus even "God" could not make that atom / molecule bouncing around in the bottle of water, any different than what "he" supposedly envisaged before the universe was brought into being, before the atoms and molecules existed, before humans invented bottles, before the water came to be in the bottle, and before anything material supposedly came into existence.

So, Syed, you need to change the statement . . .

god could make human without suffering but human would be like robot without suffering

. . . to something like :-

Even with suffering and with pleasure, we are robot-like, because "God" decided so long ago, before we were born, and even before we were supposedly "created", exactly what we would do, when and how, and we are not able to deviate our behaviour from "God's" script, because "God" has perfect knowledge, and knows how he planned our births, our deaths, and all of our actions in life.


According to your belief, Syed - if I have it correct, we are robots that are pushed and pulled and shoved by pain and pleasure, and it was laid down by your "God", and you must follow the details of "God's" lines of robot code, that "he" decided, when "he" was pondering how "he' would have the universe run, BEFORE he made anything, when there was just "God" and nothing else. It might seem as though we are free, and not robots, but, (according to your belief Syed - if I have it correct), it just has to be an illusion. I challenge you to do anything tomorrow, which is not already in your "God's" script or program, for how you, and all of the universe will be, and run.

i will answers all your questions one by one

 

[Syed]

Originally Posted by Gila Guerilla
I want you to use your imagination, Syed. Can you imagine that "God" made the universe and everything in it? Can you imagine that "God" has the power to move every atom at "his" will? Can you imagine an atom / molecule which is bouncing around in a bottle of water? Do you agree that "God" could have made that atom bounce around another way than what it actually did, say three minutes ago? Can you imagine someone killing someone else? Can you imagine them doing it three days ago? Can you imagine "God" existing BEFORE "he" made the universe?

god exist out side our universe or what ever he created thing

 

[James Brown]

What does "outside" the universe even mean?

How could anyone know anything about what's "outside" the universe?

Claiming that God is outside of space and time solves many logical problems for believers. But there's no proof that it's true, other than the fact that it solves logical problems.

 

[Atheos]

It solves no logical problem at all. It simply moves the problem to a place believers like to find comfort in as long as they can glaze their eyes over.

Every "prime mover" argument is an exercise in fast talk and eye-glazing with a side order of special pleading. Going "outside the universe" doesn't offer safe haven from special pleading.

 

[Syed]

What does "outside" the universe even mean?

How could anyone know anything about what's "outside" the universe?

Claiming that God is outside of space and time solves many logical problems for believers. But there's no proof that it's true, other than the fact that it solves logical problems.

what ever i am telling you is a religious BELIEF so dont ask me evidence

How could anyone know anything about what's "outside" the universe?

how could anyone know anything about multi universe ? its a BELIEF

 

[DBT]

'' Free-will and ALL knowing's God can they coexist ? ''

No. The concept of free will is incoherent at the best of times, but applied to an Omniscient God in the form of alternative choice, there are no choices to be made, Omniscience means that the past, present and future (time being relative and Omniscience absolute) is perfectly known and what is perfectly/absolutely known cannot be altered.

 

[Juma]

what ever i am telling you is a religious BELIEF so dont ask me evidence

How could anyone know anything about what's "outside" the universe?

how could anyone know anything about multi universe ? its a BELIEF

You must always base your beliefs on evidence.
There are a lot of evidence for the multiverse and yet it is seen as a hypotesis, a possible solution, not as the only truth.

- - - Updated - - -

'' Free-will and ALL knowing's God can they coexist ? ''

No. The concept of free will is incoherent at the best of times, but applied to an Omniscient God in the form of alternative choice, there are no choices to be made, Omniscience means that the past, present and future (time being relative and Omniscience absolute) is perfectly known and what is perfectly/absolutely known cannot be altered.

Which concept of free will? There are plenty, wildly different.

 

[LordKiran]

what ever i am telling you is a religious BELIEF so dont ask me evidence





how could anyone know anything about multi universe ? its a BELIEF

You must always base your beliefs on evidence.
There are a lot of evidence for the multiverse and yet it is seen as a hypotesis, a possible solution, not as the only truth.

- - - Updated - - -

'' Free-will and ALL knowing's God can they coexist ? ''

No. The concept of free will is incoherent at the best of times, but applied to an Omniscient God in the form of alternative choice, there are no choices to be made, Omniscience means that the past, present and future (time being relative and Omniscience absolute) is perfectly known and what is perfectly/absolutely known cannot be altered.

Which concept of free will? There are plenty, wildly different.

Free will cannot exist as anything more than an idea if the future is set in stone, which it would have to be in order for someone to know it. The personal definition you choose to use for 'free will' does not matter in this context as they are all equally mutually exclusive with the future being set in stone.

If you were fated to do something, how can you ascribe that to free will in any reasonable way?

 

[Juma]

You must always base your beliefs on evidence.
There are a lot of evidence for the multiverse and yet it is seen as a hypotesis, a possible solution, not as the only truth.

- - - Updated - - -

'' Free-will and ALL knowing's God can they coexist ? ''

No. The concept of free will is incoherent at the best of times, but applied to an Omniscient God in the form of alternative choice, there are no choices to be made, Omniscience means that the past, present and future (time being relative and Omniscience absolute) is perfectly known and what is perfectly/absolutely known cannot be altered.

Which concept of free will? There are plenty, wildly different.

Free will cannot exist as anything more than an idea if the future is set in stone, which it would have to be in order for someone to know it. The personal definition you choose to use for 'free will' does not matter in this context as they are all equally mutually exclusive with the future being set in stone.

If you were fated to do something, how can you ascribe that to free will in any reasonable way?

You should read up on the differents types of free will definitions.

"Free will" as in "decided by the person alone and not under pressure from other persons" fits even if the outcome is fixed by god.

 

[DBT]

'' Free-will and ALL knowing's God can they coexist ? ''

No. The concept of free will is incoherent at the best of times, but applied to an Omniscient God in the form of alternative choice, there are no choices to be made, Omniscience means that the past, present and future (time being relative and Omniscience absolute) is perfectly known and what is perfectly/absolutely known cannot be altered.

Which concept of free will? There are plenty, wildly different.

I provided one version of free will in my remark, the ability to choose otherwise - quote from my post; ''but applied to an Omniscient God in the form of alternative choice''

Which is probably the most common idea of free will...the ability to select from a set of realisable options.

 

[LordKiran]

You must always base your beliefs on evidence.
There are a lot of evidence for the multiverse and yet it is seen as a hypotesis, a possible solution, not as the only truth.

- - - Updated - - -

'' Free-will and ALL knowing's God can they coexist ? ''

No. The concept of free will is incoherent at the best of times, but applied to an Omniscient God in the form of alternative choice, there are no choices to be made, Omniscience means that the past, present and future (time being relative and Omniscience absolute) is perfectly known and what is perfectly/absolutely known cannot be altered.

Which concept of free will? There are plenty, wildly different.

Free will cannot exist as anything more than an idea if the future is set in stone, which it would have to be in order for someone to know it. The personal definition you choose to use for 'free will' does not matter in this context as they are all equally mutually exclusive with the future being set in stone.

If you were fated to do something, how can you ascribe that to free will in any reasonable way?

You should read up on the differents types of free will definitions.

"Free will" as in "decided by the person alone and not under pressure from other persons" fits even if the outcome is fixed by god.

Doesn't make it any less of an illusory concept though, which was sort of my point the whole time. If you're fated to do something, then it's out of your hands. Whether you embrace your fate or not is entirely irrelevant. The chance of the future occurring as fated is exactly the same if you made a conscious effort to subvert it as it would be if you did not. Your personal input has ZERO impact on the final outcome outside of you playing out your predetermined role. (Which you WILL play, no matter what.)

Just because the man doesn't realize he is little more than a cog in a greater mechanism does not make him 'free'.

 

[Juma]

You must always base your beliefs on evidence.
There are a lot of evidence for the multiverse and yet it is seen as a hypotesis, a possible solution, not as the only truth.

- - - Updated - - -

'' Free-will and ALL knowing's God can they coexist ? ''

No. The concept of free will is incoherent at the best of times, but applied to an Omniscient God in the form of alternative choice, there are no choices to be made, Omniscience means that the past, present and future (time being relative and Omniscience absolute) is perfectly known and what is perfectly/absolutely known cannot be altered.

Which concept of free will? There are plenty, wildly different.

Free will cannot exist as anything more than an idea if the future is set in stone, which it would have to be in order for someone to know it. The personal definition you choose to use for 'free will' does not matter in this context as they are all equally mutually exclusive with the future being set in stone.

If you were fated to do something, how can you ascribe that to free will in any reasonable way?

You should read up on the differents types of free will definitions.

"Free will" as in "decided by the person alone and not under pressure from other persons" fits even if the outcome is fixed by god.

Doesn't make it any less of an illusory concept though, which was sort of my point the whole time. If you're fated to do something, then it's out of your hands. Whether you embrace your fate or not is entirely irrelevant. The chance of the future occurring as fated is exactly the same if you made a conscious effort to subvert it as it would be if you did not. Your personal input has ZERO impact on the final outcome outside of you playing out your predetermined role. (Which you WILL play, no matter what.)

Just because the man doesn't realize he is little more than a cog in a greater mechanism does not make him 'free'.

That depends entirely on the perspective. When you look at a movie you can certainly have usage of the term free will to describe the characters actions, still we know that the movie is totally static seen as as a whole.

 

[Syed]

I want you to use your imagination, Syed. Can you imagine that "God" made the universe and everything in it? Can you imagine that "God" has the power to move every atom at "his" will? Can you imagine an atom / molecule which is bouncing around in a bottle of water? Do you agree that "God" could have made that atom bounce around another way than what it actually did, say three minutes ago? Can you imagine someone killing someone else? Can you imagine them doing it three days ago? Can you imagine "God" existing BEFORE "he" made the universe?

Let's make some propositions:-
"God" can do any logically possible thing "he" wants.
"God" has all the power necessary to do those things.
"God" knows everything that has ever happened, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future.

This means that "God" knows when you will die for example, down to the last 'micro-pico-tiny' fraction of a second accuracy.
"God" knows exactly how you will die, be it of old age, or illness or murder at someone's hands or whatever.
Let's suppose that you will murder somebody, at some time in the future, (I hope not - this is just a thought exercise).

Now go back to imagining "God" creating the universe. Since "God" can see everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, then when "God" made the universe, and even before "he" made the universe, "he" had the ability to see everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen, including you murdering someone. That means that from the instant "God" supposedly created this universe, all that is in it, and at that will ever happen in it was decided, foreseen and known to 100% certainty and accuracy, (supposedly by this "God"). "God" could foresee you doing a murder to someone, seeing and knowing it to 100% certainty, back before the universe was real, back when "he" was imagining how "he" wanted it to be, (after all, "he must" have made it however "he" wanted it to be - not how "he" didn't want it to be).

I've imagined this type of scenario many times. As a comparison, I envisage it like "God" writing scripts for movies, many scripts which "he" could have brought to be. Many universes, with many different story lines, and and many different people and animals and so on, compared to the one in which we actually live.

God all knowing?

here is ( MY ) understanding of the quran

an ( EXAMPLE )

allah does NOT know i am dead or alive

everything i did in MY life good and bad allah DOES NOT KNOW

according to the quran, allah appointed 2 angels to EVERY human being to record their good and bad deeds

so allah dont NEED to KNOW what i am doing good or bad


allah is ALL KNOWING even he chose something not to know

according to the quran this life is a TEST ( to choose between good and bad ) by freewill

if allah ALREADY knew than this life is NOT a test

if god foresee our choices than human have NO purpose being on earth, we should be in heaven or hell

god is "all knowing" simply mean that god have knowledge of the universe

"free will mean" that god does not know our future actions

what is the meaning of free will to you?

if god foresee i will go to the hell, can i go to the heaven?

god did not say that he ALREADY knew who will go to heaven or hell

can god chose not to know?

 

[LordKiran]

You must always base your beliefs on evidence.
There are a lot of evidence for the multiverse and yet it is seen as a hypotesis, a possible solution, not as the only truth.

- - - Updated - - -

'' Free-will and ALL knowing's God can they coexist ? ''

No. The concept of free will is incoherent at the best of times, but applied to an Omniscient God in the form of alternative choice, there are no choices to be made, Omniscience means that the past, present and future (time being relative and Omniscience absolute) is perfectly known and what is perfectly/absolutely known cannot be altered.

Which concept of free will? There are plenty, wildly different.

Free will cannot exist as anything more than an idea if the future is set in stone, which it would have to be in order for someone to know it. The personal definition you choose to use for 'free will' does not matter in this context as they are all equally mutually exclusive with the future being set in stone.

If you were fated to do something, how can you ascribe that to free will in any reasonable way?

You should read up on the differents types of free will definitions.

"Free will" as in "decided by the person alone and not under pressure from other persons" fits even if the outcome is fixed by god.

Doesn't make it any less of an illusory concept though, which was sort of my point the whole time. If you're fated to do something, then it's out of your hands. Whether you embrace your fate or not is entirely irrelevant. The chance of the future occurring as fated is exactly the same if you made a conscious effort to subvert it as it would be if you did not. Your personal input has ZERO impact on the final outcome outside of you playing out your predetermined role. (Which you WILL play, no matter what.)

Just because the man doesn't realize he is little more than a cog in a greater mechanism does not make him 'free'.

That depends entirely on the perspective. When you look at a movie you can certainly have usage of the term free will to describe the characters actions, still we know that the movie is totally static seen as as a whole.

If you're going to argue that free will is a matter of perspective then that renders the whole idea pointless and meaningless.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

No such thing as a free will, lawyers and probate are always there and don't come free.

 

[Lion IRC]

What does "outside" the universe even mean?

How could anyone know anything about what's "outside" the universe?

Claiming that God is outside of space and time solves many logical problems for believers. But there's no proof that it's true, other than the fact that it solves logical problems.

If brand new quantum particles can come into existence out of nothing, as certain physicists would have us believe, why can't there be a thing called "outside space and time"?

 

[Malintent]

I want you to use your imagination, Syed. Can you imagine that "God" made the universe and everything in it? Can you imagine that "God" has the power to move every atom at "his" will? Can you imagine an atom / molecule which is bouncing around in a bottle of water? Do you agree that "God" could have made that atom bounce around another way than what it actually did, say three minutes ago? Can you imagine someone killing someone else? Can you imagine them doing it three days ago? Can you imagine "God" existing BEFORE "he" made the universe?

Let's make some propositions:-
"God" can do any logically possible thing "he" wants.
"God" has all the power necessary to do those things.
"God" knows everything that has ever happened, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future.

This means that "God" knows when you will die for example, down to the last 'micro-pico-tiny' fraction of a second accuracy.
"God" knows exactly how you will die, be it of old age, or illness or murder at someone's hands or whatever.
Let's suppose that you will murder somebody, at some time in the future, (I hope not - this is just a thought exercise).

Now go back to imagining "God" creating the universe. Since "God" can see everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, then when "God" made the universe, and even before "he" made the universe, "he" had the ability to see everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen, including you murdering someone. That means that from the instant "God" supposedly created this universe, all that is in it, and at that will ever happen in it was decided, foreseen and known to 100% certainty and accuracy, (supposedly by this "God"). "God" could foresee you doing a murder to someone, seeing and knowing it to 100% certainty, back before the universe was real, back when "he" was imagining how "he" wanted it to be, (after all, "he must" have made it however "he" wanted it to be - not how "he" didn't want it to be).

I've imagined this type of scenario many times. As a comparison, I envisage it like "God" writing scripts for movies, many scripts which "he" could have brought to be. Many universes, with many different story lines, and and many different people and animals and so on, compared to the one in which we actually live.

God all knowing?

here is ( MY ) understanding of the quran

an ( EXAMPLE )

allah does NOT know i am dead or alive

everything i did in MY life good and bad allah DOES NOT KNOW

according to the quran, allah appointed 2 angels to EVERY human being to record their good and bad deeds

so allah dont NEED to KNOW what i am doing good or bad


allah is ALL KNOWING even he chose something not to know

according to the quran this life is a TEST ( to choose between good and bad ) by freewill

if allah ALREADY knew than this life is NOT a test

if god foresee our choices than human have NO purpose being on earth, we should be in heaven or hell

god is "all knowing" simply mean that god have knowledge of the universe

"free will mean" that god does not know our future actions

what is the meaning of free will to you?

if god foresee i will go to the hell, can i go to the heaven?

god did not say that he ALREADY knew who will go to heaven or hell

can god chose not to know?

where do angels come from, according to Koran?

 

[Malintent]

What does "outside" the universe even mean?

How could anyone know anything about what's "outside" the universe?

Claiming that God is outside of space and time solves many logical problems for believers. But there's no proof that it's true, other than the fact that it solves logical problems.

If brand new quantum particles can come into existence out of nothing, as certain physicists would have us believe, why can't there be a thing called "outside space and time"?

because "out of nothing" is just an expression and is not intended to imply somewhere "outside of space and time".
when two particles collide and are annihilated, do they go "outside of space and time"? no, the just cease to exist and the energy produced is predictable, based on the mass. When a particle is created, it does not come from "a place outside of space and time".

 

[Juma]

You must always base your beliefs on evidence.
There are a lot of evidence for the multiverse and yet it is seen as a hypotesis, a possible solution, not as the only truth.

- - - Updated - - -

'' Free-will and ALL knowing's God can they coexist ? ''

No. The concept of free will is incoherent at the best of times, but applied to an Omniscient God in the form of alternative choice, there are no choices to be made, Omniscience means that the past, present and future (time being relative and Omniscience absolute) is perfectly known and what is perfectly/absolutely known cannot be altered.

Which concept of free will? There are plenty, wildly different.

Free will cannot exist as anything more than an idea if the future is set in stone, which it would have to be in order for someone to know it. The personal definition you choose to use for 'free will' does not matter in this context as they are all equally mutually exclusive with the future being set in stone.

If you were fated to do something, how can you ascribe that to free will in any reasonable way?

You should read up on the differents types of free will definitions.

"Free will" as in "decided by the person alone and not under pressure from other persons" fits even if the outcome is fixed by god.

Doesn't make it any less of an illusory concept though, which was sort of my point the whole time. If you're fated to do something, then it's out of your hands. Whether you embrace your fate or not is entirely irrelevant. The chance of the future occurring as fated is exactly the same if you made a conscious effort to subvert it as it would be if you did not. Your personal input has ZERO impact on the final outcome outside of you playing out your predetermined role. (Which you WILL play, no matter what.)

Just because the man doesn't realize he is little more than a cog in a greater mechanism does not make him 'free'.

That depends entirely on the perspective. When you look at a movie you can certainly have usage of the term free will to describe the characters actions, still we know that the movie is totally static seen as as a whole.

If you're going to argue that free will is a matter of perspective then that renders the whole idea pointless and meaningless.

Really? Why?

 

[Syed]

God all knowing?

here is ( MY ) understanding of the quran

an ( EXAMPLE )

allah does NOT know i am dead or alive

everything i did in MY life good and bad allah DOES NOT KNOW

according to the quran, allah appointed 2 angels to EVERY human being to record their good and bad deeds

so allah dont NEED to KNOW what i am doing good or bad


allah is ALL KNOWING even he chose something not to know

according to the quran this life is a TEST ( to choose between good and bad ) by freewill

if allah ALREADY knew than this life is NOT a test

if god foresee our choices than human have NO purpose being on earth, we should be in heaven or hell

god is "all knowing" simply mean that god have knowledge of the universe

"free will mean" that god does not know our future actions

what is the meaning of free will to you?

if god foresee i will go to the hell, can i go to the heaven?

god did not say that he ALREADY knew who will go to heaven or hell

can god chose not to know?

where do angels come from, according to Koran?

god created them