Future of human genetic engineering, class divides, and race divides

[Nice Squirrel]

So people who study intelligence state that variations are genetic? How would they know without providing the same environment for different control groups?

There seems to be an inherent confirmation bias.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I am not paid by the Pioneer Fund,

But you will find that many of the people you will be quoting and their findings were.

 

[ApostateAbe]

What are the characteristics of race? Have these characteristics held constant over the years spent studying race? What changes, if any, have occurred and why?
What are the characteristics of g? Have these characteristics held constant over the years spent studying g? What changes, if any, have occurred and why?

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BTW

Race: The Power of an Illusion

Races vary in the tendencies of nearly every genotypic aspect, either a little or a lot, from what I have learned. There are racial variations not just in skin, but in the immune system, digestive system, skeletal system, respiratory system and nervous system.

"Have these characteristics held constant over the years spent studying race?"

Are you asking about my own years spent studying race? The answer is no. I started with the idea that race is only skin deep, and genetic variations in race don't exist except for superficial things. It did kinda conflict with the co-existing knowledge that Native Americans were nearly wiped out largely by lacking immune systems to cope with European epidemics, and my own study was about resolving those conflicts and enhancing it with further knowledge as summarized that fully conflicted with the high school model of race. I didn't know anything about "g" until I started researching the topic a few years ago.

 

[dismal]

So people who study intelligence state that variations are genetic? How would they know without providing the same environment for different control groups?

There seems to be an inherent confirmation bias.

So you accept that there are variations in intelligence?

 

[ApostateAbe]

I am not paid by the Pioneer Fund, so I will use my own words (not that you should trust me). A "race" is a subset of a species with a tendency of a common geographic ancestry. Members of a race tend to have genetic frequencies more in common with members of their own race and less in common with members of other races. The concept of race is an essential component of evolutionarily theory, as evolutionary divergence and speciation would be impossible without it. I use the words "tend" and "frequencies" to distinguish it from how race is conceptualized among ideologues. There are no discrete absolute boundaries among the races, but it is all spectral, as breeds of dogs.

Your teachers did tell you back in grade school that you aren't suppose to use a word in the definition of the word, right?

Maybe I should have put a line break between the definition and the clarification of the definition? I will take further questions from you when I regain my patience (can't say when that will be).

 

[Bronzeage]

It is all well and good to desire future generations to be smarter than us, but we aren't smart enough to recognise what will be smart, before it is demonstrated. There is a natural human tendency to over value that in which we have over invested. If we genetically engineer smarter humans, we will believe them to be smarter, whether they are, or not.

Smart, huh?

 

[ApostateAbe]

I don't mean to deprive you of sources. If you want to look up a source for what I am saying, then specify, and I will be happy to provide a source.

Ok, let's start with this one:

Regardless of current popular beliefs, we are on course for a sharp clash with reality. As much we may believe that intelligence has nothing to do with genetics, the science is plain, and psychologists who specialize in intelligence are nearly unanimous on the point that intelligence variations among humans really are mostly genetic.

Sure. Since that request is for a claim about what academics believe and not for why the claim is true, maybe a quote from SparkNotes would be sufficient.

http://m.sparknotes.com/psychology/psych101/intelligence/section3.rhtml

"Estimates of the heritability of intelligence vary, depending on the methods used. Most researchers believe that heritability of intelligence is between 60 percent and 80 percent."

A little more relevant and interesting, though, is the data that backs this claim.

I scanned from a book an illustration of IQ correlation coefficients (r) of family relationships including identical twins reared apart. The greater the r, the greater the tendency to be alike. The figure shows that shared household makes for a small increase in r but shared genes make a large increase in r. Note the large jump in r between DZ (non-identical) twins and MZ (identical) twins. DZ twins share as much DNA (50%) as any typical sibling pair, but they share the same womb and same family upbringing.

Source: Bodmer, Walter F. "Race and IQ: The Genetic Background." Ed. Ashley Montagu. Race and IQ. New York: Oxford UP, 2002. p. 326. Data extracted from Erlenmeyer-Kimling and Jarvik.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

And to state my position on race and intelligence: I am very skeptical of all attempts to categorize intelligence in attempts to pull it out of its social and environmental context. While there may be an overall difference in arbitrary intelligence measurements between races, no research has shown this to be significant absent of different social and environmental base lines and in fact appears to favors a greater environmental impact on these arbitrary measurements.

For example Bill Gates is seen as an intelligent guy. He was given the best tutors, etc.. He may do very well on the IQ tests. Now what if he was malnourished as a child? Had to endure the stress of war over a long period of time? Had to go work in a factory when he was ten years-old? What if he was locked in a room and had no mental stimulation? How would these affect his intelligence? What if he was raised in an environment that promoted paranoia around test taking?

None of these are genetic factors, yet all can affect the arbitrary measurements of intelligence testing.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

So people who study intelligence state that variations are genetic? How would they know without providing the same environment for different control groups?

There seems to be an inherent confirmation bias.

So you accept that there are variations in intelligence?

I am arguing that measuring intelligence is arbitrary (since it is trying to set a single comparative point of a multivariate set of measurements -- think of the various ways we can measure intelligence including social awareness, adaptability, mechanical, situational, recall of facts, complex mathematics, etc.) and there are variations between individuals that are due to many factors genetic and environmental. People that are smart in some measurements are dumb in others, but to just try to make judgements on people based upon what the researcher considers "important" could make a low-functioning autistic human "highly intelligent" as long as they fit the right criteria is highly dubious to me.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

It is all well and good to desire future generations to be smarter than us, but we aren't smart enough to recognise what will be smart, before it is demonstrated. There is a natural human tendency to over value that in which we have over invested. If we genetically engineer smarter humans, we will believe them to be smarter, whether they are, or not.

Smart, huh?

Agreed.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

And to state my position on race and intelligence: I am very skeptical of all attempts to categorize intelligence in attempts to pull it out of its social and environmental context. While there may be an overall difference in arbitrary intelligence measurements between races, no research has shown this to be significant absent of different social and environmental base lines and in fact appears to favors a greater environmental impact on these arbitrary measurements.

For example Bill Gates is seen as an intelligent guy. He was given the best tutors, etc.. He may do very well on the IQ tests. Now what if he was malnourished as a child? Had to endure the stress of war over a long period of time? Had to go work in a factory when he was ten years-old? What if he was locked in a room and had no mental stimulation? How would these affect his intelligence? What if he was raised in an environment that promoted paranoia around test taking?

None of these are genetic factors, yet all can affect the arbitrary measurements of intelligence testing.

Fair points all.

Maturation is definitely heavily influenced by genetics (development of balance, sphincter control, onset of puberty), learning is a whole other kettle of fish with many more variables involved.

 

[dismal]

So you accept that there are variations in intelligence?

I am arguing that measuring intelligence is arbitrary (since it is trying to set a single comparative point of a multivariate set of measurements -- think of the various ways we can measure intelligence including social awareness, adaptability, mechanical, situational, recall of facts, complex mathematics, etc.) and there are variations between individuals that are due to many factors genetic and environmental. People that are smart in some measurements are dumb in others, but to just try to make judgements on people based upon what the researcher considers "important" could make a low-functioning autistic human "highly intelligent" as long as they fit the right criteria is highly dubious to me.

Are you saying some people are indeed smarter than others but we are incapable of measuring these differences?

Or that we can measure differences but we should not attribute them necessarily to genetics?

 

[arkirk]

What are the characteristics of race? Have these characteristics held constant over the years spent studying race? What changes, if any, have occurred and why?
What are the characteristics of g? Have these characteristics held constant over the years spent studying g? What changes, if any, have occurred and why?

- - - Updated - - -

BTW

Race: The Power of an Illusion

Races vary in the tendencies of nearly every genotypic aspect, either a little or a lot, from what I have learned. There are racial variations not just in skin, but in the immune system, digestive system, skeletal system, respiratory system and nervous system.

"Have these characteristics held constant over the years spent studying race?"

Are you asking about my own years spent studying race? The answer is no. I started with the idea that race is only skin deep, and genetic variations in race don't exist except for superficial things. It did kinda conflict with the co-existing knowledge that Native Americans were nearly wiped out largely by lacking immune systems to cope with European epidemics, and my own study was about resolving those conflicts and enhancing it with further knowledge as summarized that fully conflicted with the high school model of race. I didn't know anything about "g" until I started researching the topic a few years ago.

In the OP there is a remark to the effect that breeding for quality is very slow. For about the last forty years, I have embraced a concept that seems generally lacking in any discussion of human "quality" and "intelligence" that I believe deserves primacy in any consideration such as the OP suggests. Most people's conceptualization of intelligence or quality are so highly influenced by culture, they are absolutely meaningless. What is almost always ignored is that the best we can do when we consider a person's intelligence is to assess how similarly another person's brain function replicates our own. The narcissistic standard remains, no matter how we shift the test parameters.

We mature relative to our experience and exposures. All these tests do is measure how much a person's conceptualization processes match those of the person or persons devising the test. Before we could even begin to systematize some sort of super human breeding scheme or genetic engineering scheme for human intelligence or "quality," we had better realize that our ideas about intelligence are entirely subjective.

We still seem unaware of the fact that the best we can do is to maintain a society in which none are unreasonably handicapped by poor nutrition, a poor social environment, and socially determined cultural beliefs that become integrated into our rational infrastructure...ie. racism, sexism, religion, etc. These things, we can unknowingly integrate into our world view where they can influence virtually every aspect of our lives. Communication of individual personal insights is central to the development of our technology and our civilization.

Before you can set out to engineer people, you have to first establish what you are engineering for and it seems that really about all we can recognize outside of outright organic diseases is some standard of health and nutrition. Do not be too quick characterize views of the world contrary to your own as necessarily wrong or unintelligent. So what has this to do with genetics? Just this: It is dangerous to assume we can engineer the intelligence of the human race.

 

[Sarpedon]

Of course upper class white people tend to score better on tests written by upper class white scientists. I remember one question used as an example of bias was an analogy question, where it is asked what is analogous to 'regatta.' If there is ever a word that persons of one class would know while others would not, it's 'regatta.' No matter how smart he or she is, a child growing up in a poor family would have little reason to know that word. If the function of the question is to test the ability to understand analogies, then one shouldn't write the question that presupposes a certain vocabulary. While size of vocabulary might be related to intelligence, which words are known is obviously cultural.

And that bit about the twins reared apart...don't most people adopt within their own race and class? We have significant numbers of people in america who adopt from other countries, but we also have had, for a long time, a policy of race matching in adoption within the country...a policy that I seem to recall receiving some pretty heavy criticism lately. So how is assuming that whether or not twins are reared apart somehow corrects for environmental factors, if both households are of similar socioeconomic conditions?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

What does smart mean?

 

[ApostateAbe]

I think the same thing that makes breeding time-consuming also makes testing results of genetic engineering time-consuming: you might identify a gene for intelligence, but only way to validate the hypothesis and ensure there aren't unwanted side effects is to apply it and wait until the kids grow up so you can test them. Plus, you'd have a harder time finding people who'd want their kids to be experimental.... even rich people might want their kids to be smarter than average, rich people themselves also have a very high opinion of their own intelligence, so I don't see them flocking to experimental genetic treatments that may or may not increase intelligence.

I think the process will start with identifying and replacing genes associated with hereditary diseases. When that becomes commonplace, those wo can afford it will look into positive improvements. But it will take a relatively long time still.

You are speaking of obstacles, but they seem to be short-term obstacles. Genetically-engineered people will have the genes not just for extraordinary intelligence but also genes for extraordinary health, beauty and long life. These people will have accomplishments and will be publicly known to be genetically engineered, and, after a dive into the unknown by a few adventurous parents, it is a gamble that any smart capitalist would be willing to take.

 

[ksen]

What does smart mean?

street smarts or book smarts?

 

[Bronzeage]

What does smart mean?

I remember a 60 Minutes segment from many years ago, which interviewed several Autistic Savants(once called Idiot Savants). One of them could calculate the day of the week, given any date in history. He also remembered the weather for everyday of his life, from around age two and up. He was correct for every answer given. Beyond these talents, he could not function in the real world. When Morely Safer asked him how he performed these feats, he replied, "Because I am smart."

 

[ApostateAbe]

Bed time for me (I am vacationing in Polynesia).

 

[dismal]

What does smart mean?

street smarts or book smarts?

Pick whichever you want. Do you agree some people have more of it than others?