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Fun With William Lane Craig

Cheerful Charlie

Cheerful Charlie

Contributor
Joined
Nov 10, 2005
Messages
9,035
Location
Houston, Texas
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
As many here know, William Lane Craig is one of the world's best known
Christian apologists. He runs a site Reasonable Faith. He has a feature,
Question Of The Week, where people ask his opinion on various Biblical
issues. So I decided to ask him a good question. I suspect he will not be
featuring my question as the Question Of The Week, but I tried anyway.

My Question

in John 14:15, we read the words of Jesus, "If you love me keep
my commandments". The we have the commands in Mark 10, Luke
12, 14, 18, and Matthew 19, "Sell all you have and give to the poor".
Which few Christians follow. It would seem most Christian have no
intention of following the commands of Jesus as commanded in
the gospels. And we have the supporting verses, "You cannot serve
God and mammon" etc. As an atheist, I find it odd that so many
Christians demand all take the Bible seriously, when few Christians
take these commands of Jesus seriously

Do you are to comment on this issue?
 
We have right winged legislatures nationwide wanting to
mandate displaying the ten commandments in every classroom,
because Jesus commanded we follow them. But the last part of his
commands, "Sell all you have and give to the poor", get left out.
This makes me laugh. It isn't really about religion and following
the commands of Jesus, is it?
 
Cheerful Charlie said:
As many here know, William Lane Craig is one of the world's best known
Christian apologists. He runs a site Reasonable Faith. He has a feature,
Question Of The Week, where people ask his opinion on various Biblical
issues. So I decided to ask him a good question. I suspect he will not be
featuring my question as the Question Of The Week, but I tried anyway.

My Question

in John 14:15, we read the words of Jesus, "If you love me keep
my commandments". The we have the commands in Mark 10, Luke
12, 14, 18, and Matthew 19, "Sell all you have and give to the poor".
Which few Christians follow. It would seem most Christian have no
intention of following the commands of Jesus as commanded in
the gospels. And we have the supporting verses, "You cannot serve
God and mammon" etc. As an atheist, I find it odd that so many
Christians demand all take the Bible seriously, when few Christians
take these commands of Jesus seriously

Do you are to comment on this issue?
Click to expand...
The text is inerrant, but you’re not.
So your interpretation must be the problem.

/cannedcreo
 
I want to see WLC squirm trying to weasel out of this command.
That and prayer in school, prayer at every government meeting,
prayer before every big sporting event.

Matthew 6:5-6
Prayer is to be done in private, not publically.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Come on you Christians! Get with the program!
 
And, religious oaths.

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old
time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the
Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for
it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; f
or it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not
make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for
whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

So the Christian Natianalists want every school child to recite
the pledge of allegiance in school. With it;s "under God""
addition. A religious oath. Not to mention all these politicians
being sworn in on a Bible, "So Help Me God". And swearing on
a Bible in courts.

Every Christian seems to be doing this commands of Jesus
bit wrong.

Again, John 14:15
"If you love me, keep my commandments".
 
Cheerful Charlie said:
As many here know, William Lane Craig is one of the world's best known
Christian apologists. He runs a site Reasonable Faith. He has a feature,
Question Of The Week, where people ask his opinion on various Biblical
issues. So I decided to ask him a good question. I suspect he will not be
featuring my question as the Question Of The Week, but I tried anyway.

My Question

in John 14:15, we read the words of Jesus, "If you love me keep
my commandments". The we have the commands in Mark 10, Luke
12, 14, 18, and Matthew 19, "Sell all you have and give to the poor".
Which few Christians follow. It would seem most Christian have no
intention of following the commands of Jesus as commanded in
the gospels. And we have the supporting verses, "You cannot serve
God and mammon" etc. As an atheist, I find it odd that so many
Christians demand all take the Bible seriously, when few Christians
take these commands of Jesus seriously
Click to expand...
1) Who cares? WLC isn't the overseer for all Christians.
2) Catholics worship Mary, Protestants worship Paul. Jesus takes a back seat to most Christians (and his alleged holy book).
 
The U.S. divorce rate suggests that there are plenty of Christians who ignore JC's teachings on divorce, which he allowed, as I understand it, only on the grounds of sexual immorality or desertion by an unbelieving spouse.
The delightful Kim Davis of Kentucky, once upon a time a court clerk, denied gays marriage certificates because she said this went against God's plan for marriage. She herself has been, at this count, married four times to three different men. She certainly knows enough about marriage to instruct us all. (Happy ending to the story: she was sued by some of the gays she refused to serve, lost the case last fall, and is looking at a judgment of about $350,000.)
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Cheerful Charlie said:
As many here know, William Lane Craig is one of the world's best known
Christian apologists. He runs a site Reasonable Faith. He has a feature,
Question Of The Week, where people ask his opinion on various Biblical
issues. So I decided to ask him a good question. I suspect he will not be
featuring my question as the Question Of The Week, but I tried anyway.

My Question

in John 14:15, we read the words of Jesus, "If you love me keep
my commandments". The we have the commands in Mark 10, Luke
12, 14, 18, and Matthew 19, "Sell all you have and give to the poor".
Which few Christians follow. It would seem most Christian have no
intention of following the commands of Jesus as commanded in
the gospels. And we have the supporting verses, "You cannot serve
God and mammon" etc. As an atheist, I find it odd that so many
Christians demand all take the Bible seriously, when few Christians
take these commands of Jesus seriously
Click to expand...
1) Who cares? WLC isn't the overseer for all Christians.
2) Catholics worship Mary, Protestants worship Paul. Jesus takes a back seat to most Christians (and his alleged holy book).
Click to expand...

The fun part about ol' Willy boy is he has a site inviting weekly questions. I don't have many hopes he will feature my question, but I tried to engage him. Just a fun little attempt on my part to ask something for which there is no real good answer.
 
The problem is the question is a bit too simplistic and judgmental. There are a number of ways to push the question off to the side. WLC has been around too long to not have a handwave to that. In fact, apologia has been around for so long, most of the questions have responses. I won't say answers, but there are responses.

My main criticism would be it can be equated to a targeted personal attack on Christians and it doesn't address the authority of the actual command or commander. At worst, you have demonstrated that Christians don't follow the rules, but we already know that with Sunday being the day of their Sabbath... and they don't remotely treat it as holy. It is the known secret of Christians, they redacted the Tanakh in their own image.

Honestly, that would also be my angle. The Sabbath isn't merely a day or a ritual. It is part of the Commandments. And it is to be taken seriously. Yet, Christians moved it and just wake up early and go to a building. It is hard to find a justification for openly violating a commandment. Though, as I noted, the apologia will have a response. Won't be adequate, but there will be a response.
 
The point is to see if WLC will take up the question, and how he will deflect this.
And it will be an avoidance of acknowledging the commands of Jesus do mandate
selling all one has and giving to the poor. Then I can take on the approach WLC
attempts to use.
To be sure, the true believers will mostly accept any dodge, but not all. And
noting Jesus makes commands nobody wants to follow takes all the fun out
of being a hard core evangelical or fundamentalist. Biblical literalism.

I am beginning to think I need to write up some nice PDFs, set up a website and
play this hard. With the rise ion Christian nationalists and their political buddies
cramming that nonsense into our laws, the way to deal with it all long term
is to take the fun right out of demanding we be a Christian nation. And of course
aim for young folks. It would be nice if some time in the future, every kid at at 12
knows Jesus commands poverty, private prayer, and other little commands that
take the fun right out of being a hard core Christian.

and take this to our posturing politicians. Politician X bellows we need more prayer
in school and more God in our society. Put him on the spot. "Have you,
Politician X, following the commands of Jesus sold all you have and given the
proceeds to the poor? No? Then you are not a true Christian. Shut up, you spiritual
counterfeit!".

An atheist yearly ritual. E-mailing a PDF to governors, legislators et all, demanding
they follow the commands of Jesus or stop trying to cram religion down our throats.

Make a jolly, fun packed campaign out of this to take all the fun out of braying
about more God in our nation's laws, schools, et al.

Jesus commands
Sell all you have
No Public Prayer
No religious oaths.
Lend to all that ask and do not expect repayment.
Help the hungry, the thirst, the naked, the prisoner, or burn.
 
Cheerful Charlie said:
My Question

in John 14:15, we read the words of Jesus, "If you love me keep
my commandments". The we have the commands in Mark 10, Luke
12, 14, 18, and Matthew 19, "Sell all you have and give to the poor".
Which few Christians follow. It would seem most Christian have no
intention of following the commands of Jesus as commanded in
the gospels. And we have the supporting verses, "You cannot serve
God and mammon" etc. As an atheist, I find it odd that so many
Christians demand all take the Bible seriously, when few Christians
take these commands of Jesus seriously

Do you are to comment on this issue?
Click to expand...

I don't think there is ANY other religion that is even remotely filled with hypocrisy the way Christianity is. Some Jews may be intolerant but their Torah preaches intolerance.

Some Muslims may embrace violence and terrorism, but this is endorsed to some extent by their founder and his teaching:
... during his time in Mecca, Mohammed and his small band of believers had little success in converting others to this new religion. So, a decade after Mohammed first began preaching, he fled to Medina. Over time he cobbled together a militia and began to wage wars.

Anyone seeking support for armed jihad in the name of Allah will find ample support in the passages in the Quran and Hadith that relate to Mohammed’s Medina period. For example, Q4:95 states, “Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home).” Q8:60 advises Muslims “to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know.” Finally, Q9:29 instructs Muslims: “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Click to expand...

But Christianity? The New Testament prescribes love and giving. Yet many of today's American Christians think their religion is about hatred and taking.
 
Swammerdami said:
Cheerful Charlie said:
My Question

in John 14:15, we read the words of Jesus, "If you love me keep
my commandments". The we have the commands in Mark 10, Luke
12, 14, 18, and Matthew 19, "Sell all you have and give to the poor".
Which few Christians follow. It would seem most Christian have no
intention of following the commands of Jesus as commanded in
the gospels. And we have the supporting verses, "You cannot serve
God and mammon" etc. As an atheist, I find it odd that so many
Christians demand all take the Bible seriously, when few Christians
take these commands of Jesus seriously

Do you are to comment on this issue?
Click to expand...

I don't think there is ANY other religion that is even remotely filled with hypocrisy the way Christianity is. Some Jews may be intolerant but their Torah preaches intolerance.

Some Muslims may embrace violence and terrorism, but this is endorsed to some extent by their founder and his teaching:
... during his time in Mecca, Mohammed and his small band of believers had little success in converting others to this new religion. So, a decade after Mohammed first began preaching, he fled to Medina. Over time he cobbled together a militia and began to wage wars.

Anyone seeking support for armed jihad in the name of Allah will find ample support in the passages in the Quran and Hadith that relate to Mohammed’s Medina period. For example, Q4:95 states, “Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home).” Q8:60 advises Muslims “to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know.” Finally, Q9:29 instructs Muslims: “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
Click to expand...

But Christianity? The New Testament prescribes love and giving. Yet many of today's American Christians think their religion is about hatred and taking.
Click to expand...
The overriding trait of bad faith throughout history has been sabotaging ideas to help people co-exist and help one another in a general way with whatever message empowers and enriches the messengers.

If you want to find the people most vigorously living the morals and teachings of whichever original prophet (as opposed to the johnny-come-lately crowd), you're never going to find them in a church. More likely you will find them among those the church finds most "heretical".
 
T.G.G. Moogly said:
WLC is hypocrisy on steroids. I learned a long time ago that it is impossible to shame a hypocrite.
Click to expand...
Especially one who gets a lot of money and fame from their hypocrisy.
I don't think Craig even sees it. People keep telling him how great he is and giving him money. That'll put blinders on anyone.
Tom
 
I googled the issue of Jesus and the relinquishing of possessions to see what the apologists do with it. There are several arguments I found on Christian sites:
1- A command to the rich young man is not a command to all; Jesus recommended a monastic lifestyle to his disciples and to wanna-be disciples, but this does mean that he thought every person he met must do it;
2- In texts such as Luke 19:1-10, he praises Zacchaeus and says salvation has come to his household, although the Z-man has given up 50% of his property to help the poor, not all of it. (Other, similar examples are cited, both with Jesus and Paul making the assessment of virtue);
3- I Timothy 5:8: "If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than the unbelievers."
That is roughly what Craig might say.
A much crazier statement of Jesus, found in several gospels, is the business of "Whatever you ask in my name, I will do for you," which is unqualified when Jesus says it, but always qualified when the apologists explain it. And they can explain that one away without coming out of a nap. Oh, of course Jesus didn't mean it the way it sounds!! Of course it has to be a request that conforms to his divine will, etc., etc. Even though, statistically, prayer is a shitty way to heal yourself of an illness -- and most especially, an amputation -- so shitty that some religious types argue that God simply doesn't grant intercessory prayer requests. These guys know how to weave and dodge like Michael Friggin' Jordan.
 
The thing about bad apologists is, if one can get them to bloviate on an
issue that exposes them as clueless on an issue, it makes for good quoting
for arguing a point. If WLC tries to argue Jesus didn't really mean Christians
had to sell all they have and give to the poor, being a well known and "respected"
apologist that sort of means that Christianity is not attractive if you
take the words of Jesus seriously. And one can then challenge other apologists.
"WLC did not offer a defense, what do you Dr. X say?" Can you do better?
Often they cannot. It gets me banned from some sites. Such as apologist
David Armstrong who some years ago went out of his way to attack me for
posts I made not on his site, but another site. He soon regretted it when I went
to his site and swept his straw men aside and started giving good arguments
he did not want to deal with. Armstrong then posted copiously elsewhere but
put me on ignore, much to the derision and laughter of others.
 
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