Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[DrZoidberg]

Some good news in this dreary war, two hostages rescued:

Israel rescues two hostages in Rafah amid deadly strikes

The two men, Israeli-Argentines, were rescued as Israel carried out air strikes on the southern Gazan city.

www.bbc.com

I hope now everyone who has been crying about the IDF attacking Rafah understands why they're doing it and why it's necessary. We must never let Hamas get away with using the Palestinian people as human shields. It's an unacceptable behaviour.

 

[laughing dog]

Hamas doesn’t want to take part in an election that is rigged against them.

Who would rig the election against them? They are in charge of Gaza.

Hamas has de facto control over Gaza. Thanks to Iranian money. Fatah has officially the power.

Gaza has two parallel governments.

1) The Palestinian authority, run by Fatah, which is the official government. They’re the ones who collect taxes. Its little more than an embezzlement scheme for the friends of Abbas.

2) Hamas. Funded with Iranian money. They build and run hospitals and schools. Fix the power and water grid. Provide the basic necessities of life, that the Palestinian Authority are should be doing, but aren't.

As you acknowledge, there is only one functioning entity in Gaza. The PA is not in Gaza. There have been no leadership elections in the West Bank since 2006, which strongly suggests the PA cannot rig an election.

It makes no sense for Iran to rig an election against their own proxy. So, I repeat, who would rig such an election?

All of these suggests that contrary to your claim. Hamas does mot think it would win a free election and would be embarrassed by the turnout for a rigged one.

 

[laughing dog]

Some good news in this dreary war, two hostages rescued:

Israel rescues two hostages in Rafah amid deadly strikes

The two men, Israeli-Argentines, were rescued as Israel carried out air strikes on the southern Gazan city.

www.bbc.com

I hope now everyone who has been crying about the IDF attacking Rafah understands why they're doing it and why it's necessary. We must never let Hamas get away with using the Palestinian people as human shields. It's an unacceptable behaviour.

The IDF isn’t. Between rescuing and killing noncombatants, there are fewer if them to use as human shields. Theough in didrase and malnutrition, even fewer.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hamas doesn’t want to take part in an election that is rigged against them.

Who would rig the election against them? They are in charge of Gaza.

Hamas has de facto control over Gaza. Thanks to Iranian money. Fatah has officially the power.

Gaza has two parallel governments.

1) The Palestinian authority, run by Fatah, which is the official government. They’re the ones who collect taxes. Its little more than an embezzlement scheme for the friends of Abbas.

2) Hamas. Funded with Iranian money. They build and run hospitals and schools. Fix the power and water grid. Provide the basic necessities of life, that the Palestinian Authority are should be doing, but aren't.

As you acknowledge, there is only one functioning entity in Gaza. The PA is not in Gaza. It makes no sense for Iran to rig an election against there own procy. So, I repeat, who would rig such an election?

You're not making any sense. Do you think Hamas has earned the right to represent the Palestinians? On what basis are they ruling Gaza? They've just grabbed power, and exploited the fact that the PA can't stop them, and that Hamas has bought so much love from the Palestinians that they couldn't challenge Hamas even if they had the firepower.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Some good news in this dreary war, two hostages rescued:

Israel rescues two hostages in Rafah amid deadly strikes

The two men, Israeli-Argentines, were rescued as Israel carried out air strikes on the southern Gazan city.

www.bbc.com

I hope now everyone who has been crying about the IDF attacking Rafah understands why they're doing it and why it's necessary. We must never let Hamas get away with using the Palestinian people as human shields. It's an unacceptable behaviour.

The IDF isn’t. Between rescuing and killing noncombatants, there are fewer if them to use as human shields. Theough in didrase and malnutrition, even fewer.

The IDF will attack anywhere where hostages are suspected to be held. It would be wrong of Israel not to do everything in their power to free the civilians. It's the primary job of the Israeli government to protect it's own citizens. If Hamas gave a shit about the Palestinian people, they'd move the hostages away from civilians, and inform the IDF where they are. If they do anything else it's on Hamas that Palestinian civilians are dying now. What makes this so barbaric, is that Rafah is filled to the brim with refugees from the rest of Gaza. They're already weakened and starving. If Hamas gave a shit about the Palestinian people they'd of course do what they can not to give Israel a reason to attack Rafah.

Or even better, just return them. They had no right to take them to begin with. But Hamas has never had a working moral compass.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think what is being missed now is that much of the demolition of buildings now is not from the air, but by demolition teams.

This is going to be much less deadly, but still it is making Gaza unlivable.

It's unfortunate that Islamic terrorists set into motion a process that is making Gaza unlivable.

But what do you do when nobody wants to call Islamic terrorists to account before they cause so much death and destruction?

Hamas has been dominating Gaza for 18 years and now the chickens are coming home to roost. Oops for Gazans, Gaza isn't going to be livable for awhile.

The Israelis endured a massive attack that was an atrocity on October 7, 2023. The resulting action is seeing the permanent displacement of millions of Gazans away from their home.

Gaza isn't being razed to punish Hamas or Gaza, it is being razed to permanently displace Gazans and open up the settlement of Israelis.

 

[laughing dog]

Hamas doesn’t want to take part in an election that is rigged against them.

Who would rig the election against them? They are in charge of Gaza.

Hamas has de facto control over Gaza. Thanks to Iranian money. Fatah has officially the power.

Gaza has two parallel governments.

1) The Palestinian authority, run by Fatah, which is the official government. They’re the ones who collect taxes. Its little more than an embezzlement scheme for the friends of Abbas.

2) Hamas. Funded with Iranian money. They build and run hospitals and schools. Fix the power and water grid. Provide the basic necessities of life, that the Palestinian Authority are should be doing, but aren't.

As you acknowledge, there is only one functioning entity in Gaza. The PA is not in Gaza. It makes no sense for Iran to rig an election against there own procy. So, I repeat, who would rig such an election?

You're not making any sense. Do you think Hamas has earned the right to represent the Palestinians? On what basis are they ruling Gaza? They've just grabbed power, and exploited the fact that the PA can't stop them, and that Hamas has bought so much love from the Palestinians that they couldn't challenge Hamas even if they had the firepower.

In post 2006. you wrote "The reason Gaza is not democratic now is because everyone understands that if Palestinians vote its for Hamas or Islamic Jihad." I pointed out that does not appear to be true, since Hamas has not had elections. The bold-faced above is your reply.


I have continually asked who would rig the election against them. Whether or not Hamas or the Fatah is earned the right to represent anyone is irrelevant to the question. of who would rig such an election in Gaza. To date, you have evaded actually answering the question with non-sequiturs. It seems to me that your responses are simply emotionally driven examples of "truthiness" - things you wish to be true even though there is no shred of evidence to support them.

 

[laughing dog]

Some good news in this dreary war, two hostages rescued:

Israel rescues two hostages in Rafah amid deadly strikes

The two men, Israeli-Argentines, were rescued as Israel carried out air strikes on the southern Gazan city.

www.bbc.com

I hope now everyone who has been crying about the IDF attacking Rafah understands why they're doing it and why it's necessary. We must never let Hamas get away with using the Palestinian people as human shields. It's an unacceptable behaviour.

The IDF isn’t. Between rescuing and killing noncombatants, there are fewer if them to use as human shields. Theough in didrase and malnutrition, even fewer.

The IDF will attack anywhere where hostages are suspected to be held. It would be wrong of Israel not to do everything in their power to free the civilians. It's the primary job of the Israeli government to protect it's own citizens. If Hamas gave a shit about the Palestinian people, they'd move the hostages away from civilians, and inform the IDF where they are. If they do anything else it's on Hamas that Palestinian civilians are dying now. What makes this so barbaric, is that Rafah is filled to the brim with refugees from the rest of Gaza. They're already weakened and starving. If Hamas gave a shit about the Palestinian people they'd of course do what they can not to give Israel a reason to attack Rafah.

Or even better, just return them. They had no right to take them to begin with. But Hamas has never had a working moral compass.

Your applaue and approval of the displacement of millions of people, the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians from bombs and bullets, and the resulting malnutrition and disease( which hits the very young and the very old the worst) makes your comments about "giving a shit about the Palestrinian people" epically ironic.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It seems as if the word Hamas is the new Shazam!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In post 2006. you wrote "The reason Gaza is not democratic now is because everyone understands that if Palestinians vote its for Hamas or Islamic Jihad." I pointed out that does not appear to be true, since Hamas has not had elections. The bold-faced above is your reply.

The truth is Dr. Z has repeatedly spoken out of both sides of his mouth, saying that the Palestinians are besieged by Hamas and then saying the Palestinians enable Hamas.

 

[Shadowy Man]

So, if I’m understanding correctly what Dr Z is saying the logic is as follows:

Gazans don’t need elections because everyone understands that if Palestinians vote it will be for Hamas (I.e., forgone conclusion). And Hamas also doesn’t want elections because those elections would be rigged against them.

These appear to be directly conflicting statements, so presumably Dr Z can clarify this for us.

 

[DrZoidberg]

In post 2006. you wrote "The reason Gaza is not democratic now is because everyone understands that if Palestinians vote its for Hamas or Islamic Jihad." I pointed out that does not appear to be true, since Hamas has not had elections. The bold-faced above is your reply.

The truth is Dr. Z has repeatedly spoken out of both sides of his mouth, saying that the Palestinians are besieged by Hamas and then saying the Palestinians enable Hamas.

I think you need to work hard to misunderstand to read any contradiction into my posts

 

[Bomb#20]

According to their Charter (linked earlier in this thread) their goal is the end of the Zionist state and the creation of a single Palestinian State. The Charter says their fight is not with the Jews, it is with the Zionists. Jewish Palestinians would be full and equal citizens in the Palestinian State, and immigrants could apply for legal resident status.

What is the difference between a Zionist and a Jew who wishes to live in Israel? And remember it is Hamas'opinion that really counts, not yours nor mine.
Hamas would not expend so much blood nor treasure if their goal was just a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace.

You can take that with a very large grain of salt. The ideals expressed in the Charter don't necessarily conform with the opinions of Hamas' leadership, much less the rank-and-file militants.

Since Hamas's leadership would have endorsed that charter before publishing I think we can take it very seriously. No salt required.

Hamas are like Bin Laden - they are deadly seriously about what they say and many find that frightening. In the west we are so used to the feckless nature of our government's, politicians and other institutions etc. that it is unnerving to meet those who mean what they say and say what they mean.

You're contradicting yourself. Hamas claims its goal is a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace. If Hamas's goal really is a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace then your statement "Hamas would not expend so much blood nor treasure if their goal was just a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace." can't be correct. Contrariwise, if Hamas's goal is not a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace, then your statement "they are deadly seriously about what they say" can't be correct.

To all appearances, Hamas is simply lying through its teeth about what its goal is. It says its goal is a Palestinian State where Jewish Palestinians would be full and equal citizens. To all appearances, its actual goal is a Hamas-ruled Palestinian State where Jewish Palestinians are viciously discriminated against, or ethnically cleansed, or murdered.

 

[Bomb#20]

So how does killing > 1000 people and taking > 200 hostages make Israel more likely to leave Gaza to its own destiny?

I don't think it does.

I don't know what Hamas thought would happen. I doubt they thought it would lead to Israel allowing them to forge their own destiny. And I doubt they believed Israel would go on a killing spree of this magnitude.

I can only guess they wanted Israel to feel threatened as a way to compel the Israelis to modify or scrap certain policies.

Maybe so, but the only policy Israel would plausibly scrap or modify as a result of the attack was its policy of leaving Hamas in peace to run Gaza as it saw fit. So that's probably what they intended Israel to do. As for why Hamas would want Israel to go on a killing spree of any magnitude at all in Gaza, the purpose that makes sense is to torpedo Israel's incipient peace treaty with Saudi Arabia.

Perhaps they wanted to pressure Israel into restarting the peace process.

Unlikely. Attempts by Israel to pursue peace help the Palestinian Authority, not Hamas.

To my mind the obvious motivation for the attack was to preserve Hamas's relevance and make the world continue to pay attention to them. A terrorist organization that fails to deliver enough dead Jews is a terrorist organization Iran et al. have little reason to continue funding.

 

[Bomb#20]

... If Israel were to simply carpet bomb or nuke Gaza, ensuring that 100% of Hamas and Gazans were killed, would that be a justified response and we could simply blame Hamas for the carnage?

I’m not saying Israel shouldn’t respond but clearly there’s a line and we are negotiating that line.

That would be unreasonable. Israel can do better than carpet bombing, therefore they should. However, I do not see anybody proposing a viable path to Israeli safety that would cause less collateral damage.

Okay, here's a viable path to Israeli safety that would cause less collateral damage.

Phase 1: Negotiate a cease-fire with Hamas. Immediate withdrawal of IDF from Gaza in exchange for immediate release of all hostages. Israel would probably have to sweeten the deal by also releasing a few hundred Palestinian criminals from Israeli jails. Fine, as long as the released criminals are released into Gaza rather than Israel.

Phase 2: After a few months' cooling off period, sudden incursion of IDF into Gaza, seizing 1200 hectares some place along its border with Israel.

Phase 3: Knesset passes a law permanently annexing those 1200 hectares into Israel, and authorizing the seizure and permanent annexation of a further hectare for every Israeli noncombatant murdered by Palestinian terrorists going forward.

Sure it's a violation of international law; but international law hasn't delivered either Israeli safety or minimization of collateral damage, so maybe some revisions of international law should be considered.

 

[laughing dog]

In post 2006. you wrote "The reason Gaza is not democratic now is because everyone understands that if Palestinians vote its for Hamas or Islamic Jihad." I pointed out that does not appear to be true, since Hamas has not had elections. The bold-faced above is your reply.

The truth is Dr. Z has repeatedly spoken out of both sides of his mouth, saying that the Palestinians are besieged by Hamas and then saying the Palestinians enable Hamas.

I think you need to work hard to misunderstand to read any contradiction into my posts

I don't know about that. You seem to misunderstand what you post with ease.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In post 2006. you wrote "The reason Gaza is not democratic now is because everyone understands that if Palestinians vote its for Hamas or Islamic Jihad." I pointed out that does not appear to be true, since Hamas has not had elections. The bold-faced above is your reply.

The truth is Dr. Z has repeatedly spoken out of both sides of his mouth, saying that the Palestinians are besieged by Hamas and then saying the Palestinians enable Hamas.

I think you need to work hard to misunderstand to read any contradiction into my posts

It is one thing to be besieged, it is another to enable. It isn't my problem you can't see the inherit contradiction there, when you justify the mass displacement of over a million people and killing of thousands.

Israel is seizing Gaza. There is no place for the Palestinians there now.

 

[TomC]

I think you need to work hard to misunderstand to read any contradiction into my posts

I think the problem is that you post complex and nuanced opinions. They don't fit the simplistic narrative of "Palestinians are victims of Zionist oppression", therefore you mostly get strawman arguments in response.
Tom

 

[DrZoidberg]

According to their Charter (linked earlier in this thread) their goal is the end of the Zionist state and the creation of a single Palestinian State. The Charter says their fight is not with the Jews, it is with the Zionists. Jewish Palestinians would be full and equal citizens in the Palestinian State, and immigrants could apply for legal resident status.

What is the difference between a Zionist and a Jew who wishes to live in Israel? And remember it is Hamas'opinion that really counts, not yours nor mine.
Hamas would not expend so much blood nor treasure if their goal was just a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace.

You can take that with a very large grain of salt. The ideals expressed in the Charter don't necessarily conform with the opinions of Hamas' leadership, much less the rank-and-file militants.

Since Hamas's leadership would have endorsed that charter before publishing I think we can take it very seriously. No salt required.

Hamas are like Bin Laden - they are deadly seriously about what they say and many find that frightening. In the west we are so used to the feckless nature of our government's, politicians and other institutions etc. that it is unnerving to meet those who mean what they say and say what they mean.

You're contradicting yourself. Hamas claims its goal is a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace. If Hamas's goal really is a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace then your statement "Hamas would not expend so much blood nor treasure if their goal was just a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace." can't be correct. Contrariwise, if Hamas's goal is not a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace, then your statement "they are deadly seriously about what they say" can't be correct.

To all appearances, Hamas is simply lying through its teeth about what its goal is. It says its goal is a Palestinian State where Jewish Palestinians would be full and equal citizens. To all appearances, its actual goal is a Hamas-ruled Palestinian State where Jewish Palestinians are viciously discriminated against, or ethnically cleansed, or murdered.

Hamas goal is destabilize Israel. Their goal is to make hell for the Jews so they emigrate.

They'd have to be retarded if they think they'd ever win.

I think the goal of the leadership of Hamas is to live comfortable lives with the money that they get.

The Palestinians don’t seem to be blessed with leaders who care about them

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

According to their Charter (linked earlier in this thread) their goal is the end of the Zionist state and the creation of a single Palestinian State. The Charter says their fight is not with the Jews, it is with the Zionists. Jewish Palestinians would be full and equal citizens in the Palestinian State, and immigrants could apply for legal resident status.

What is the difference between a Zionist and a Jew who wishes to live in Israel? And remember it is Hamas'opinion that really counts, not yours nor mine.
Hamas would not expend so much blood nor treasure if their goal was just a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace.

You can take that with a very large grain of salt. The ideals expressed in the Charter don't necessarily conform with the opinions of Hamas' leadership, much less the rank-and-file militants.

Since Hamas's leadership would have endorsed that charter before publishing I think we can take it very seriously. No salt required.

Hamas are like Bin Laden - they are deadly seriously about what they say and many find that frightening. In the west we are so used to the feckless nature of our government's, politicians and other institutions etc. that it is unnerving to meet those who mean what they say and say what they mean.

You're contradicting yourself. Hamas claims its goal is a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace. If Hamas's goal really is a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace then your statement "Hamas would not expend so much blood nor treasure if their goal was just a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace." can't be correct. Contrariwise, if Hamas's goal is not a single Palestinian state where all could live in peace, then your statement "they are deadly seriously about what they say" can't be correct.

To all appearances, Hamas is simply lying through its teeth about what its goal is. It says its goal is a Palestinian State where Jewish Palestinians would be full and equal citizens. To all appearances, its actual goal is a Hamas-ruled Palestinian State where Jewish Palestinians are viciously discriminated against, or ethnically cleansed, or murdered.

The point of Hamas is political instability. One of the reasons Netanyahu liked them. People keep thinking this is a religious. It isn't, it is political. They have no actual goals because solving any of them would be deleterious to their goal of political instability.