Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Member of Israel's War Cabinet says he'll quit the government June 8 unless there's a new war plan

Benny Gantz, a popular centrist member of Israel’s three-member War Cabinet, threatened to resign from the government if it doesn’t adopt a new plan for the war in Gaza in the next three weeks.

apnews.com

There is a schism right now between the center-right and the far-right. If Netanyahu loses support of the center-right, Netanyahu might go even more extreme than now.

It would seem that Benny Gantz should read this thread. Because then he would understand that the current plan is the best possible plan.

This.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas using population centers as a manner of protection doesn't free up any nation's obligation to not target civilian population centers without substantially important reasons., generally the ticking nuclear bomb sort of thing. The cost of civilian losses must be weighed very heavily against the strategic gain of the attack.

And they aren't targeting civilian populations. You minimize civilian casualties but when Hamas puts everything of importance next to or under civilians they're going to get hit.

Hamas has no rights, especially in light of the kidnappings. Their right to exist is gone. But that isn't a green light to shoulder shrugging substantial civilian casualties, especially when considering almost no attack in Rafah is going to "end Hamas".

And you continue to search for your keys under the streetlight.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We do not agree that Hamas has the support of a majority of Gazans, that they approve of terrorism, or that they approve of Hamas digging tunnels under their apartment blocks, schools, streets, etc.

And what's your answer to that poll showing 57% of the population says 10/7 was the right choice.

 

[laughing dog]

We do not agree that Hamas has the support of a majority of Gazans, that they approve of terrorism, or that they approve of Hamas digging tunnels under their apartment blocks, schools, streets, etc.

And what's your answer to that poll showing 57% of the population says 10/7 was the right choice.

It’s been explained numerous times. How many times must you see that a respondent in retrospect might look at 10/7 as revenge for the IDF’s response. It would mit an uncommon emotional response even if it is irrational.

It wouldn’t take too many of those to put that pointless poll number below 50%.

 

[Rhea]

Anyway, I think you may have missed the forest by focusing on the trees. Self defense is politically correct. A disproportionate response that needlessly kills tens of thousands of civilians is not.

Israel's response to the terror attack in October looks grossly disproportionate.

And you continue to think that proportionate is relevant. Proportionate in self defense means you use the least force you have available consistent with stopping the threat. There is no requirement that the amount of harm you inflict is not in excess of what they are trying to inflict on you. If a football team is trying to kill you you're legally fine in killing every member of said team even though that's 11:1.

Furthermore, no matter how lopsided an encounter so long as a deadly threat exists and they do not surrender you can continue to attack. Even if Hamas were to not fire another round the deadly threat exists to the hostages. Thus Israel is justified in shooting as Hamas so long as they have any hostages. They are already the world leaders on minimizing collateral damage, they are doing nothing wrong in that regard.

Aaand once again Loren takes “hamas” and uses it to be exactly equal to “every citizen of Gaza including infants.”

Let’s fix this abominable claim:

If a football team is trying to kill you, even though they can’t actually succeed, you're legally fine in killing every member of said team, including the cheerleaders, the water-boy, the fans and the visiting fans. even though that's 100:1.

This is why, in Loren’s mind, Law Enforcement in America is taught to kill all hostages, including children, if necessary, to kill the hostage-taker.

You just HAVE TO. Tghere’s no other way.

 

[TomC]

Aaand once again Loren takes “hamas” and uses it to be exactly equal to “every citizen of Gaza including infants.”

How do you clearly distinguish between violent Muslim terrorists and their victims?
Including infants?
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, read the report. It makes reasonable assumptions about the use of US weapons, since Israel, unlike Ukraine, has not made a point of differentiating their use from purely Israeli manufactured weapons. We know that the IDF has deliberately targeted civilians that could not even credibly be called "human shields"; for example, the humanitarian aid convoy that was systematically taken out car by car with IDF precision strikes. I guess that would not be seen as evidence of Israel deliberately targeting civilians, or maybe you just forgot about it. We don't know whether American weapons were used.

And what incident are you referring to?

I recall some claims of strikes on aid, some of which is clearly faked. I do not recall any convoy being hit car by car.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Reports mount of mass graves at Gaza hospitals, some bodies found ‘without heads’ | The Hill

Wolf!

After the first mass grave "discovered" was shown to have been dug by the Palestinians I haven't dug into whether the rest are equally deceptive but I see no reason to think otherwise.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

UN seemingly halves estimate of Gazan women, children killed​

Again, 14500 is out of 34735 and 7797 is out of 24686. We do not then mathematically say that 14500 should be compared to 7797. Mathematically, we might predict that the full 34735 ought to have nearly the same ratio. So we might compare 14500/34735 to 7797/24686. The former is 41.7% and the latter is 31.6%.

This isn't half (50%), but more like 76%.

It is difficult to say why the numbers are different without examining the specific estimate reports and the context found in the reports. I'd assume that in the first instance, the estimates came from a source that used population demographic estimates in combination of a reported 90% random civilian casualty count to get numbers. While the second report had better information involving specific identifications and so quickly tried to revise numbers.

Actually, it's easy to see what happened here, there's a lot of bad reporting.

The UN had been reporting the number of dead that Hamas claimed. They switched to reporting what the Ministry of Health listed, instead. As you say, this is not half. It is, however, approximately how many combatants Israel claims to have killed. If we figure the Hamas data is total dead an the ministry data is mostly civilian dead everything's consistent. By Occam's razor this would be the most sensible interpretation.

(And note that the civilian dead include those killed by Hamas.)

 

[Copernicus]

Well, read the report. It makes reasonable assumptions about the use of US weapons, since Israel, unlike Ukraine, has not made a point of differentiating their use from purely Israeli manufactured weapons. We know that the IDF has deliberately targeted civilians that could not even credibly be called "human shields"; for example, the humanitarian aid convoy that was systematically taken out car by car with IDF precision strikes. I guess that would not be seen as evidence of Israel deliberately targeting civilians, or maybe you just forgot about it. We don't know whether American weapons were used.

And what incident are you referring to?

I recall some claims of strikes on aid, some of which is clearly faked. I do not recall any convoy being hit car by car.

It was reported in a major news event last month that seriously damaged the already tense relationship between the US and Israeli governments. It was not "clearly faked". I can't believe that you had trouble recalling it. Netanyahu said he was sorry about it.

Chef Jose Andres says Israel targeted his aid workers 'systematically, car by car'​

 

[Arctish]

We do not agree that Hamas has the support of a majority of Gazans, that they approve of terrorism, or that they approve of Hamas digging tunnels under their apartment blocks, schools, streets, etc.

And what's your answer to that poll showing 57% of the population says 10/7 was the right choice.

My answer is for you to read the entire article before asking any more questions. It is impossible to have this discussion with you when you are bullshitting about what the respondents said about war crimes.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel's war zone policy is kill anything that moves in the zone.

And the evidence we have that they are civilians is?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't know what you mean by "Those," but let's hear it. I bet it's pretty much still squibs, if not in form, then in function.

The missiles that hit those four men.
The question is, how does the twit cited by Zipr know that they were "civilians"?

We observe unarmed persons. Don't we naturally assert innocence as a default unless proven otherwise? Isn't that what you always say but then go back on? Why are you putting a burden there to PROVE THEY ARE INNOCENT!!?

They were being hunted. Don't you naturally assume there's a reason for that? Consider the Hamas tactics are to use pre-placed weapons, shoot, and then go back to pretending to be civilians it strongly suggests that this is just more of the same.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I don't know what you mean by "Those," but let's hear it. I bet it's pretty much still squibs, if not in form, then in function.

The missiles that hit those four men.
The question is, how does the twit cited by Zipr know that they were "civilians"?

We observe unarmed persons. Don't we naturally assert innocence as a default unless proven otherwise? Isn't that what you always say but then go back on? Why are you putting a burden there to PROVE THEY ARE INNOCENT!!?

They were being hunted.

That is a faith-based implication and circular reasonong. Perhaps they are being watched, not hunted. If, however, they were hunted, you assume legitimately. This faith-based assumption, then, allows you to later conclude it was a legitimate killing.

Don't you naturally assume there's a reason for that? Consider the Hamas tactics are to use pre-placed weapons, shoot, and then go back to pretending to be civilians it strongly suggests that this is just more of the same.

No, it doesn't. Hamas is a small fraction of the population and ALL of Gaza is currently a war zone. You can't claim a very small probability is probable.

 

[laughing dog]

I don't know what you mean by "Those," but let's hear it. I bet it's pretty much still squibs, if not in form, then in function.

The missiles that hit those four men.
The question is, how does the twit cited by Zipr know that they were "civilians"?

We observe unarmed persons. Don't we naturally assert innocence as a default unless proven otherwise? Isn't that what you always say but then go back on? Why are you putting a burden there to PROVE THEY ARE INNOCENT!!?

They were being hunted. Don't you naturally assume there's a reason for that? Consider the Hamas tactics are to use pre-placed weapons, shoot, and then go back to pretending to be civilians it strongly suggests that this is just more of the same.

Once again, your evidence is essentially “the IDF is never wrong”.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

https://www.npr.org/2024/05/18/1252324720/american-doctor-gaza-israel-hospital-interview

A U.S. doctor in Gaza wants President Biden to know 'we are not safe'

Dr. Adam Hamawy, a U.S. doctor and former U.S. Army combat surgeon who is currently in Gaza, says he has "never in my career witnessed the level of atrocities and targeting of my medical colleagues as I have in Gaza."

Hamawy told NPR's Danielle Kurtzleben that he and his colleagues were supposed to depart from Gaza earlier this week but were prevented from leaving. "We were told that our safe corridor had not been cleared, and that we were not supposed to leave the compound. If we did, it would be at our own risk, and we would be legitimate targets" for Israel's military.

...

Hamawy told Kurtzleben that the situation in Gaza is unlike the other conflicts he's been involved in, because he's treating primarily civilians, rather than combatants. "I'm seeing mostly children, many women, many elderly — people who have nothing to do with this war at all. And I see very, very few people of fighting age."

The doctor who saved Sen. Tammy Duckworth in Iraq is trapped in Gaza. Now she's trying to save him.

Adam Hamawy, from Princeton, N.J., is among a team of doctors from the Palestinian American Medical Association that was blocked from leaving Gaza on Monday.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[ZiprHead]

Israelis regularly attack west bank residents, murder residents, destroy their farms and steal their land. Do you think if Hamas stopped the attacks by the Israelis would stop?

An awful lot of the settler violence does not add up.

Of course not to you. To you, Israelis can do no wrong.

One day, a Palestinian family is living on the property that's been in their family for generations. The next day Israelis are living there and the Palestinians are out on the streets. No problem.

 

[ZiprHead]

We do not agree that Hamas has the support of a majority of Gazans, that they approve of terrorism, or that they approve of Hamas digging tunnels under their apartment blocks, schools, streets, etc.

And what's your answer to that poll showing 57% of the population says 10/7 was the right choice.

It's been addressed numerous times in this thread.

How in the world can an accurate poll be conducted in Gaza when the vast majority are displaced and living in refugee camps? Also, expressing disfavor of Hamas can sometimes be a death sentence for Gazan civilians. The poll is meaningless.

 

[ZiprHead]

Israel's war zone policy is kill anything that moves in the zone.

And the evidence we have that they are civilians is?

And the evidence we have is... They are not carrying weapons.

What evidence do you have they were Hamas fighters and they deserved killing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't know what you mean by "Those," but let's hear it. I bet it's pretty much still squibs, if not in form, then in function.

The missiles that hit those four men.
The question is, how does the twit cited by Zipr know that they were "civilians"?

Don't you think if they were Hamas they would be carrying weapons?

No, because ditch the weapon and pretend to be a civilian is standard practice.