Gay press loses its mind when it discovers gay man starting a male-only camping club

[DrZoidberg]

On the topic of safe spaces for gays. Lesbian bars are dying. And have been for over a decade.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/rise-and-fall-americas-lesbian-bars-180976801/

I chose to interpret that as evidence of gay acceptance in society and that lesbians see less of a need to have their own safe spaces than before. Which is nice.

It's the same development in Europe as well. So it's not just an American thing.

 

[Jarhyn]

On the topic of safe spaces for gays. Lesbian bars are dying. And have been for over a decade.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/rise-and-fall-americas-lesbian-bars-180976801/

I chose to interpret that as evidence of gay acceptance in society and that lesbians see less of a need to have their own safe spaces than before. Which is nice.

It's the same development in Europe as well. So it's not just an American thing.

Not really. It's because of a demographic variance insofar as that the people who hang out at lesbian bars generally don't drink enough to keep the doors open.

 

[Emily Lake]

I struggle with queer, because it wraps up so many things that aren't actually related to each other.

I kinda get that. But to me it's the point. It's vague, without a clear meaning. It's just everyone that doesn't fit the whitebread heterosexual normal. And it's very relative, some behaviours and attitudes are a lot more queer than others.

Perhaps you also struggle with the word because it has so much baggage. For most of our lives it was an all purpose derogatory term, queer meant unacceptably bad.

It frequently ends up tossing sexual orientation, gender identity, and kinks & fetishes all into one ball as if they're all closely related things.

Like I said, it's relative. But queer is outside the norms. So is deviant, but I think it would be even more difficult to reclaim that word. It's too closely associated with criminally deviating, like child molestation or snuff films.
IMHO.
Tom

Part of my problem with the term queer also has a lot to do with the "kinkification" of the Pride parades. And it turns out I'm not particularly fond or supportive of *public* kinks. Private is fine, I certainly have my own. But I don't see any good reason for the forced normalization. I have a relative who is homosexual and is also into pony play. Which is fine... except that for him the two are indistinguishable. In his mind, they're the exact same thing. To me, they aren't. The pony stuff is a kink that is unrelated to sexual orientation. He is a person with a horse kink, who also happens to be attracted to men. On the other hand, I've got relatives who are gay and who don't happen to be interested in dressing up like horses at all. They're completely different things... but it's so much a part of his identity, so intrinsic a piece of how he conceptualizes himself, that I find it worrisome. I don't think it's healthy to form so much of one's sense of self around such a narrow slice.

 

[Emily Lake]

If I'm in an explicitly muslim space, yes. I've gone to a few mosques, and I have no problem covering my head and sitting in a separate room. I'm the interloper in their space, and I conform to their expectations of propriety, even if I don't agree with them.

And the camp is the space of it's owner. He gets to decide where the boundaries are, you decide if you're willing to comply or you don't enter.

I agree? I thought you were arguing the other side of this.

(And note I said burka, not hajib. You're talking about a hajib.)

I've never been anywhere that required a burka as an element of that space. That's the closest I've been. If for some reason I went to an explicitly muslim space that required a burka, I would conform to that requirement. I might not stay there long, but I'd still do as in Rome.

 

[Emily Lake]

It wasn't proper for "coloreds" to drink from "whites only" fountains. It wasn't proper for black people to sit at the whites only soda stand. It wasn't proper for black people to march for their rights.

No social progress has ever been made without demands.

I want to see FEMEN come into a mosque wearing proper clothing and then do their topless body paint thing.

Iran recognizes trans rights.

Um... ONLY because they forbid homosexuality. Iran's vaunted support of trans rights is literally "trans the gay away". It is 100% conversion therapy. You either convert to the opposite sex or you die.

 

[Emily Lake]

It wasn't proper for "coloreds" to drink from "whites only" fountains. It wasn't proper for black people to sit at the whites only soda stand. It wasn't proper for black people to march for their rights.

No social progress has ever been made without demands.

You're now persecuting an already persecuted minority because they're trying to create a safe space for themselves. Well, done.

No, we are rejecting claims of persecution made by a vocal minority who want to create a space in the places of others, to demand such a space, where they can exclude some women because they dislike the idea that people with penises can be women at all.

I dislike the insinuation that Kryptonite Iodine Sulphur, for instance, being in a space makes it less "safe".

Behavior goes a really, really long way here. I have no problem with KrIS. I think KrIS is a pretty nice person, and she is very genial. I've enjoyed my interactions with her, and even when we don't agree, we can do so with civility and respect.

I don't think that KrIS makes a space less safe. I also don't think that ALL people are KrIS. Some of the posters here are 100% male and heterosexual, and I wouldn't give it a second thought if they were in a restroom with me, probably not even a locker room (beyond basic modesty). There have also been, in the past, some heterosexual female posters that I wouldn't have wanted to be in the same restaurant as. But that's the difference between knowing a person as an individual and a complete stranger picked at random.

Even though they are probably not a high risk, I wouldn't want Eddie Izzard to share a locker room with me. I cannot force myself to conceptualize Izzard as a woman in any way. I just can't. There've been some transwomen I've interacted with who I cannot perceive as women, and that's without even knowing what they look like - it's all in how they behave, especially how they behave toward women in general and how dismissive they are of women's concerns. They read as male. I've never perceived KrIS as anything other than a woman... and it's all in her behavior. If she hadn't volunteered information about her dysphoria, I would have assumed she was female.

There's a lot more to passing than make-up and performance. Some people actually have a true resonance with the opposite sex, they relate to them and can respect and understand them. They assimilate. Others not so much. Some people seem more like they want to appropriate than assimilate.

 

[Emily Lake]

On the topic of safe spaces for gays. Lesbian bars are dying. And have been for over a decade.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/rise-and-fall-americas-lesbian-bars-180976801/

I chose to interpret that as evidence of gay acceptance in society and that lesbians see less of a need to have their own safe spaces than before. Which is nice.

It's the same development in Europe as well. So it's not just an American thing.

From what I've heard from actual lesbians... that's not it. It's more that they get infiltrated. For a good while, gay spaces stayed explicitly gay - for homosexual men. You might get a random interloper there, a straight man who doesn't care or is there with friends, maybe the occasional woman there with a buddy. But for the most part, those were rare and were clearly exceptions who were there as guests.

Lesbian spaces have always faced more of a challenge. Partly, it's been straight men who see lesbians as an erotic fantasy and somehow think they can just waltz into a lesbian bar and pick up a couple of chicks who will perform for him. More recently... all of the lesbian spaces have been rebranded as "queer" spaces, so that they're more "inclusive". So they've been coerced into accepting people who are not lesbians into their spaces. My theory is it's because they're female... so they're accepted to "be nice" and "give way" and give in to other people's wants.

It's only been fairly recently that gay spaces are getting hit with the same "queering" and are being infiltrated by people who are not gay males.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Part of my problem with the term queer also has a lot to do with the "kinkification" of the Pride parades. And it turns out I'm not particularly fond or supportive of *public* kinks. Private is fine, I certainly have my own. But I don't see any good reason for the forced normalization. I have a relative who is homosexual and is also into pony play. Which is fine... except that for him the two are indistinguishable. In his mind, they're the exact same thing. To me, they aren't. The pony stuff is a kink that is unrelated to sexual orientation. He is a person with a horse kink, who also happens to be attracted to men. On the other hand, I've got relatives who are gay and who don't happen to be interested in dressing up like horses at all. They're completely different things... but it's so much a part of his identity, so intrinsic a piece of how he conceptualizes himself, that I find it worrisome. I don't think it's healthy to form so much of one's sense of self around such a narrow slice.

We no more are in control of what kinks we have than what our sexual alignment is.

The only question is how important the kinks are to our sexual response.

 

[Jarhyn]

Part of my problem with the term queer also has a lot to do with the "kinkification" of the Pride parades. And it turns out I'm not particularly fond or supportive of *public* kinks. Private is fine, I certainly have my own. But I don't see any good reason for the forced normalization. I have a relative who is homosexual and is also into pony play. Which is fine... except that for him the two are indistinguishable. In his mind, they're the exact same thing. To me, they aren't. The pony stuff is a kink that is unrelated to sexual orientation. He is a person with a horse kink, who also happens to be attracted to men. On the other hand, I've got relatives who are gay and who don't happen to be interested in dressing up like horses at all. They're completely different things... but it's so much a part of his identity, so intrinsic a piece of how he conceptualizes himself, that I find it worrisome. I don't think it's healthy to form so much of one's sense of self around such a narrow slice.

We no more are in control of what kinks we have than what our sexual alignment is.

The only question is how important the kinks are to our sexual response.

And like, honestly, it's more that whatever the kinky bit is is just one small piece of a much larger identity.

Imagine someone who has a fursuit fetish... That it doesn't matter; there just needs to be a fursuit involved. That's a sexual orientation. But they probably have a lot more adjacent things they like about, say, wearing or performing--though hopefully in a different--suit.

As I've said, some time gone now, there were a number of "girls" I've been interested in in my life. They all have beards and I know them by new names now, the ones I still know. They also we're not interested in me, and I'm alright with that.

 

[DrZoidberg]

On the topic of safe spaces for gays. Lesbian bars are dying. And have been for over a decade.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/rise-and-fall-americas-lesbian-bars-180976801/

I chose to interpret that as evidence of gay acceptance in society and that lesbians see less of a need to have their own safe spaces than before. Which is nice.

It's the same development in Europe as well. So it's not just an American thing.

Not really. It's because of a demographic variance insofar as that the people who hang out at lesbian bars generally don't drink enough to keep the doors open.

So what does that mean?

We can also interpret the prevalence of gay alcoholism as a coping method for marginalisation. Which points to the same result

 

[DrZoidberg]

On the topic of safe spaces for gays. Lesbian bars are dying. And have been for over a decade.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/rise-and-fall-americas-lesbian-bars-180976801/

I chose to interpret that as evidence of gay acceptance in society and that lesbians see less of a need to have their own safe spaces than before. Which is nice.

It's the same development in Europe as well. So it's not just an American thing.

From what I've heard from actual lesbians... that's not it. It's more that they get infiltrated. For a good while, gay spaces stayed explicitly gay - for homosexual men. You might get a random interloper there, a straight man who doesn't care or is there with friends, maybe the occasional woman there with a buddy. But for the most part, those were rare and were clearly exceptions who were there as guests.

Lesbian spaces have always faced more of a challenge. Partly, it's been straight men who see lesbians as an erotic fantasy and somehow think they can just waltz into a lesbian bar and pick up a couple of chicks who will perform for him. More recently... all of the lesbian spaces have been rebranded as "queer" spaces, so that they're more "inclusive". So they've been coerced into accepting people who are not lesbians into their spaces. My theory is it's because they're female... so they're accepted to "be nice" and "give way" and give in to other people's wants.

It's only been fairly recently that gay spaces are getting hit with the same "queering" and are being infiltrated by people who are not gay males.

In the Swedish gay scene the early 90'ies gay clubs had almost 50% straights, because it was the only place they had decent music. The gay identity and culture was extremely strong.

Walking in the gay pride march was a brave thing to do.
Then the club scene took off, as well as gay acceptance. The straights and techno loving queers went elsewhere. Gay clubs got the same music as any generic bar. By the 00'ies the gay identity and culture was almost dead. It has become indistinguishable from straight culture.

Today many gays shun the Stockholm gay pride march. They increasingly think gay culture is rediculous. Their numbers are replaced by straight woke liberal allies.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Stockholm gay pride parade is 50/50 straight today.

I've been to lesbian bars. I've been informed at the door that I'm welcome but that any flirting of any kind will get me thrown out. I've always been there with lesbian friends when celebrating something.

Fun factoid from Copenhagen. There's a Thai ladyboy brothel in Central Copenhagen where people just go for drinks. Not just men. It's a mixed crowd. Beer is reasonably priced.

Each night there would be a big table with obviously lesbian guests. One night I asked one of them why on Earth they came to a brothel for drinks. She just pointed to the doorman.

That explanation had never occurred to me. But brilliant

 

[repoman]

 

[DrZoidberg]

I love her. <3

 

[TomC]

Each night there would be a big table with obviously lesbian guests. One night I asked one of them why on Earth they came to a brothel for drinks. She just pointed to the doorman.

That explanation had never occurred to me. But brilliant

I'm too unsophisticated to understand the explanation.

Is it because they have a man to protect them?

Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

I love her. <3

She's pretty awesome, as was the late Magdalen Berns.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Each night there would be a big table with obviously lesbian guests. One night I asked one of them why on Earth they came to a brothel for drinks. She just pointed to the doorman.

That explanation had never occurred to me. But brilliant

I'm too unsophisticated to understand the explanation.

Is it because they have a man to protect them?

Tom

It's not just that it's a man protecting them. It's the kind of man.

In a brothel or strip club if you do any nonconsensual touching or any aggressive behaviour, not only will you get instantly thrown out, but you will get beaten up. The security staff of these sorts of establishments are ever vigilant and extremely fast, as well as brutal. The basis for their business is to attract and keep hot slutty exhibitionistic women who feel safe enough to promiscously flirty with customers. So they put a lot of effort in making the girls feel safe.

Strictly speaking it's terrorism. By overt displays of violence towards transgressors other guests are terrorized into obedience. It's a tried and tested method of social control in these kinds of establishments as old as the job itself. I think anybody who has ever been to one of these places is quickly made aware of how it works.

But it's completely one sided. Women will never have anything to fear from these guards. They're solely focused, (as they should) on keeping the men in check. So the lesbians at the brothel can be as rowdy as they like. It'll ever only be appreciated by the crowd in the brothel.

 

[TomC]

Strictly speaking it's terrorism. By overt displays of violence towards transgressors other guests are terrorized into obedience. It's a tried and tested method of social control in these kinds of establishments as old as the job itself. I think anybody who has ever been to one of these places is quickly made aware of how it works.

That's nothing like terrorism. That's just vigilant bouncers doing their job. All rowdy bars have those around here.

Remember that woman who got dragged out by the hair? Bouncers enforce whatever rules the establishment has by almost any means necessary.

Tom

 

[TomC]

What a hoot!
I rarely click on such links, but I'm glad I clicked on this one. She's hilariously pointed.

I totally understand her anger at Reddit. I don't do social media, I don't even Facebook. So I don't really know how accurate her assessment is. But, assuming it's reasonable, I totally get why she's mad.

Reddit looks like Phillips the Baker. Enforcing ideology on people who don't want it. The biggest difference is market share. Social media is overwhelmingly dominated by a tiny handful of companies. There is no other Reddit. Phillips is surrounded by competition. Literally thousands of competitors, both other bakeries and every home with an oven could produce a pink and blue cake(for a fraction of the cost). I've made more elaborate cakes than that, and I'm no baking genius.

I disagree with her about the word queer, but oh well. I'm more able to be inclusive than certain sleazy trans lawyers we've discussed. Nobody gonna file a lawsuit, not just because we disagree about minutiae.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

There's a pretty good overarching point here, with respect to sexual orientation versus gender identity.

For example...

https://twitter.com/PrideInLondon/status/1386646602564186114

Pride In London makes a point of including a whole lot of not-lesbians in the mix for Lesbian Visibility Week:

Happy #LesbianVisibilityWeek ! A week dedicated to celebrating and supporting all LGBTQI women and non binary people in our community.

I think they get some very valid criticism in the responses.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Strictly speaking it's terrorism. By overt displays of violence towards transgressors other guests are terrorized into obedience. It's a tried and tested method of social control in these kinds of establishments as old as the job itself. I think anybody who has ever been to one of these places is quickly made aware of how it works.

That's nothing like terrorism. That's just vigilant bouncers doing their job. All rowdy bars have those around here.

Remember that woman who got dragged out by the hair? Bouncers enforce whatever rules the establishment has by almost any means necessary.

Tom

It's not terrorism but neither is it legal.

The police rarely get involved, though.