Gaza derail from ICE detention centre thread

[Arctish]

Even so, she's clearly criticizing Israel, not expressing anti-Semitism.

She is opposing Israel for defending itself, something any country has a right to do.
She is only opposing Israel's right to defend itself, which makes it antisemitic.
Antisemites these days like to hide behind claims that they are only "ant-zionist". Do not be deceived by that.

So you are conflating Israel with all Jews everywhere and attempting to deflect criticism of Israel by claiming only anti-Semitic Jew-haters would be opposed to how it implements the Zionist policies of the Netanyahu-led government.

That's what I thought.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Even so, she's clearly criticizing Israel, not expressing anti-Semitism.

She is opposing Israel for defending itself, something any country has a right to do.
She is only opposing Israel's right to defend itself, which makes it antisemitic.
Antisemites these days like to hide behind claims that they are only "ant-zionist". Do not be deceived by that.

So you are conflating Israel with all Jews everywhere and attempting to deflect criticism of Israel by claiming only anti-Semitic Jew-haters would be opposed to how it implements the Zionist policies of the Netanyahu-led government.

That's what I thought.

So you're saying Jews should not be permitted to defend themselves?

 

[Arctish]

So you are conflating Israel with all Jews everywhere and attempting to deflect criticism of Israel by claiming only anti-Semitic Jew-haters would be opposed to how it implements the Zionist policies of the Netanyahu-led government.

That's what I thought.

So you're saying Jews should not be permitted to defend themselves?

We haven't established that Omar was criticizing Israel for defending itself. I suspect she was criticizing Israel for killing unarmed civilians but we'll have to wait for Derec to provide the context.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So you are conflating Israel with all Jews everywhere and attempting to deflect criticism of Israel by claiming only anti-Semitic Jew-haters would be opposed to how it implements the Zionist policies of the Netanyahu-led government.

That's what I thought.

So you're saying Jews should not be permitted to defend themselves?

We haven't established that Omar was criticizing Israel for defending itself. I suspect she was criticizing Israel for killing unarmed civilians but we'll have to wait for Derec to provide the context.

Civilians die in war. Especially when the Palestinians bend over backwards to get as many killed as possible.

 

[laughing dog]

We haven't established that Omar was criticizing Israel for defending itself. I suspect she was criticizing Israel for killing unarmed civilians but we'll have to wait for Derec to provide the context.

Civilians die in war. Especially when the Palestinians bend over backwards to get as many killed as possible.

If civilians die in war, then there is no reason for the IDF to go after anyone when a terrorist kills Israeli civilians. Moreover, the fact the civilians do die in wars does not justify anyone killing them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We haven't established that Omar was criticizing Israel for defending itself. I suspect she was criticizing Israel for killing unarmed civilians but we'll have to wait for Derec to provide the context.

Civilians die in war. Especially when the Palestinians bend over backwards to get as many killed as possible.

If civilians die in war, then there is no reason for the IDF to go after anyone when a terrorist kills Israeli civilians. Moreover, the fact the civilians do die in wars does not justify anyone killing them.

1) Most of the time the Palestinians are targeting civilians, not merely killing them by accident.

2) It's a de-facto war. Going after enemy combatant is legitimate.

 

[laughing dog]

If civilians die in war, then there is no reason for the IDF to go after anyone when a terrorist kills Israeli civilians. Moreover, the fact the civilians do die in wars does not justify anyone killing them.

1) Most of the time the Palestinians are targeting civilians, not merely killing them by accident.

The IDF is not killing civilians by accident. They know civilians are in the area and it does not deter them.

2) It's a de-facto war. Going after enemy combatant is legitimate.

Civilians are not enemy combatants by definition.

None of the response justifies the killing of civilians. You confuse an explanation with a justification.

 

[Derec]

So you are conflating Israel with all Jews everywhere

Wrong. Have you even read what I wrote?

and attempting to deflect criticism of Israel by claiming only anti-Semitic Jew-haters would be opposed to how it implements the Zionist policies of the Netanyahu-led government.

Wrong. I specifically said that one can be critical of Israel without being antisemitic. But to declare Israel's doings "evil" just for defending itself, a right she does not begrudge any other country, is anti-Semitic.

By the way, I am critical of Netanyahu too. He has been too restrained lately in light of almost daily aggression from Gaza via arson balloons.

That's what I thought.

As usual, you thought wrong.

 

[laughing dog]

Wrong. I specifically said that one can be critical of Israel without being antisemitic. But to declare Israel's doings "evil" just for defending itself, a right she does not begrudge any other country, is anti-Semitic.

First, killing civilians is not self-defense. Second, you have no evidence about what AOC begrudges or does not begrudge any other country when it comes to self-defense or killing civilians. While it may be that AOC is anti-semitic, you have presented zero evidence to support your claim. You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to expect others to accept "truthiness" as fact.

 

[Derec]

We haven't established that Omar was criticizing Israel for defending itself.

That tweet was written in 2012 the context of Israel defending itself from aggression from Gaza (thousands of artillery rockets being shot at Israeli towns and cities).
It has no qualification, so natural reading of the tweet is that he objects to Israel defending itself.
Again, the tweet:

I suspect she was criticizing Israel for killing unarmed civilians but we'll have to wait for Derec to provide the context.

There is no indication that that's what she meant specifically.
And it is inevitable to have some collateral damage in any war. Especially when one side (Hamas) loves to use civilians as human shields.
Also, it would be naive to believe the numbers given by the Hamas-run Health Ministry. Hamas lies, for example recently when they keep claiming that rioters who throw explosive devices across the border fence are "unarmed peaceful protesters".

 

[Derec]

First, killing civilians is not self-defense.

Only one side was targeting civilians, and that would be Gaza. There is a big difference between targeting civilians and collateral damage that happens despite efforts by IDF to limit civilian casualties.
Note that Hamas and Islamic Jihad want more civilian casualties on their own side because they can use them for propaganda purposes with useful idiots in the West.

Second, you have no evidence about what AOC begrudges or does not begrudge any other country when it comes to self-defense or killing civilians. While it may be that AOC is anti-semitic, you have presented zero evidence to support your claim.

Your goal-post shifting is legendary on this forum. She has not tweeted about "evil doings" of any other country defending itself from foreign aggression. So she is singling out Israel. That is clear evidence of anti-Semitism.
Also, you mixed up AOC (horsewoman riding the pink stick horse) with Ilhan Omar (rider on the pale horse).

 

[Jarhyn]

We haven't established that Omar was criticizing Israel for defending itself.

That tweet was written in 2012 the context of Israel defending itself from aggression from Gaza (thousands of artillery rockets being shot at Israeli towns and cities).
It has no qualification, so natural reading of the tweet is that he objects to Israel defending itself.
Again, the tweet:

I suspect she was criticizing Israel for killing unarmed civilians but we'll have to wait for Derec to provide the context.

There is no indication that that's what she meant specifically.
And it is inevitable to have some collateral damage in any war. Especially when one side (Hamas) loves to use civilians as human shields.
Also, it would be naive to believe the numbers given by the Hamas-run Health Ministry. Hamas lies, for example recently when they keep claiming that rioters who throw explosive devices across the border fence are "unarmed peaceful protesters".

When there is no indication to specifically make a decision that someone was being shitty, the correct course is to always assume that they are not, until they prove otherwise. You taking the reverse position merely says something about YOU, not about them. Here, you embed an assumption that she is shitty, not on the basis of what she said but on how you wish to put your own words in her mouth.

Furthermore, nobody excuses the actions of Hamas. I understand, personally, why they happen: ignorant people in desperate situations take unpredictable and often violent actions because they simply don't know what else they can do about any of it. That doesn't make it right, but it means the correct response is NOT to answer a crime of ignorance with a crime of gnostic cruelty; that will only stoke the fires of conflict harder, to push people further into a demand of blood for blood.

 

[Derec]

When there is no indication to specifically make a decision that someone was being shitty, the correct course is to always assume that they are not, until they prove otherwise.

I said that there is no indication that she meant civilian casualties specifically. And even if she was, she'd be wilfully ignoring the fact that IDF is trying to avoid civilian casualties while Hamas and PIJ are trying to maximize them, on both sides (on their own for propaganda purposes).

You taking the reverse position merely says something about YOU, not about them. Here, you embed an assumption that she is shitty, not on the basis of what she said but on how you wish to put your own words in her mouth.

Ilhan Omar's position is shitty alright - like the shit from the backside of that pale horse she is riding. There is no excusing it. She is talking about Israel "hypnotizing the world" and about "evil doings of Israel" when Israel was and is merely defending itself from foreign aggression (from Gaza). On the other hand, she did not say anything condemning the theocratic, Islamist group shooting over a 1000 rockets at Israel within a week.

Furthermore, nobody excuses the actions of Hamas.

BS. Ilhan Omar certainly did not waste any tweets condemning Hamas. That is tacit approval when she is calling Israel's defense against Hamas "evil doings".
Her silence speaks volumes.

Of course, that is not as bad as leader of UK's Labour Party calling Hamas "friends" and claiming they are "bringing long term peace and social justice and political justice". It is pretty bad by US standards though.

I understand, personally, why they happen: ignorant people in desperate situations take unpredictable and often violent actions because they simply don't know what else they can do about any of it.

Palestinians had myriads of opportunities to do something different. But, as Abba Eban said, Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

That doesn't make it right, but it means the correct response is NOT to answer a crime of ignorance with a crime of gnostic cruelty; that will only stoke the fires of conflict harder, to push people further into a demand of blood for blood.

Gnostic cruelty? Heh?

 

[laughing dog]

First, killing civilians is not self-defense.

Only one side was targeting civilians, and that would be Gaza. There is a big difference between targeting civilians and collateral damage that happens despite efforts by IDF to limit civilian casualties.
Note that Hamas and Islamic Jihad want more civilian casualties on their own side because they can use them for propaganda purposes with useful idiots in the West.

None of that rebuts my point that killing civilians is self-defense. Unlike you, I am not condoning anyone's killing of civilians.

Your goal-post shifting is legendary on this forum. She has not tweeted about "evil doings" of any other country defending itself from foreign aggression. So she is singling out Israel. That is clear evidence of anti-Semitism.

It is not clear what she is signaling them out for, so you really have no basis outside of bigotry for your conclusion.

 

[ZiprHead]

How the hell did this get derailed into the Palestine/Israel conflict?

 

[laughing dog]

First, killing civilians is not self-defense.

Only one side was targeting civilians, and that would be Gaza. There is a big difference between targeting civilians and collateral damage that happens despite efforts by IDF to limit civilian casualties.

Not to the dead civilians. And somehow, the IDF manages to kill many more civilians than the Hamas, etc... despite the alleged efforts to limit the casualties.

Note that Hamas and Islamic Jihad want more civilian casualties on their own side because they can use them for propaganda purposes with useful idiots in the West.

And, the IDF goes along with it. Brilliant. Nothing in your response rebuts my observation that killing civilian is not self-defense, no matter how you shift those goalposts.

Your goal-post shifting is legendary on this forum.

Asking for evidence for claims of fact is not goal-post shifting. Given your penchant for goal-post shifting (see above). I am surprised at your misuse of that term.

Please note that I am not defending the killing of civilians by anyone - unlike you.

She has not tweeted about "evil doings" of any other country defending itself from foreign aggression. So she is singling out Israel. That is clear evidence of anti-Semitism.

Since you admit it is not clear what she is singling out, you really have no rational basis for your deductions or claims. Ms. Omar may be an anti-semite, but you have produced zero evidence to support your claims.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The IDF is not killing civilians by accident. They know civilians are in the area and it does not deter them.

2) It's a de-facto war. Going after enemy combatant is legitimate.

Civilians are not enemy combatants by definition.

None of the response justifies the killing of civilians. You confuse an explanation with a justification.

The IDF is aiming at combatants. In general they avoid pulling the trigger when they know civilians are in the area. The Palestinians are deliberately avoiding the IDF and shooting at civilians.

And members of terrorist organizations are enemy combatants.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Wrong. I specifically said that one can be critical of Israel without being antisemitic. But to declare Israel's doings "evil" just for defending itself, a right she does not begrudge any other country, is anti-Semitic.

First, killing civilians is not self-defense. Second, you have no evidence about what AOC begrudges or does not begrudge any other country when it comes to self-defense or killing civilians. While it may be that AOC is anti-semitic, you have presented zero evidence to support your claim. You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to expect others to accept "truthiness" as fact.

So in WWII we should not have bombed German cities, nor invaded. Both inherently would kill civilians.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Not to the dead civilians. And somehow, the IDF manages to kill many more civilians than the Hamas, etc... despite the alleged efforts to limit the casualties.

Look at the casualty ratios.

 

[Arctish]

We haven't established that Omar was criticizing Israel for defending itself.

That tweet was written in 2012 the context of Israel defending itself from aggression from Gaza (thousands of artillery rockets being shot at Israeli towns and cities).
It has no qualification, so natural reading of the tweet is that he objects to Israel defending itself.
Again, the tweet:

I suspect she was criticizing Israel for killing unarmed civilians but we'll have to wait for Derec to provide the context.

There is no indication that that's what she meant specifically.
And it is inevitable to have some collateral damage in any war. Especially when one side (Hamas) loves to use civilians as human shields.

So she made that tweet during Operation Pillar of Defense, and a day after intense Israeli tank, artillery, and missile fire into Gaza that imperiled the lives of hundreds of thousands of civilians.

You don't think it's possible she was responding to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the lack of concern shown by the powers-that-be in Washington? You think her motive for tweeting a prayer people would awaken and see the evil doings of Israel could only be hatred of Jews? I think you're wrong.

I think that as someone with first hand experience of war, who knows what it means to be hiding in your home and praying no one decides to blow it up, she has some pretty strong opinions on this issue. She's probably the last person in Washington who would approve of a missile strike into Gaza or Tel Aviv, no matter who was the target.

She also knows just how much the destitute and refugees in camps need donated aid. I doubt she will ever look favorably on those who would withhold it for political reasons.

I wonder, do you think Palestinians have a right to defend themselves? You noted that Operation Pillar of Defense was in response to thousands of artillery rockets being shot at Israeli towns and cities, but don't note that the rocket fire was in response to Operation Returning Echo, an Israeli strike that killed a Hamas leader which broke the 2011 ceasefire. Of course there was a reason for Operation Returning Echo. It was retaliation for pre-ceasefire cross border raids which were a response to the blockade which was a response to Hamas gaining control of Gaza, etc., etc.

The point is, the fighting is mutual. As you say, it's war. If Israel has a right to drop explosives on Gaza, surely the Gazans have a right to do the same to Israel. Not that Rep. Omar would approve of civilians being targeted in either case.