Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[repoman]

Everyone here should say if they are or are married/dating people who are in a demographic on either side of this conflict. Belling the cat as it were.

I am not

 

[Copernicus]

Everyone here should say if they are or are married/dating people who are in a demographic on either side of this conflict. Belling the cat as it were.

Why would it matter what demographic one falls into? We all have biases of one sort or another, but the logic of the discussion itself has nothing to do with the biases that its participants bring to it.

 

[Gospel]

Stop pretending that Hamas has any Right to demand anything.

I agree, they don't.

So the U.S. and allies in WW2 inflicted "collective punishment" onto Germany and Japan, in the '44-'45 years when they butchered millions of Germans and Japanese civilians. They could have yielded sooner and done a "cease-fire" to stop this slaughter, and maybe there could have been a reasonable end to the hostilities without slaughtering the extra 1 or 2 or 3 million innocent civilians.

Why are the innocent Palestinian civilians today -- women, children, babies -- any more valuable human lives than the Japanese and German innocent women and children and babies slaughtered in 1944-45?

The initial attacks by Germany and Japan which began the War were mostly against military targets rather than civilians like the Hamas aggression of October 7, so arguably this assault on Israel was a more egregious attack than that of Germany and Japan back in 1941, which at least was toward military targets (or mostly military).

To demand a "Cease-Fire" by Israel now is no different than condemning the U.S. and its allies for demanding unconditional surrender in WW2, before the goal was achieved of totally destroying the enemy capability to resume the war again. The right way to secure the peace is to totally obliterate the military capability of the enemy aggressor, and give them no bargaining position after the "cease-fire." You can give no reason why Hamas is entitled to any bargaining rights whatever. Rather, what Israel must demand is the total elimination of Hamas, leaving it no position of any power or recognition whatever, or any entitlement to make any demands.

Bruh, your argument doesn't account for the evolution in international law and warfare ethics since then, yeah know, the herp derp Geneva Conventions. Equating the decisions made in a TOTAL WAR SCENERIO to the Israel/Palestine conflict adds an unreasonable amount of complexities to the discussion. I'm open to exploring that topic further with you, but it's guaranteed to extend beyond what we're both ready to tackle. Also, as I'm not an expert, my opinions will spark even more debate rather than offer clarity.

Why do some interpret my opinions as unchangeable truths? Accusations of antisemitism and support for reprehensible acts is bullshit. Read what I write. Disagree with it on the merits. You don't see me bloviating around about you supporting the dismemberment of women and children because you've shared an opposing opinion. If I gave that impression, my apologies.

 

[Gospel]

ou are pretending the two sides are equivalent. One is a free and democratic state. The other is a theocratic, oppressive dictatorship run by a brutal, islamofascist terrorist organization. One is holding prisoners convicted of terrorism. The other is holding innocent hostages. And certainly not least, one is dominating the battlefield, while the other is hiding in its ratholes.

I acknowledge the points you've made about Hamas. However, my concern lies with the generalization of your statements, suggesting that the entire Palestinian population is responsible for the actions you've described. I mean for the love of Talos the West Bank exists. Sure, they aren't 100% pro Israel, but they are for the most part taking the diplomatic route. Even yehaw Yahoo seems to acknowledges this in the future plans he shared.

 

[TomC]

Everyone here should say if they are or are married/dating people who are in a demographic on either side of this conflict. Belling the cat as it were.

I am not

I don't.
I have no religious, ethnic, or political dog in this fight. I call them like I see them.
Tom

 

[lpetrich]

When I first learned of an airdrop of supplies onto a hospital in Gaza, I wondered if that was a one-off thing. Fortunately it wasn't.

Army sends medical supplies to Jordanian hospital in Khan Yunis via air-drop | Jordan Times - Dec 07, 2023

The Jordan Armed Forces-Arab Army (JAF) said that the medical supplies were air-dropped to the newly-established field hospital in southern war-torn Gaza using parachutes, marking the fourth operation of its kind since the outbreak of the Israeli war on the strip.

The hospital, dubbed "Jordan Field Hospital Special /2" was established in Khan Yunis in November.

Jordan, Netherlands airdrop aid to north Gaza | Jordan Times - Feb 05, 2024

he Jordanian Armed Forces-Arab Army (JAF) and the Dutch Armed Forces carried out two air drops on Monday through a C130 aircraft for the Jordanian field hospital in war-torn Gaza.

The aid to the field hospital in northern Gaza, dubbed “Gaza 77”, included relief, humanitarian, and medical supplies and was dropped using specially equipped boxes with GPS-guided parachutes to ensure the delivery reaching specific locations within the required timelines, JAF said in a statement carried by the Jordan News Agency, Petra.

Jordan, Netherlands airdrop aid to war-torn Gaza | Jordan Times - Feb 05, 2024

The Royal Jordanian Air Force and the Dutch Air Force carried out two air-drops on Sunday for the Jordanian field hospital in the war-torn Gaza Strip.

The relief aid to the field hospital, dubbed "Gaza/77", was dropped using specially equipped boxes with GPS-guided parachutes to ensure the delivery to specific locations within the required timelines, the Jordanian Armed Forces (JAF) – Arab Army said in a statement carried by the Jordan News Agency, Petra.

 

[lpetrich]

Jordan air-drops aid into Gaza with help of French plane - 26/02/2024 - "The Jordanian army on Monday said it had carried out a series of humanitarian aid drops of food and other supplies into the besieged Gaza Strip, one of them by a French army plane."

Jordanian forces made "four air drops carrying aid for the people of Gaza", under the directive of Jordanian King Abdullah II, a statement said.

...
Jordan has conducted a total of 16 air-drop operations since the war broke out on October 7 between Israel and Hamas militants in Gaza.

Previously announced air drops, including a joint operation with the Netherlands, sent medical and other aid to the Jordanian field hospital in northern Gaza.

Monday's operation "aimed at delivering aid to the population directly and drop it along the coast of the Gaza Strip from north to south," the Jordanian army statement said.

It comprised "relief and food supplies, including ready-made meals of high nutritional value, to alleviate the suffering of the people of the Gaza Strip", the statement added.

"Four C-130 aircraft, one of them belonging to the French armed forces," carried out the deliveries, it said.

 

[lpetrich]

Aboard Jordan's aid airdrop over Gaza, a last resort for relief to Palestinians there : NPR - March 1, 20245:11 PM ET

FLYING OVER NORTHERN GAZA STRIP — Seventeen-thousand feet in the air, Jordanian air force personnel are unhooking the chains to let pallets of wrapped cardboard boxes attached to parachutes roll out the cargo door.

The aid drop on Thursday is part of a dramatic and desperate effort to get food to Gaza's starving population as Israel allows only a trickle of aid to enter through the country's sole working land border.

Airdrops — expensive, cumbersome and inefficient — are considered by the aid community the last resort of food delivery. But Jordan hopes that the tons of food it is dropping during the 5-month-old war in Gaza will save at least some lives.

US military airdrops emergency humanitarian aid into Gaza | AP News - 4:58 PM PST, March 2, 2024

U.S. military C-130 cargo planes dropped food in pallets over Gaza on Saturday in the opening stage of an emergency humanitarian assistance authorized by President Joe Biden after more than 100 Palestinians who had surged to pull goods off an aid convoy were killed during a chaotic encounter with Israeli troops.

Three planes from Air Forces Central dropped 66 bundles containing about 38,000 meals into Gaza at 8:30 a.m. EST (3:30 p.m. local). The bundles were dropped in southwest Gaza, on the beach along the territory’s Mediterranean coast. The airdrop was coordinated with the Royal Jordanian Air Force, which said it had two food airdrops Saturday in northern Gaza and has conducted several rounds in recent months.

Aid airdrop kills five people in Gaza after parachute fails | Israel War on Gaza News | Al Jazeera - "As famine stalks enclave, aid workarounds criticised as a distraction from Israel’s blocking of aid through land routes."

Five people were killed and several injured after a parachute landing a humanitarian airdrop failed to open, bringing a pallet crashing down into a crowd of people waiting for food north of Gaza City’s Shati refugee camp.

The government media office in Gaza confirmed the casualties after the incident occurred on Friday, lambasting the “useless” airdrops as “flashy propaganda rather than a humanitarian service” and calling for food to be allowed through land crossings.

and

The World Food Programme, which had paused deliveries in Gaza because of security concerns, said the military forced its first convoy to the north in two weeks to turn back on Tuesday.

In response, a number of countries – including the United States, Jordan, the United Arab Emirates and Egypt – have conducted airdrops, which have been criticised by aid agencies as a costly and ineffective way of delivering food and medical supplies.

The World Food Programme:
WFP in the Middle East & North Africa on X: "#Airdrops are only a last resort to reach Northern Gaza. ..." / X

#Airdrops are only a last resort to reach Northern Gaza. Road routes are the only way to bring in the large quantities of food desperately needed to avert #famine.

For comparison:

This week's airdrops = 6 tons of food
This week's failed 14-truck convoy = 200 tons of food

 

[lpetrich]

Biden announces US will build pier on Gaza shore for large-scale aid delivery | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian - "President lays out plans in State of the Union speech while senior US official says ‘we are not waiting on the Israelis’"

He promised “no US boots will be on the ground”, and said: “This temporary pier would enable a massive increase in the amount of humanitarian assistance getting into Gaza every day.”

But Biden warned Israel that it “must also do its part.”

“To the leadership of Israel I say this,” he said. “Humanitarian assistance cannot be a secondary consideration or a bargaining chip. Protecting and saving innocent lives has to be a priority.”

The White House made clear that the decision to open a sea route for aid into Gaza had come with frustration of what is seen in Washington as Israeli obstruction of road deliveries on a substantial scale.

“We are not waiting on the Israelis. This is a moment for American leadership,” a senior official said.

The scheme will take several weeks to put into action, however, carrying the risk of supplying too little relief, too late.

Several weeks? Is that necessary? Aid ships could drop anchor off the coast and small boats could go the rest of the way. I'm concerned that aid ships and boats and this temporary pier could get USS-Libertied by Israel.

But

“This just shows the lengths to which President Biden is being forced to go to avoid actually putting meaningful pressure on Netanyahu,” said Jeremy Konyndyk, a former senior aid official in the Biden administration, now president of the Refugees International aid advocacy organisation.

The temporary pier will be built by US military engineers operating from ships off the coast of the old Gaza City port in the Rimal district, aid sources said. US troops would not need to step ashore, but could build the floating dock from ships offshore, according to US officials.

The aid deliveries will be shipped from the port of Larnaca in Cyprus, which will become the main relief hub.

 

[lpetrich]

Will Biden's temporary port plan stop famine in Gaza? | Reuters

Most aid had been coming by road through the Rafah border crossing with Egypt and, since December, via the Kerem Shalom crossing with Israel, but the pace has been painfully slow.

The U.N. has complained of crossing closures, restrictions on movement and communication, onerous vetting procedures, unrest, damaged roads and unexploded ordnance as problems it faces importing and distributing supplies.

Seems like obstructionism to me.

The U.S. military will construct a floating pier and install it in place off Gaza. An official was quoted in U.S. media saying it would be attached to land by a temporary causeway.

Aid will be shipped to it from Cyprus where Israeli officials will inspect it, as they currently do at the land borders, to stop anything going into Gaza that they deem to have a possible military use.

Gaza aid corridor from Cyprus could start this weekend, says EU president | Reuters

How the US military is scrambling to build a floating dock for urgently needed aid to Gaza | KRQE News 13

They received their orders before the speech: Build a floating dock off the Gaza coast to provide food and other desperately needed assistance to residents of Gaza. The aid is needed because Israel has sharply restricted land routes into Gaza, slowing the flow of aid to a trickle.

It’s a complex operation, involving as many as 1,000 U.S. troops, and it won’t happen overnight. Air Force Maj. Gen. Pat Ryder, the Pentagon press secretary, told reporters it will take weeks for this to come together. Some officials say it will take about two months. And beyond the logistical challenges, the operation will depend on Israel’s cooperation, which isn’t assured.

Then how they are going to build that temporary pier.

It’s like a huge LEGO system — an array of 40-foot-long (12-meter-long) pieces of steel that can be locked together to form a pier and causeway. The causeway would be up to 1,800 feet (nearly 550 meters) long and two lanes wide.

...
Ryder said the troops will build an offshore pier where large ships can offload food and supplies. Then smaller military vessels will transport that aid from the floating pier to the temporary causeway that will be driven into the ground at the shoreline.

 

[bilby]

Then how they are going to build that temporary pier.

It’s like a huge LEGO system — an array of 40-foot-long (12-meter-long) pieces of steel that can be locked together to form a pier and causeway. The causeway would be up to 1,800 feet (nearly 550 meters) long and two lanes wide.

...
Ryder said the troops will build an offshore pier where large ships can offload food and supplies. Then smaller military vessels will transport that aid from the floating pier to the temporary causeway that will be driven into the ground at the shoreline.

Sounds nothing like LEGO.

Sounds to me like a huge Meccano system.

 

[Bomb#20]

he purpose of international borders is to make it possible to end wars without waiting until one side or the other is completely crushed. Everybody who calls for a "single state solution" to the Palestine situation can be reasonably presumed to be okay with ethnic cleansing until proven otherwise. You appear to be generally siding with the Palestinians; therefore the presumption was the people you're okay with ethnic cleansing are the Jews. That is why you got accused of harboring anti-Semitic sentiments; it wasn't your critique of the Israeli government. I critique the Israeli government here on a regular basis and nobody accuses me of harboring anti-Semitic sentiments.

So the question is, have you proven otherwise? Let's see what you've said about keeping Jews safe from ethnic cleansing in a hypothetical future single state solution...

The one-state solution is a proposal, not a call for ethnic cleansing.

Nobody suggested you were calling for ethnic cleansing. The issue is that you have given the appearance of being okay with it if it comes to that. If you are in fact not okay with it, let's see what we can do to correct the appearance. Help me to help you.

I'm talking about a shared state with equal rights, a far cry from ethnic cleansing.

Yes, and therefore I asked the obvious follow-up question, and you didn't answer. Did you not understand what I asked or are you refusing to answer? Who do you conceive will enforce equal rights? In a shared state, making sure equal rights are a lived reality and not just empty words on a piece of paper will take boots on the ground. So I ask again, who do you have in mind? What is the nationality of all those boots on the ground?

Both Palestinians and Israel is fully capable to achieving this with current international aide & US support to keep outside forces at bay. Sure it won't bring absolute peace (nothing will) however it would remove the obvious Bloods VS Crips situation being perpetrated now.

Current international aide & US support are doing a pretty cruddy job of keeping the Iranian terror-funders at bay, but never mind that. If you want outside forces kept at bay that pretty much lets out UN peacekeepers. Are you recommending that the boots on the ground be Palestinians and Israelis? That sounds like it would turn the obvious Bloods VS Crips situation up to eleven.

Are you suggesting the boots on the ground be American?!?

Collective punishment is unjust, regardless of whether it's carried out by Hamas or Israel. It's a principle that has no exceptions. Deal with it.

What's your point? What's going on in Gaza isn't collective punishment; it's suppression of enemy military capability.

Your skills at misdirection is remarkable. My initial comment specifically addressed the narrative that "voting for Hamas equates to supporting terrorism,". If that narrative doesn't represent your viewpoint, my comment doesn't concern you.

What narrative? "Voting for Hamas equates to supporting terrorism" isn't a narrative; it's just an obvious fact. The people who voted for Hamas knew they were voting for the murder-the-Jews party. What of it? Most of the people in Gaza never voted for Hamas, and collective punishment wouldn't be just even if they had, and nobody is advocating or defending collective punishment, and injustice per se isn't an argument for changing policy anyway when no alternative policy even exists that's both just and feasible. If you think you're refuting a "Voting for Hamas equates to supporting terrorism and therefore it's just to punish Palestinians collectively and that's what Israel is doing" narrative, point out a post where you saw that narrative.

 

[Gospel]

Nobody suggested you were calling for ethnic cleansing. The issue is that you have given the appearance of being okay with it if it comes to that. If you are in fact not okay with it, let's see what we can do to correct the appearance. Help me to help you.

Yeah, sure.

Everybody who calls for a "single state solution" to the Palestine situation can be reasonably presumed to be okay with ethnic cleansing until proven otherwise.

I want to clarify unequivocally that I do not endorse Hamas. I hold the view, as I believe most do, that all people, including Jewish individuals, deserve equal respect and rights. It's important to recognize that groups like Hamas, with their extreme agendas against Jewish people, pose a significant threat. Consequently, I support actions by the State of Israel to neutralize such threats to protect its citizens. Throughout our discussion, I have consistently maintained this stance, despite misunderstandings or misrepresentations by others.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

he purpose of international borders is to make it possible to end wars without waiting until one side or the other is completely crushed. Everybody who calls for a "single state solution" to the Palestine situation can be reasonably presumed to be okay with ethnic cleansing until proven otherwise. You appear to be generally siding with the Palestinians; therefore the presumption was the people you're okay with ethnic cleansing are the Jews. That is why you got accused of harboring anti-Semitic sentiments; it wasn't your critique of the Israeli government. I critique the Israeli government here on a regular basis and nobody accuses me of harboring anti-Semitic sentiments.

So the question is, have you proven otherwise? Let's see what you've said about keeping Jews safe from ethnic cleansing in a hypothetical future single state solution...

The one-state solution is a proposal, not a call for ethnic cleansing.

Nobody suggested you were calling for ethnic cleansing. The issue is that you have given the appearance of being okay with it if it comes to that.

No, there has been no post by Gospel that has remotely indicated as such. There is one poster that has a history of making posts suggesting support of such a thing, though they could be on a lot of people's ignore list.

If you are in fact not okay with it, let's see what we can do to correct the appearance. Help me to help you.

People shouldn't be required to confirm the obvious. It is crap like this that makes these threads a waste of time.

Your skills at misdirection is remarkable. My initial comment specifically addressed the narrative that "voting for Hamas equates to supporting terrorism,". If that narrative doesn't represent your viewpoint, my comment doesn't concern you.

What narrative? "Voting for Hamas equates to supporting terrorism" isn't a narrative; it's just an obvious fact. The people who voted for Hamas knew they were voting for the murder-the-Jews party.

The vote wasn't a referendum on Israel, it was a referendum against the previous leadership which was getting Palestinians no where and rife with controversy and embezzlement. It was a vote of desperation. A vote that got no one what they wanted (excepted the far-right of Israel and the Iranian leadership).

As one might notice, most of the Gazans are trying to survive in "refugee camps". Not taking arms up against Israel. It is why it is "Hamas" at war with Israel, not "Gaza", though some have tried to stretch us to that point and hoped others wouldn't notice.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Nobody suggested you were calling for ethnic cleansing. The issue is that you have given the appearance of being okay with it if it comes to that. If you are in fact not okay with it, let's see what we can do to correct the appearance. Help me to help you.

Yeah, sure.

Everybody who calls for a "single state solution" to the Palestine situation can be reasonably presumed to be okay with ethnic cleansing until proven otherwise.

I want to clarify unequivocally that I do not endorse Hamas. I hold the view, as I believe most do, that all people, including Jewish individuals, deserve equal respect and rights. It's important to recognize that groups like Hamas, with their extreme agendas against Jewish people, pose a significant threat. Consequently, I support actions by the State of Israel to neutralize such threats to protect its citizens. Throughout our discussion, I have consistently maintained this stance, despite misunderstandings or misrepresentations by others.

Yes, you've been pretty consistent in being anti Hamas. Question: is your aversion to a two-state solution due the belief that the Palestinians can't rule themselves (obviously Hamas rules Gaza now). Due to PLO incompetence? What is driving your belief that a one-state solution is best? I understand the Israelis that want all the land. I understand Hamas wanting all the land. You're not on either side of these groups (I don't believe).

 

[Gospel]

Who do you conceive will enforce equal rights? In a shared state, making sure equal rights are a lived reality and not just empty words on a piece of paper will take boots on the ground. So I ask again, who do you have in mind? What is the nationality of all those boots on the ground?

The citizens' of said single state. Just like any other Country.

It seems there's a misconception that Muslim countries inherently oppose Jewish people, suggesting that a unified state would jeopardize Jewish existence. However, this overlooks the reality of existing peaceful relations between Israel & neighboring Muslim countries. And yes I'm aware that relations weren't always peaceful. Which nation has truly attained peace, perhaps only offering a semblance of tranquility to its citizens?

My ideas may seem unconventional or even flawed to experts, and it's fair for them to be critiqued as such. However, they are merely proposals for consideration, not advocacies for harm against any group. To construe them as such is to engage with me in a discussion in a way that lacks sincerity and integrity.

 

[Gospel]

is your aversion to a two-state solution due the belief that the Palestinians can't rule themselves (obviously Hamas rules Gaza now). Due to PLO incompetence? What is driving your belief that a one-state solution is best? I understand the Israelis that want all the land. I understand Hamas wanting all the land. You're not on either side of these groups (I don't believe).

Admittedly, my view might seem simplistic, but I hold that efforts to unite people are inherently more valuable than those aimed at dividing them. Yet, I recognize that establishing boundaries might become necessary when coexistence in harmony proves unattainable. Regarding the state of Israel, I see its establishment as an inelegant imposition by the British Empire—a move reminiscent of colonial ambition to assert influence in the Middle East. My stance on this issue is not a commentary on the Jewish people's legitimate and compelling need to seek a safe haven from persecution; rather, it critiques the manner in which geopolitical interests shaped the region's fate.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Who do you conceive will enforce equal rights? In a shared state, making sure equal rights are a lived reality and not just empty words on a piece of paper will take boots on the ground. So I ask again, who do you have in mind? What is the nationality of all those boots on the ground?

The citizens' of said single state. Just like any other Country.

It seems there's a misconception that Muslim countries inherently oppose Jewish people, suggesting that a unified state would jeopardize Jewish existence. However, this overlooks the reality of existing peaceful relations between Israel & neighboring Muslim countries. And yes I'm aware that relations weren't always peaceful. Which nation has truly attained peace, perhaps only offering a semblance of tranquility to its citizens?

Those peaceful relations exist because we pay off Jordan and Egypt. A one-state solution is the best option in a perfect world. But we aren't in a perfect world, and the Middle East is even less perfect than the remainder of it. A one-state solution suffers from the issue of protection of Israeli rights (to exist). While it is possible a majority of Gazans, et al are in support of that protection, those people wouldn't be running the Government.

 

[Gospel]

A one-state solution suffers from the issue of protection of Israeli rights (to exist). While it is possible a majority of Gazans, et al are in support of that protection, those people wouldn't be running the Government.

From the outset, the British Empire was fully aware of these issues. Their primary interest was exerting influence over the Middle East, rather than addressing the needs or aspirations of the Jewish people. It'd go as far as to suggest that their modern allies, mainly the USA, is a continuation of this. Jewish people from my view are unfortunately meat shields for geopolitical interest. While I cannot categorically state that the population is entirely composed of unwilling participants, I am inclined to believe that the majority simply desire to avoid bloodshed.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But that was then, this is now. The locals won't be in control. Iran doesn't want a two state solution. They don't want a one state solution. They want trouble. And in the end, the majority opinion in Palestine won't matter, because it never has, and almost certainly never will.