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Free Will And Free Choice

Like any person with an agenda Untermensche ignores the fact the eye is an organ designed to detect and report the presence EM energy. Instead he concentrates on the fact that the cell actually reports the presence of EM energy. The F...in' cell produces an output to bipolar cells in the system designed to detect EM reporting that detection. Amazing. Except of course Untermensche demands that if the cell doesn't 'know' there is no detection no knowledge of light is transmitted.

You need some exposure to fresh air Untermensche. The existence of activity report by a system that detects and reports EM activity selectively by direction and region of space upon which the system is focused is proof the system has detected EM energy from a locus upon which it is focused. Its not a hard problem the evidence is in the existence of the system thanks to natural selection.

Jut how much BS gymnastics are we supposed to put up with here? OK I say woo woo deployed. The cone does what it is designed to do. But the light detecting system doesn't know the information it reports is of light being detected by a cell tasked with reporting a particular frequency(s) in a system system tasked with detecting and reporting the presence of EM energy in the visible spectrum. Did I get all the spin Untermenscehe?

Now all you have to do is prove all those structures between the receptor and the voice saying "that is an ripe orange" aren't actually doing so by resolving EM frequency reports by sorting retinal cell reports into a mosaic defining color common to most human beings.

I rate your presentation right up there with the John Birch Society's claiming the UN committee chartered to reporting on communist country behavior is communist because it does what it is tasked to do by the United Nation's charter.
 
Like any person with an agenda Untermensche ignores the fact the eye is an organ designed to detect and report the presence EM energy.
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You confuse what you know with what a cell could possibly know.

All a cell can possibly know is whether or not a molecular transformation has occurred.

A cell cannot know anything about what caused the transformation.

How does the cell know what caused the opsin molecule to convert from a trans to a cis configuration?
 
It really doesn't matter what a cell "knows" in the case where a system is designed by natural forces to respond to EM energy.

My point has bee for the last four posts the cell needn't know much of anything. The system can only respond to EM energy of certain frequencies because, because, there is advantage to the being surviving when one does.

So the cell reports detection of EM not knowing or caring since the system only permits such energy to be processed granting that benefit. Sorry the mind isn't informed by constituent cells. Kind of puts a kink in any determinative processes involved with that thing. It's out of the loop.

The only way a mind can receive such information is from an all linked up for it to use color table built up from connecting the frequencies and loci through the processing network meant to handle such stuff in the ascending optical network processing system.

Darn. Sorry about that.
 
NO no no.

No design.

Sheer chance.

For some reason the opsin molecule was there and by sheer chance external energy was able to cause a transition.

From this the brain evolved and created a response to the transition that helped with survival.

Not a response to energy. The brain only responds to a molecular transition.

The brain has no information about the energy.

Therefore color cannot possibly be a feature of energy.
 
The process is random variation. The design part is selection of those outcomes that improved likelihood of survival. What mutation takes place is chance. Which mutation that improves likelihood of survival is design.

Chance going in performance design coming out. Opsin? Of course likelihood chance. Opsin works with existing cell? Chance. Outcome of working EM capture and transmission. Improved design.

There is no way a being can gain advantage from such as edibles and obstacles unless accesses processing capabilities of energy that confers sensible characteristics to other matter.

The existing nervous system involved in ascending and descending neural communication in the brain had to go through a lot of random to design improvement steps as well.

We recognize this random impetus to improved function as evolutionary design through natural selection.

Of course a sensing system designed to respond to EM energy. That is exactly what the Vision system accomplishes. it does so via normal biological and biochemical processing taking advantage of attributes of Opsins as means through which nature uses EM energy to provides a tool for a being to make use of nature better.

The last is a description requiring no 'knowing" of EM energy to actually use the detection of such as a means of providing more or less complete access to the attributes of visible light to existing biological detecting, sorting, and classifying processes.

you know that one need not know the form of stimulation to devise machines to use and classify that stimulation by existing machine capabilities. Computers do it all the time. It's done with a translation algorithm.

An example. Back in the day, '60s, I took holes programmed by reference to a table of random numbers to provide a tape of several tone pairs with specific silent periods between via computer which also provided a punched tape of the routine.

The punched tape was run on a tape reader to deliver commands for a program or system of logical elements to generate and deliver sounds to observers in a sound deadened chamber in a randomized sequence called an experimental session.

Think of the information transferred to the nervous system as the brain reading the punched tape to a system suited to produce and lists, intervals, sounds and behavior. Do you get the picture?

The one receiving the sounds has no idea of from what source comes the sounds, nor the cause of their sequence. Yet the observer hears the sounds and properly responds to items in the sequence.
 
Decision-Making

''Decision-making is such a seamless brain process that we’re usually unaware of it — until our choice results in unexpected consequences. Then we may look back and wonder, “Why did I choose that option?” In recent years, neuroscientists have begun to decode the decision-making process. What they’re learning is shedding light not only on how the healthy brain performs complex mental functions, but also on how disorders, such as stroke or drug abuse, affect the process.''

''Researchers can study decision-making in animals. As monkeys decide which direction a moving target is headed, researchers record the activity in brain cells called neurons. These studies have helped to reveal the basis for how animals and humans make everyday decisions.''

Thanks to advances in technology, researchers are beginning to unravel the mysterious processes by which humans make decisions. New research is helping scientists develop:

A deeper understanding of how the human brain reasons, plans, and solves problems.
Greater insight into how sleep deprivation, drug abuse, neurological disorders, and other factors affect the decision-making process, suggesting new behavioral and therapeutic approaches to improve health.
Our brains appear wired in ways that enable us, often unconsciously, to make the best decisions possible with the information we’re given. In simplest terms, the process is organized like a court trial. Sights, sounds, and other sensory evidence are entered and registered in sensory circuits in the brain. Other brain cells act as the brain’s “jury,” compiling and weighing each piece of evidence. When the accumulated evidence reaches a critical threshold, a judgment — a decision — is made.''
 
Thanks for your insight DBT.

However if you look at my example in the post above your post, my example took in to account the  Ludic fallacy presumed by those who aren't married to empirical presumptions indecision making.

I actually took in to account the possibility that one has memory that exceeds the number of trials included in one session, 200, covering the five options for gaps in the number of trails and the number of 20 repetitions of trials in an experimental session.

That consideration required me to increase number of tapes produced to five times the number of individuals times the number of sessions for each observer included in that repeated measures experiment.

The number of potential sequences, so doing, by shifting starting points on a tape by seven trail left me with the option of no repetitions among individuals required for statistical robustness over the number of sequences required for reach observer in that repeated measures the experiment.

And, as you might have noted, my experiment was conducted about 40 years before  Black swan theory or Donald Rumsfeld mentioned unknown knowns in his press conference.
 
fromderinside said:
The process is random variation.
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Thank you.

Yes.

When the brain creates an experienced color whole that was a random variation that was built upon. Like the construction of the brain itself.

We know beyond doubt the brain could not be using data about energy to create the color.

The evolving brain has absolutely no information about the energy.

Human beings don't know about the energy for tens of thousands of years. And it takes the rare appearance of geniuses to tell them about it.
 
DBT said:
Decision-Making

''Decision-making is such a seamless brain process that we’re usually unaware of it....
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Bull.

I know when I have to make a decision, when one is needed, and I know when and how I make many decisions.

I make them based on ideas in my mind. Ideas and language are intertwined in the mind.

The brain does not have ideas. It creates a mind.

It does not waste it's time and energy constructing a mind.

The brain (slave) constructs a mind (master) so the mind can make decisions based on ideas.

Some feel themselves so unworthy and without anything original they imagine themselves to be slaves when they are masters.

Only a master could come here and make a meaningful argument.

A slave does what it is told without question. It does not decide if an idea is good or true. Only masters do that.
 
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The brain doesn't create. .... and there you go again racing off into the world of unknown unknowns with the certainty of an old hag who never got anything right.

If energy causes an action then whatever received the energy is capable of reacting to it.

If what reacted to the energy to the energy creates a signal then either the identity of the entity or the information from the signal is communicated. If what reacted to the the energy is designed to react to that energy then that energy is known to the system receiving it.

If a system reacting to energy commnicates with the rest of the systems in the being then that system is known to the being. So whatever is received by the being from the known system is known to the being either as information to which the system was responding or to the nature of the system itself. Either way the being knows the system responsible for detecting EM energy was reporting EM information.

All that remains is for the being to have the capability to associate all information sent from the EM detecting system as information from associated elements of the EM receiving system. That established, it is reasonable to presume the being can cobble together the substance of what the EM system has represented. Bingo, shape, texture, color, available via integration of information received from the EM sensitive system. No mind creating anything. Just a consciousness of results of brain activity routed through language mechanisms via sub-vocalizations. to be heard and considered a thought.

You're a likable cocky sort. So thanks for the masturbation's by the way.
 
fromderinside said:
If energy causes an action then whatever received the energy is capable of reacting to it.
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Yes. A switch is capable of being turned on by a hand.

If what reacted to the energy to the energy creates a signal then either the identity of the entity or the information from the signal is communicated.
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Not true at all and it is your error.

If what reacted to the energy creates a signal through a molecular transformation then all that can be communicated is whether or not a transformation has occurred.

There is no possible mechanism for information about what caused the transformation to be known or communicated.

Your position is dead.

Dead.

All that is left is the logical position.

Brains have evolved mechanisms that create the experience of color based on information about molecular transformations not information about energy.
 
No you are wrong.

If a subsystem exists as part of a system because it reacts to EM, then when the subsystem reacts and sends a signal to the system, the system knows the subsystem had detected EM energy.

If not there is no need for the system to have a subsystem that reacts to EM energy nor for the subsystem to send a signal to the system.

Upon receiving a signal the system which has the subsystem sensitive to EM energy knows the subsystem has detected EM energy because that particular subsystem is there to report detection of EM energy.

BTW the brain is not aware of molecular transformations it just has signals of rate and pattern that arrive up sensory channels to which it is wonderfully informed of identity and location from when and where they arise.

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You have your random mutation.

I have mutation is designed by natural selection if being survives.

You have subsystem reports with output other than an EM energy report to the system.

I have a subsystem designed as part of a system that reacts to the presence of EM energy with a signal readable by the system. That is sufficient for the system to know that EM energy is present detected by a part of the system.

This is the logical position.

Brains have evolved. Evolution includes capabilities to acquire information external and internal to the being, to store and process information, and to decide and execute behavior in accordance with its state of selective readiness. It is in this composing a sense map that arises the information necessary to establish place, pattern, texture and color of environment both internal and external.

Everything is also processable in the brain through language, dimensionality, and time.

The of illusion of awareness, experience, and self are constructions formed well after decisions have been made.

Finally, my position is still that the being is handicapped by being subject to actions upon it which are the basis for the being's next action.

IOW a being's behavior is not only determined, but the being's next action falls into the history of events rather than the present.
 
untermensche said:
DBT said:
Decision-Making

''Decision-making is such a seamless brain process that we’re usually unaware of it....
Click to expand...

Bull.

I know when I have to make a decision, when one is needed, and I know when and how I make many decisions.

I make them based on ideas in my mind. Ideas and language are intertwined in the mind.

The brain does not have ideas. It creates a mind.

It does not waste it's time and energy constructing a mind.

The brain (slave) constructs a mind (master) so the mind can make decisions based on ideas.

Some feel themselves so unworthy and without anything original they imagine themselves to be slaves when they are masters.

Only a master could come here and make a meaningful argument.

A slave does what it is told without question. It does not decide if an idea is good or true. Only masters do that.
Click to expand...


images



If one thing is clear: you have no idea. What remains is a complete disregard for science.
 
That is the level of your argument. A child.

You are a worthless fan of researchers. You don't understand a thing they say but you like them.

You think wild guesses about the timing of invisible events is more than subjective nonsense.

You couldn't have a philosophical thought if your life depended on it.

You can't think.

Perhaps you do not have freedom like me.

The brain does not have ideas. It creates a mind.

It does not waste it's time and energy constructing a mind.
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You think your mind is not doing anything.

You are about as deluded and useless as a person could make themselves.

You think you can know truth without the absolute freedom to reject ideas.

You have no answers for all my objections and ignore every one.

Perhaps you are not free?
 
There are only two options.

The mind can freely make decisions or all decisions are dictated somehow by a brain and the mind is tricked into thinking it made the decision.

Is slavery evil?

The free mind says of course. It is a violation of human liberty. It harms people.

The unfree mind say whatever the brain wants it to say.

There is no value in a judgement that is not made freely.
 
This back and forth is ancient, and you two are talking past eachother.

Nothing will come of it.

DBT may recall the epic free will discussions a group of us had back in Oh, say from between 2005 to 2010 or so. I typed my fingers to the bone!

Nothing will come of it.

I am on record as being on the side of free will.

*scampers* :joy:
 
WAB said:
This back and forth is ancient, and you two are talking past eachother.

Nothing will come of it.

DBT may recall the epic free will discussions a group of us had back in Oh, say from between 2005 to 2010 or so. I typed my fingers to the bone!

Nothing will come of it.

I am on record as being on the side of free will.

*scampers* :joy:
Click to expand...


Talking past each other? I'm just pointing out the state of the research into brain function and decision making.....while our good friend Mr Untermensche is flippantly rejecting anything and everything that does not fit his beliefs.
 
untermensche said:
There are only two options.

The mind can freely make decisions or all decisions are dictated somehow by a brain and the mind is tricked into thinking it made the decision.

Is slavery evil?

The free mind says of course. It is a violation of human liberty. It harms people.

The unfree mind say whatever the brain wants it to say.

There is no value in a judgement that is not made freely.
Click to expand...

There is absolutely no evidence that the mind can act independently of the brain and its mind generating activity. All the evidence supports mind being the activity of a brain. That the mind is whatever a brain is doing.

How the brain creates the mind
''Researchers can now directly record the activity of a single neuron or group of neurons and relate that activity to aspects of a specific mental state, such as the perception of the color red or of a curved line. Brain-imaging techniques such asPET (positron emission tomography)scans and fMR (functional magnetic resonance) scans reveal how different brain regions in a normal, living person are ending in concert; a close correspondence exists between the appearance of a mental state or behavior and the activity of se-lected brain regions. And that correspondence can be established between a given macroscopically identifiable region (for example, the primary visual cortex, a language-related area or an emotion-related nucleus) and the microscopic neuron circuits that constitute the region.
 
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