Free Will versus Everything For A Reason

[Rhea]

Some of my friends post Christian pablum to their social media. Today’s:

“Sometimes God will slow you down so that the evil ahead of you will pass before you get there. Your delay could mean your protection. He is a good god.”

Yet these same people (literally, these SAME PEOPLE) will say, “God can’t stop evil because Free Will.”


I feel like replying, “yeah, which is why you should shut up about your Pro Life crap, because maybe god knows what he’s doing, right?”

 

[steve_bank]

I can freely choose between free will and pre destination, or can I? Gosh, what a god awful conundrum.

 

[DBT]

It'd be so nice to have conscious access to the workings of the brain in order to tinker and tweek at will.....

 

[Shadowy Man]

You throw the dart, but God draws the circle around it.

 

[steve_bank]

It'd be so nice to have conscious access to the workings of the brain in order to tinker and tweek at will.....

I heard it said a Buddhist is one who takes himself apart and puts himself back together.

In a translation of Tibetan writings I read there are warnings not to tinker on yourself without experienced guidance, insanity can follow. Buddhism is really applied psychology.

 

[DBT]

It'd be so nice to have conscious access to the workings of the brain in order to tinker and tweek at will.....

I heard it said a Buddhist is one who takes himself apart and puts himself back together.

In a translation of Tibetan writings I read there are warnings not to tinker on yourself without experienced guidance, insanity can follow. Buddhism is really applied psychology.

Whatever an accomplished Buddhist is capable of doing in terms of body control is the work of their brain, the feedback and training is altering the brain, which in turn creates a more accomplished Buddhist, which despite strories of fantastic abilities, also has limitations.

 

[SLD]

Maybe god controls free will through quantum physics. The wave front collapses one way, and you choose steak for dinner. It collapses differently and you choose to have an abortion instead of dinner at all. It’s kind of frightening to think how much control quantum physics and/or god has control over our lives. Maybe quantum physics is god! Now there’s a deep thought.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Theological fatalism.

God is claimed to have created everything. and to be essentially omniscient, having full knowledge of the future. If God decides to create a Universe, God must choose an initial state of creation. From that, God will know how that future will actualize and know all the future contingent facts of that Universe.

So no sentient being in that created Universe has free will. All their moral acts are predestined. If Jane is a good person and get eternal bliss in heaven, God decided to create the Universe where that happens. If John is created an evil person who does many evil acts, and suffers torments in hell forever, God chose that fate for John.

So God gets all credit for all moral evils in any world God creates. Theologians have been trying yo dodge this theological problem for centuries. The ancient Greeks wrestled with the problem of fatalism, predating Christianity.

My particular version here is a bit stronger than usually presented. God must choose an initial state of creation to actualize any created world. God knows that free will does not exist in this Universe God creates. If God decides to create a Universe with horrendous moral evils, God knows he and only he is responsible.


Isaiah 41:22-3
22 Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the
former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end
of them; or declare us things for to come.
23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods:
yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

Isaiah 42:9
"Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new
things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you."

See:
Isaiah 41:22-3, Isaiah 42:9, Isaiah 44:6-7, Isaiah 46:10,
Jeremiah 1:5, Daniel 2:28, Exodus 3:19, Deuteronomy 31:21,
1 Samuel 23:10-13, Psalm 139:4-5 & 16, John 16:13, Acts 2:23,
Acts 3:18, Acts 4:27-28, Ephesians 1:11, Romans 8:29, Romans 11:2


This is found in Christianity with it's claims that all is predestined, God's providence, immanence, election hardening of hearts (God does not value free will), and related issues.

 

[Treedbear]

...
God is claimed to have created everything. and to be essentially omniscient, having full knowledge of the future. If God decides to create a Universe, God must choose an initial state of creation. From that, God will know how that future will actualize and know all the future contingent facts of that Universe.

So no sentient being in that created Universe has free will. All their moral acts are predestined. If Jane is a good person and get eternal bliss in heaven, God decided to create the Universe where that happens. If John is created an evil person who does many evil acts, and suffers torments in hell forever, God chose that fate for John.
...

If God is omniscient and can see what will occur then not only is every sentient being predestined and can not alter the future but so is God. So no free will for God either. Catch-22.

 

[Politesse]

Freedom of the will (what you can conceive of desiring) isn't necessarily the same thing as omnipotence (actually being able to do whatever one wants). If I desire to fly but do not have wings, I do not have the freedom to fly as such, but my will is unconstrained, and in time human ingenuity might even realize my dream, so that free will isn't even necessarily purposeless even if it is contrained by the limitations of reality.

I think it is a common fault of people who have never studied or practiced magic to confuse will for outcome, and this is especially prevalent in this particular debate. Will is important, but it doesn't necessarily come paired with means, let alone a guarantee of a desired outcome. "If I had free will, and I would get whatever I want" skips many steps.

Proviso: I'm discussing the logical question posed here, not advocating for the dogma of free will, which I personally consider to be an illusion.

 

[Treedbear]

Freedom of the will (what you can conceive of desiring) isn't necessarily the same thing as omnipotence (actually being able to do whatever one wants). If I desire to fly but do not have wings, I do not have the freedom to fly as such, but my will is unconstrained, and in time human ingenuity might even realize my dream, so that free will isn't even necessarily purposeless even if it is contrained by the limitations of reality.

I think it is a common fault of people who have never studied or practiced magic to confuse will for outcome, and this is especially prevalent in this particular debate. Will is important, but it doesn't necessarily come paired with means, let alone a guarantee of a desired outcome. "If I had free will, and I would get whatever I want" skips many steps.

Proviso: I'm discussing the logical question posed here, not advocating for the dogma of free will, which I personally consider to be an illusion.

You didn't quote me but if you were addressing my bit of input all I'm saying is God can't be both omniscient and omnipotent. It's the same basic argument that's been made against human free will. If God can foresee the future then that future can't be changed without contradicting the premise of God's omniscience, therefore human will would not be free in the religious sense. I'm just saying that the same restriction must apply to God. If God had the power to change the future then what he foresaw would have been mistaken. God would either have to be completely impotent concerning any matter that would change the future (the classic problem faced by the time traveler) or else have an imperfect knowledge of the future. I see no way around that.

 

[steve_bank]

Bernie Sanders says will should be free for everybody. He is sponsoring a bill to provide free will to everybody.

 

[Politesse]

Freedom of the will (what you can conceive of desiring) isn't necessarily the same thing as omnipotence (actually being able to do whatever one wants). If I desire to fly but do not have wings, I do not have the freedom to fly as such, but my will is unconstrained, and in time human ingenuity might even realize my dream, so that free will isn't even necessarily purposeless even if it is contrained by the limitations of reality.

I think it is a common fault of people who have never studied or practiced magic to confuse will for outcome, and this is especially prevalent in this particular debate. Will is important, but it doesn't necessarily come paired with means, let alone a guarantee of a desired outcome. "If I had free will, and I would get whatever I want" skips many steps.

Proviso: I'm discussing the logical question posed here, not advocating for the dogma of free will, which I personally consider to be an illusion.

You didn't quote me but if you were addressing my bit of input all I'm saying is God can't be both omniscient and omnipotent. It's the same basic argument that's been made against human free will. If God can foresee the future then that future can't be changed without contradicting the premise of God's omniscience, therefore human will would not be free in the religious sense. I'm just saying that the same restriction must apply to God. If God had the power to change the future then what he foresaw would have been mistaken. God would either have to be completely impotent concerning any matter that would change the future (the classic problem faced by the time traveler) or else have an imperfect knowledge of the future. I see no way around that.

While familiar with this line of reasoning, I do not see how it applies to the freedom of the human will.

 

[DBT]

Freedom of the will (what you can conceive of desiring) isn't necessarily the same thing as omnipotence (actually being able to do whatever one wants). If I desire to fly but do not have wings, I do not have the freedom to fly as such, but my will is unconstrained, and in time human ingenuity might even realize my dream, so that free will isn't even necessarily purposeless even if it is contrained by the limitations of reality.

I think it is a common fault of people who have never studied or practiced magic to confuse will for outcome, and this is especially prevalent in this particular debate. Will is important, but it doesn't necessarily come paired with means, let alone a guarantee of a desired outcome. "If I had free will, and I would get whatever I want" skips many steps.

Proviso: I'm discussing the logical question posed here, not advocating for the dogma of free will, which I personally consider to be an illusion.

You didn't quote me but if you were addressing my bit of input all I'm saying is God can't be both omniscient and omnipotent. It's the same basic argument that's been made against human free will. If God can foresee the future then that future can't be changed without contradicting the premise of God's omniscience, therefore human will would not be free in the religious sense. I'm just saying that the same restriction must apply to God. If God had the power to change the future then what he foresaw would have been mistaken. God would either have to be completely impotent concerning any matter that would change the future (the classic problem faced by the time traveler) or else have an imperfect knowledge of the future. I see no way around that.

While familiar with this line of reasoning, I do not see how it applies to the freedom of the human will.

Human will is no freer than what the underlying brain processes that shape and form conscious human will permits.

 

[Politesse]

Human will is no freer than what the underlying brain processes that shape and form conscious human will permits.

Obviously.

 

[DBT]

Human will is no freer than what the underlying brain processes that shape and form conscious human will permits.

Obviously.

It is. Yet some argue to the contrary. I'm not saying that you do.

 

[Treedbear]

Freedom of the will (what you can conceive of desiring) isn't necessarily the same thing as omnipotence (actually being able to do whatever one wants). If I desire to fly but do not have wings, I do not have the freedom to fly as such, but my will is unconstrained, and in time human ingenuity might even realize my dream, so that free will isn't even necessarily purposeless even if it is contrained by the limitations of reality.

I think it is a common fault of people who have never studied or practiced magic to confuse will for outcome, and this is especially prevalent in this particular debate. Will is important, but it doesn't necessarily come paired with means, let alone a guarantee of a desired outcome. "If I had free will, and I would get whatever I want" skips many steps.

Proviso: I'm discussing the logical question posed here, not advocating for the dogma of free will, which I personally consider to be an illusion.

You didn't quote me but if you were addressing my bit of input all I'm saying is God can't be both omniscient and omnipotent. It's the same basic argument that's been made against human free will. If God can foresee the future then that future can't be changed without contradicting the premise of God's omniscience, therefore human will would not be free in the religious sense. I'm just saying that the same restriction must apply to God. If God had the power to change the future then what he foresaw would have been mistaken. God would either have to be completely impotent concerning any matter that would change the future (the classic problem faced by the time traveler) or else have an imperfect knowledge of the future. I see no way around that.

While familiar with this line of reasoning, I do not see how it applies to the freedom of the human will.

If you read the OP it's about God's will. I'm just applying the same line of reasoning to God's free will that is used for human free will. If the future can be known then it cannot be changed. Otherwise what was thought to be known was mistaken. Therefore an omniscient God cannot also be an omnipotent God.

 

[steve_bank]

TheChristian narrative, at least one of them

1. God creates humans endowed with free will
2. Got sets rules
3. Humans who obey are rewarded eternally
4. Humans who disobey are punished eternally


Free will is essential for Christians, otherwise they are obedient automations
Not unlike Greek mythology and I believe Hindu as well.

 

[Politesse]

TheChristian narrative, at least one of them

1. God creates humans endowed with free will
2. Got sets rules
3. Humans who obey are rewarded eternally
4. Humans who disobey are punished eternally


Free will is essential for Christians, otherwise they are obedient automations
Not unlike Greek mythology and I believe Hindu as well.

Free will versus predestination (election) is very famously a point of vigorous internal argument between Christians of varying branches.

 

[Treedbear]

TheChristian narrative, at least one of them

1. God creates humans endowed with free will
2. Got sets rules
3. Humans who obey are rewarded eternally
4. Humans who disobey are punished eternally


Free will is essential for Christians, otherwise they are obedient automations
Not unlike Greek mythology and I believe Hindu as well.

Free will versus predestination (election) is very famously a point of vigorous internal argument between Christians of varying branches.

It's almost what you'd expect if they worshipped different Gods.