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Gay press loses its mind when it discovers gay man starting a male-only camping club

Most kinks and fetishes are not harmful, and thus aren't pathological. That, however, doesn't make them normal, and it doesn't support forcibly trying to normalize them.

And it absolutely does not in any way excuse this ridiculous attempt to cast exclusive sexual orientation as a fetish.

If they aren't harmful and are practiced in private why should society care?

For the most part, nobody does care.

Although, I personally do find the conflation of kinks and fetishes with homosexuality to be confusing. Like, Pride parades nowadays seem to be a lot more about flagrantly flaunting one's bedroom kinks than it is about acceptance of homosexual relationships as just normal human love. I have a relative who is a "pony boy"... and as far as I can tell, to him that is completely 100% synonymous with being gay. That baffles me, because I've also got many older relatives and friends who are gay and lesbian... and they're just normal everyday people. If they have particular kinks, they keep them to themselves, because they belong in the bedroom not in public streets. But to my pony boy relative... it seems that his perspective is that it is impossible for me to accept him as gay without being 100% supportive of him prancing around parades in hooves, wearing a bit, and with a dildo "tail" shoved up his ass. I don't think the two things are synonymous though. So whatever. I don't care that he dresses up like a horse to get off. I'm not particularly on board with him doing it in public and talking about it in front of young children though.
 
I am very strongly opposed to any situation that places the *feelings* of some people above the sexual boundaries of others. I *especially* object when it is the feelings of male-bodied people being placed above the sexual boundaries of female humans, because on the whole female humans are weaker and smaller, and we already get sexually assaulted, abused, and raped at astonishing rates. Not all males harm females... but the people who harm females are almost always male.

So it's fine to mandate you wear a burka to prevent your feelings from intruding on the sexual boundaries of Muslim men?

If I'm in an explicitly muslim space, yes. I've gone to a few mosques, and I have no problem covering my head and sitting in a separate room. I'm the interloper in their space, and I conform to their expectations of propriety, even if I don't agree with them.
 
I think the proprietor was going out of his way to offend people. I think it smells of an attempt to get publicity.

It's certainly a possibility... but I'm not so sure that's the most likely answer.

There's a thing that has been going on among the lesbian community for quite some time now. Male-bodied people who identify as woman consider themselves to be "lesbians". There is a portion of transwomen who are attracted to females. And for a good while now, they've been infiltrating lesbian spaces, and hitting on female lesbians. They've been harassing, shaming, and deriding lesbians who do not want to have anything to do with their penises. This particular subset of transwomen view themselves as women, and because they're attracted to females, they believe that lesbians should also be attracted to them. They label female lesbians as bigots and transphobes if they aren't interested in having penis in vagina sex with them.

They even coined the term "the cotton ceiling". The politest interpretation of this says that lesbians will be supportive of transwomen in many ways, but that they draw the line at having sex with them... and that transwomen want those lesbians to "examine their inherent bigotry" in not wanting to have sex with penises. The more blunt interpretation is that it's a direct reference to "the glass ceiling" with respect to women in business and politics - something that needs to be "broken through" in order to gain equality... only here the thing that needs to be "broken through" is the cotton gusset of women's underwear. Oh, it's also interesting to note that the term was coined by a transgender pornographer who was displeased that they couldn't get work in lesbian productions... because they had a penis.

Over the years, the pressure on lesbians - especially young lesbians - to accept penises into their pool of potential sex partners has been increasing. Enough so that a fairly large number of lesbians have been leaving the alphabet soup community altogether.

For the most part, gay men have been a bit insulated from this phenomenon. In part, I think, it's because males aren't as likely to feel physically intimidated by a female, no matter how masculine they might present. Females are smaller and weaker, even after taking testosterone. So at the end of the day, transmen simply don't present a risk to gay males in the same way that transwomen do to lesbian females. I also, however, think that gay men have been sheltered because most females are conditioned to be unobtrusive and to give way before males. It's only been relatively recently that some transmen who consider themselves to be gay men with a "front hole" have started getting pushy toward gay men and insisting that gay males are "transphobic bigots" if they don't want to have sex with them.

Personally, I don't find it particularly surprising that males are a lot more vocal about not wanting to accept obvious bullshit. Males are generally (not always, not all males) conditioned to feel entitled to speak up for their wants, to be loud and pushy and to take up space.

I have it on good authority that a lot of female lesbians are very happy that *finally* the gay males are having this problem, so maybe something will get done about it and they won't be left facing this particular menace to their personal and sexual boundaries all by themselves.

We have a similar situation in the Swedish queer scene. Women only meetings are increasingly dominated by trans women not letting the CIS women get a word in edgewise, and they're too woke to do anything about it. And just sit cringing uncomfortably too polite to interrupt.

But I don't think the problems is the transexuals. I think the problem is the woke ideology and what the ideology leads to. It's a victim culture where whoever is the biggest victim, their needs, should trump the lesser marginalized minorities. To have high status it's a race to the bottom where everybody tries to be the most victim. And if the mostest victims needs aren't catered to by the others then they're bigoted and exclusionary and should be ashamed of themselves. And in the current woke narrative blacks and transexuals are the mostest victims so get a free pass to make ridiculous demands that the wokes just swallow.

I've been to so many functions over the years where there's a transexual speaker and the audience applauds him or her for his/her bravery and then they just spew a bunch of incoherrent nonsense. And I'm thinking, aha, a token, clearly not chosen as a speaker for what they have to say, how sad.

I heard Buck Angel speak in 2011 at Stockholm gay pride. Afterwards I just wanted to hug him for not wasting my time with the regular bullshit. His talk was awesome. It just reminded me of how rare it is in these woke environments.
 
Wouldn't that mean that Jarhyn isn't gay at all, but is a straight male? Or maybe bisexual, I guess. Or pansexual nowadays. Either way, not gay.

There's a reason I prefer the word "queer".

Maybe in clinical settings more precision is required, but mostly the vagueness of queer I find inclusive and therefore preferable.
Tom

I struggle with queer, because it wraps up so many things that aren't actually related to each other. It frequently ends up tossing sexual orientation, gender identity, and kinks & fetishes all into one ball as if they're all closely related things. I mean, my lesbian-retired-cop aunt is a bog-standard homeowner who does woodworking and happens to like boobs a lot. She really has nothing at all in common with my heterosexual cousin who is super-big into furries. Calling them both "queer" seems a lot more othering to me than anything else. It's like it takes everything that isn't "missionary-position-cis-hetero-normative" and lumps it all together.

Also, though, queer theory is bullshit, so...
 
I struggle with queer, because it wraps up so many things that aren't actually related to each other.
I kinda get that. But to me it's the point. It's vague, without a clear meaning. It's just everyone that doesn't fit the whitebread heterosexual normal. And it's very relative, some behaviours and attitudes are a lot more queer than others.

Perhaps you also struggle with the word because it has so much baggage. For most of our lives it was an all purpose derogatory term, queer meant unacceptably bad.

It frequently ends up tossing sexual orientation, gender identity, and kinks & fetishes all into one ball as if they're all closely related things.

Like I said, it's relative. But queer is outside the norms. So is deviant, but I think it would be even more difficult to reclaim that word. It's too closely associated with criminally deviating, like child molestation or snuff films.
IMHO.
Tom
 
I am very strongly opposed to any situation that places the *feelings* of some people above the sexual boundaries of others. I *especially* object when it is the feelings of male-bodied people being placed above the sexual boundaries of female humans, because on the whole female humans are weaker and smaller, and we already get sexually assaulted, abused, and raped at astonishing rates. Not all males harm females... but the people who harm females are almost always male.

So it's fine to mandate you wear a burka to prevent your feelings from intruding on the sexual boundaries of Muslim men?

If I'm in an explicitly muslim space, yes. I've gone to a few mosques, and I have no problem covering my head and sitting in a separate room. I'm the interloper in their space, and I conform to their expectations of propriety, even if I don't agree with them.

And the camp is the space of it's owner. He gets to decide where the boundaries are, you decide if you're willing to comply or you don't enter.

(And note I said burka, not hajib. You're talking about a hajib.)
 
I struggle with queer, because it wraps up so many things that aren't actually related to each other.
I kinda get that. But to me it's the point. It's vague, without a clear meaning. It's just everyone that doesn't fit the whitebread heterosexual normal. And it's very relative, some behaviours and attitudes are a lot more queer than others.

Perhaps you also struggle with the word because it has so much baggage. For most of our lives it was an all purpose derogatory term, queer meant unacceptably bad.

It frequently ends up tossing sexual orientation, gender identity, and kinks & fetishes all into one ball as if they're all closely related things.

Like I said, it's relative. But queer is outside the norms. So is deviant, but I think it would be even more difficult to reclaim that word. It's too closely associated with criminally deviating, like child molestation or snuff films.
IMHO.
Tom

I fucking hate the word queer, precisely because it is vague without a clear meaning. Worse, it's so vague that I think it's sometimes used (I have to say it, mostly by some kinds of straight women) who want to convey allyship with a particular cause without actually having any kind of non-heterosexual, non-mainstream orientation. When I was at uni way back in the late 1990s, the student gay and lesbian association (god knows what it would be called now) even specifically said any straight person who supports non-straight orientations is queer.

Someone at work told us, quite casually, that her 12 year old daughter was queer. I'm not sure I needed to know, but why did she think it was okay to disclose that about her daughter, but nothing about what was actually queer about her? It makes it seem like you are disclosing a disease, but don't want to be too graphic.
 
The discussion of a particular poster's sexuality has been removed.

Discuss the topic, not the person.
Stay away from insults - discuss the topic, not the person.

Thread remoiaing open for now, if it can get back on track and stay there.
 
If I'm in an explicitly muslim space, yes. I've gone to a few mosques, and I have no problem covering my head and sitting in a separate room. I'm the interloper in their space, and I conform to their expectations of propriety, even if I don't agree with them.

Really, it's this.
Propriety.

I've been churchy places like temples, mosques, and protestants. I do my very best to conform to their ways, whatever they are, even though they aren't my ways. Because it's their place and I behave like a guest in their place.

I see many private concerns in a similar fashion, including stores and offices. I don't care what the law says, I would avoid forcing myself on someone else against their will. I don't like Phillips' attitude or worldview, but he's clear about it. I wouldn't go there for anything at all, I don't care how good his brownies are. But I wouldn't try to force him to make something because it's an uncivilized thing to do.
Tom
 
It wasn't proper for "coloreds" to drink from "whites only" fountains. It wasn't proper for black people to sit at the whites only soda stand. It wasn't proper for black people to march for their rights.

No social progress has ever been made without demands.
 
It wasn't proper for "coloreds" to drink from "whites only" fountains. It wasn't proper for black people to sit at the whites only soda stand. It wasn't proper for black people to march for their rights.

No social progress has ever been made without demands.

I want to see FEMEN come into a mosque wearing proper clothing and then do their topless body paint thing.
 
It wasn't proper for "coloreds" to drink from "whites only" fountains. It wasn't proper for black people to sit at the whites only soda stand. It wasn't proper for black people to march for their rights.

No social progress has ever been made without demands.

It's not 1962 any more.

If the worst problems colored folks had then was cakes and campsites we wouldn't have needed MLKj for much.
Tom
 
It wasn't proper for "coloreds" to drink from "whites only" fountains. It wasn't proper for black people to sit at the whites only soda stand. It wasn't proper for black people to march for their rights.

No social progress has ever been made without demands.

I want to see FEMEN come into a mosque wearing proper clothing and then do their topless body paint thing.

Iran recognizes trans rights.
 
It wasn't proper for "coloreds" to drink from "whites only" fountains. It wasn't proper for black people to sit at the whites only soda stand. It wasn't proper for black people to march for their rights.

No social progress has ever been made without demands.

I want to see FEMEN come into a mosque wearing proper clothing and then do their topless body paint thing.

Iran recognizes trans rights.

In the worst and most twisted way possible by transing standard vanilla gays.
 
It wasn't proper for "coloreds" to drink from "whites only" fountains. It wasn't proper for black people to sit at the whites only soda stand. It wasn't proper for black people to march for their rights.

No social progress has ever been made without demands.

It's not 1962 any more.

If the worst problems colored folks had then was cakes and campsites we wouldn't have needed MLKj for much.
Tom

144473840_10223851221816808_1625498356572417463_n.jpg
 
Wouldn't that mean that Jarhyn isn't gay at all, but is a straight male? Or maybe bisexual, I guess. Or pansexual nowadays. Either way, not gay.

There's a reason I prefer the word "queer".

Maybe in clinical settings more precision is required, but mostly the vagueness of queer I find inclusive and therefore preferable.
Tom

I struggle with queer, because it wraps up so many things that aren't actually related to each other. It frequently ends up tossing sexual orientation, gender identity, and kinks & fetishes all into one ball as if they're all closely related things. I mean, my lesbian-retired-cop aunt is a bog-standard homeowner who does woodworking and happens to like boobs a lot. She really has nothing at all in common with my heterosexual cousin who is super-big into furries. Calling them both "queer" seems a lot more othering to me than anything else. It's like it takes everything that isn't "missionary-position-cis-hetero-normative" and lumps it all together.

Also, though, queer theory is bullshit, so...

Its a testament to how quickly and far we've come in a short time.

But gays and lesbians have always known they were only awkward allies. The last people in the world lesbians want to be around is any group of men. And vice versa. That's been a reoccurring joke in the scene forever.
 
It wasn't proper for "coloreds" to drink from "whites only" fountains. It wasn't proper for black people to sit at the whites only soda stand. It wasn't proper for black people to march for their rights.

No social progress has ever been made without demands.

You're now persecuting an already persecuted minority because they're trying to create a safe space for themselves. Well, done.
 
It wasn't proper for "coloreds" to drink from "whites only" fountains. It wasn't proper for black people to sit at the whites only soda stand. It wasn't proper for black people to march for their rights.

No social progress has ever been made without demands.

You're now persecuting an already persecuted minority because they're trying to create a safe space for themselves. Well, done.

No, we are rejecting claims of persecution made by a vocal minority who want to create a space in the places of others, to demand such a space, where they can exclude some women because they dislike the idea that people with penises can be women at all.

I dislike the insinuation that Kryptonite Iodine Sulphur, for instance, being in a space makes it less "safe".
 
It wasn't proper for "coloreds" to drink from "whites only" fountains. It wasn't proper for black people to sit at the whites only soda stand. It wasn't proper for black people to march for their rights.

No social progress has ever been made without demands.

You're now persecuting an already persecuted minority because they're trying to create a safe space for themselves. Well, done.

No, we are rejecting claims of persecution made by a vocal minority who want to create a space in the places of others, to demand such a space, where they can exclude some women because they dislike the idea that people with penises can be women at all.

I dislike the insinuation that Kryptonite Iodine Sulphur, for instance, being in a space makes it less "safe".

Who are you to tell others what their needs are? It's feelings. Other people's feelings don't have to make sense to you. Your choices are to either respect them or not. You're going with not respecting them. I hope you feel good about yourself.
 
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