Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't know what you mean by "Those," but let's hear it. I bet it's pretty much still squibs, if not in form, then in function.

The missiles that hit those four men.
The question is, how does the twit cited by Zipr know that they were "civilians"?

We observe unarmed persons. Don't we naturally assert innocence as a default unless proven otherwise? Isn't that what you always say but then go back on? Why are you putting a burden there to PROVE THEY ARE INNOCENT!!?

They were being hunted.

That is a faith-based implication and circular reasonong. Perhaps they are being watched, not hunted. If, however, they were hunted, you assume legitimately. This faith-based assumption, then, allows you to later conclude it was a legitimate killing.

Don't you naturally assume there's a reason for that? Consider the Hamas tactics are to use pre-placed weapons, shoot, and then go back to pretending to be civilians it strongly suggests that this is just more of the same.

No, it doesn't. Hamas is a small fraction of the population and ALL of Gaza is currently a war zone. You can't claim a very small probability is probable.

You don't get it--you want to believe that Israel's targeting is indiscriminate but the fact that they hit combatants a very disproportionate amount of the time says it's not.

Thus one's first assumption in a case like this is that these guys were observed shooting.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

https://www.npr.org/2024/05/18/1252324720/american-doctor-gaza-israel-hospital-interview

A U.S. doctor in Gaza wants President Biden to know 'we are not safe'

Dr. Adam Hamawy, a U.S. doctor and former U.S. Army combat surgeon who is currently in Gaza, says he has "never in my career witnessed the level of atrocities and targeting of my medical colleagues as I have in Gaza."

Hamawy told NPR's Danielle Kurtzleben that he and his colleagues were supposed to depart from Gaza earlier this week but were prevented from leaving. "We were told that our safe corridor had not been cleared, and that we were not supposed to leave the compound. If we did, it would be at our own risk, and we would be legitimate targets" for Israel's military.

...

Hamawy told Kurtzleben that the situation in Gaza is unlike the other conflicts he's been involved in, because he's treating primarily civilians, rather than combatants. "I'm seeing mostly children, many women, many elderly — people who have nothing to do with this war at all. And I see very, very few people of fighting age."

The doctor who saved Sen. Tammy Duckworth in Iraq is trapped in Gaza. Now she's trying to save him.

Adam Hamawy, from Princeton, N.J., is among a team of doctors from the Palestinian American Medical Association that was blocked from leaving Gaza on Monday.

www.nbcnews.com

And we have evidence that the problem is not Hamas rather than Israel??

And when you're in Gaza you had better say what Hamas wants you to say.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israelis regularly attack west bank residents, murder residents, destroy their farms and steal their land. Do you think if Hamas stopped the attacks by the Israelis would stop?

An awful lot of the settler violence does not add up.

Of course not to you. To you, Israelis can do no wrong.

One day, a Palestinian family is living on the property that's been in their family for generations. The next day Israelis are living there and the Palestinians are out on the streets. No problem.

And you believe everything they say. I'm saying you need to examine them with a critical eye, look for inconsistencies. Because they often are there.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We do not agree that Hamas has the support of a majority of Gazans, that they approve of terrorism, or that they approve of Hamas digging tunnels under their apartment blocks, schools, streets, etc.

And what's your answer to that poll showing 57% of the population says 10/7 was the right choice.

It's been addressed numerous times in this thread.

How in the world can an accurate poll be conducted in Gaza when the vast majority are displaced and living in refugee camps? Also, expressing disfavor of Hamas can sometimes be a death sentence for Gazan civilians. The poll is meaningless.

It surprised me that they were able to do the polling, but the answers to some of the questions certainly don't look like Hamas is rigging them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't know what you mean by "Those," but let's hear it. I bet it's pretty much still squibs, if not in form, then in function.

The missiles that hit those four men.
The question is, how does the twit cited by Zipr know that they were "civilians"?

Don't you think if they were Hamas they would be carrying weapons?

No, because ditch the weapon and pretend to be a civilian is standard practice.

So again, it is confirmed that the Israeli policy is to shoot first and ask questions later.

Or that this is a video that conveniently starts in the middle of the action, omitting important bits.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The UN had been reporting the number of dead that Hamas claimed. They switched to reporting what the Ministry of Health listed, instead. As you say, this is not half. It is, however, approximately how many combatants Israel claims to have killed. If we figure the Hamas data is total dead an the ministry data is mostly civilian dead everything's consistent. By Occam's razor this would be the most sensible interpretation.

I don't think you are far off here except for your assumption of who is a combatant who is not. For example, Netanyahu most recently has said that there were 14,000 Hamas and other fighters killed plus "probably around" (a very very vague estimate by him) 16,000 civilians killed. This is him on the defense, after earlier he said that 1.1 to 1.5 was the ratio and even earlier after Israel had said the ratio was 1 to 2. So we can take that 16,000 figure to be very loose and an underestimate. If it were 2 to 1, the total would be 42,000 which is above 35,000. If it were 1.5 to 1, it'd be 35,000. If it were his least estimate so far of 16K, the total would be 30,000, which is HIGHER than the 25K of identified persons in the counts. Israel's ranges from least to highest are inclusive of the 35,000 figure but ARE NOT inclusive of the 25K figure. This again is because it is only identified persons, not all the bodies observed.

The point is the numbers line up if you assume ministry of health counts bodies and reports civilian dead, Hamas reports total dead and Israel has a reasonably accurate toll of dead combatants. Ignore what Netanyahu is saying about ratios, he's a politician, expect everything to be a bit slanted. And note that it's a shifting target, you need numbers from the same time.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There's a reason they don't publish the full names of the "journalists". Those dead "journalists" are at best embedded reporters and most likely Hamas.

Followup on this:

One-third of journalists killed in Gaza were affiliated with terrorist groups

The U.S. head of Reporters Without Borders acknowledged that the NGO applied different standards for Gazan and Israeli journalists killed during the war

jewishinsider.com

33 specifically identified as working for Hamas media.

If 1/3 of the killed journalists are truly affiliated with Hamas news organisations, that means 2/3 are not.

Showing 1/3 are Hamas media personnel doesn't show the other 2/3 are legitimate journalists.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Who gets to decide which answer is the better one?

Yitzhak Rabin believed a Two State solution that would ensure Israel's continuation as a Jewish State for the Jewish people was a better answer than a One State solution in which non-Jews could conceivably become a majority, or a Rogue State that would be a pariah among nations.

It never would have worked.

In your opinion.

Others believe it would have worked. They include the diplomats and government officials from Sweden, the United States, and Israel who negotiated the Accords.

The accords were an exercise in can-kicking while appearing to do something. Rather like Kyoto and Paris.

 

[Copernicus]

And what incident are you referring to?

I recall some claims of strikes on aid, some of which is clearly faked. I do not recall any convoy being hit car by car.

It was reported in a major news event last month that seriously damaged the already tense relationship between the US and Israeli governments. It was not "clearly faked". I can't believe that you had trouble recalling it. Netanyahu said he was sorry about it.

Chef Jose Andres says Israel targeted his aid workers 'systematically, car by car'​

Well, they are no longer including the image that clearly revealed their deception. Even those images, though--that hole in the roof isn't as obviously wrong as the view from the other side but it's still pretty difficult for anything not heading straight down.

This is your response? It is incoherent without some kind of context to identify the "they" you are talking about. Netanyahu admitted that Israel attacked the convoy. They targeted three cars in succession. If you have some update from a subsequent news story, please back up your response with a link.

 

[Arctish]

Who gets to decide which answer is the better one?

Yitzhak Rabin believed a Two State solution that would ensure Israel's continuation as a Jewish State for the Jewish people was a better answer than a One State solution in which non-Jews could conceivably become a majority, or a Rogue State that would be a pariah among nations.

It never would have worked.

In your opinion.

Others believe it would have worked. They include the diplomats and government officials from Sweden, the United States, and Israel who negotiated the Accords.

The accords were an exercise in can-kicking while appearing to do something. Rather like Kyoto and Paris.

You are supposed to write "In my opinion" or use the abbreviation 'IMO' when posting the thoughts in your head.

If you want people to believe what you post has a basis in fact, you have to support your claims, either through a well reasoned argument or with links to sources of pertinent information.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I don't know what you mean by "Those," but let's hear it. I bet it's pretty much still squibs, if not in form, then in function.

The missiles that hit those four men.
The question is, how does the twit cited by Zipr know that they were "civilians"?

We observe unarmed persons. Don't we naturally assert innocence as a default unless proven otherwise? Isn't that what you always say but then go back on? Why are you putting a burden there to PROVE THEY ARE INNOCENT!!?

They were being hunted.

That is a faith-based implication and circular reasonong. Perhaps they are being watched, not hunted. If, however, they were hunted, you assume legitimately. This faith-based assumption, then, allows you to later conclude it was a legitimate killing.

Don't you naturally assume there's a reason for that? Consider the Hamas tactics are to use pre-placed weapons, shoot, and then go back to pretending to be civilians it strongly suggests that this is just more of the same.

No, it doesn't. Hamas is a small fraction of the population and ALL of Gaza is currently a war zone. You can't claim a very small probability is probable.

You don't get it--

No, you don't.

you want to believe that Israel's targeting is indiscriminate

No, I do not want to believe that. I look at evidence.

but the fact that they hit combatants a very disproportionate amount of the time says it's not.

They CLAIM to do so, but even there it is a minority of the time.

Thus one's first assumption in a case like this is that these guys were observed shooting.

That is a faith-based assumption.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

https://www.npr.org/2024/05/18/1252324720/american-doctor-gaza-israel-hospital-interview

A U.S. doctor in Gaza wants President Biden to know 'we are not safe'

Dr. Adam Hamawy, a U.S. doctor and former U.S. Army combat surgeon who is currently in Gaza, says he has "never in my career witnessed the level of atrocities and targeting of my medical colleagues as I have in Gaza."

Hamawy told NPR's Danielle Kurtzleben that he and his colleagues were supposed to depart from Gaza earlier this week but were prevented from leaving. "We were told that our safe corridor had not been cleared, and that we were not supposed to leave the compound. If we did, it would be at our own risk, and we would be legitimate targets" for Israel's military.

...

Hamawy told Kurtzleben that the situation in Gaza is unlike the other conflicts he's been involved in, because he's treating primarily civilians, rather than combatants. "I'm seeing mostly children, many women, many elderly — people who have nothing to do with this war at all. And I see very, very few people of fighting age."

The doctor who saved Sen. Tammy Duckworth in Iraq is trapped in Gaza. Now she's trying to save him.

Adam Hamawy, from Princeton, N.J., is among a team of doctors from the Palestinian American Medical Association that was blocked from leaving Gaza on Monday.

www.nbcnews.com

And we have evidence that the problem is not Hamas rather than Israel??

That is ridiculous. The doctor is saying what the problem is.

And when you're in Gaza you had better say what Hamas wants you to say.

That's possible. Get him out and ask him.

 

[Elixir]

The problem is that you see it as a tit-for-tat. It's not. Israel's main objective is to recover the hostages, not to rack up some particular kill count.

There was a deal for hostages and Bibi killed it because it also meant stopping killing Gazans.
What part of “Bibi does not want peace” don’t you understand?

It's Hamas that killed it by changing the terms.

By changing terms to “stop killing Gazans willy nilly.” Yeah.

 

[Elixir]

And when you're in Gaza you had better say what Hamas wants you to say…

… so IDF can kill you and claim you were Hamas.
Meanwhile, they will tell you they are only killing Hamas.
What a deal.

 

[ZiprHead]

You don't seem to recognize it when Muslims do it any more than Barbos recognizes it when Russians do it.
Tom

Hamas has no ability to commit ethnic cleansing against the Israelis.

No they don't.
That would take a much bigger part of the Muslim community.

Then why do you continue to claim Hamas is committing ethnic cleansing?

Hamas is attempting to commit ethnic cleansing. The fact that they aren't very successful at it doesn't change that.

So they're attempting to do the impossible?

Is ethnic cleansing that doesn't remove everyone not ethnic cleansing?

Just because they can't do it all at once doesn't change the nature of the act.

They can't do it AT ALL.

 

[laughing dog]

There's a reason they don't publish the full names of the "journalists". Those dead "journalists" are at best embedded reporters and most likely Hamas.

Followup on this:

One-third of journalists killed in Gaza were affiliated with terrorist groups

The U.S. head of Reporters Without Borders acknowledged that the NGO applied different standards for Gazan and Israeli journalists killed during the war

jewishinsider.com

33 specifically identified as working for Hamas media.

If 1/3 of the killed journalists are truly affiliated with Hamas news organisations, that means 2/3 are not.

Showing 1/3 are Hamas media personnel doesn't show the other 2/3 are legitimate journalists.

It is your source, not mine. The source your quoted claims 1/3 of the journalists killed were affiliated with Hamas news organisations. Basic arithmetic with your sources datas neans 2/3 of the people your source reports journalists were not Hamas affiliated.

Ignoring the obvious dodge of the undefined notion of a “ legitimate” journalist,
One cannot logically or honestly claim 1/3 of the legitimate journalists are Hamas and simultaneously deny that some portion of the remaining 2/3 are mot “legitimate” and be expected to be taken seriously.

If you are going to call into question the accuracy or legitimacy of your own source, why take any of it seriously at all?

 

[ZiprHead]

https://www.npr.org/2024/05/18/1252324720/american-doctor-gaza-israel-hospital-interview

A U.S. doctor in Gaza wants President Biden to know 'we are not safe'

Dr. Adam Hamawy, a U.S. doctor and former U.S. Army combat surgeon who is currently in Gaza, says he has "never in my career witnessed the level of atrocities and targeting of my medical colleagues as I have in Gaza."

Hamawy told NPR's Danielle Kurtzleben that he and his colleagues were supposed to depart from Gaza earlier this week but were prevented from leaving. "We were told that our safe corridor had not been cleared, and that we were not supposed to leave the compound. If we did, it would be at our own risk, and we would be legitimate targets" for Israel's military.

...

Hamawy told Kurtzleben that the situation in Gaza is unlike the other conflicts he's been involved in, because he's treating primarily civilians, rather than combatants. "I'm seeing mostly children, many women, many elderly — people who have nothing to do with this war at all. And I see very, very few people of fighting age."

The doctor who saved Sen. Tammy Duckworth in Iraq is trapped in Gaza. Now she's trying to save him.

Adam Hamawy, from Princeton, N.J., is among a team of doctors from the Palestinian American Medical Association that was blocked from leaving Gaza on Monday.

www.nbcnews.com

And we have evidence that the problem is not Hamas rather than Israel??

And when you're in Gaza you had better say what Hamas wants you to say.

And that's why the poll you keep citing is crap.

 

[ZiprHead]

The UN had been reporting the number of dead that Hamas claimed. They switched to reporting what the Ministry of Health listed, instead. As you say, this is not half. It is, however, approximately how many combatants Israel claims to have killed. If we figure the Hamas data is total dead an the ministry data is mostly civilian dead everything's consistent. By Occam's razor this would be the most sensible interpretation.

I don't think you are far off here except for your assumption of who is a combatant who is not. For example, Netanyahu most recently has said that there were 14,000 Hamas and other fighters killed plus "probably around" (a very very vague estimate by him) 16,000 civilians killed. This is him on the defense, after earlier he said that 1.1 to 1.5 was the ratio and even earlier after Israel had said the ratio was 1 to 2. So we can take that 16,000 figure to be very loose and an underestimate. If it were 2 to 1, the total would be 42,000 which is above 35,000. If it were 1.5 to 1, it'd be 35,000. If it were his least estimate so far of 16K, the total would be 30,000, which is HIGHER than the 25K of identified persons in the counts. Israel's ranges from least to highest are inclusive of the 35,000 figure but ARE NOT inclusive of the 25K figure. This again is because it is only identified persons, not all the bodies observed.

The point is the numbers line up if you assume ministry of health counts bodies and reports civilian dead, Hamas reports total dead and Israel has a reasonably accurate toll of dead combatants. Ignore what Netanyahu is saying about ratios, he's a politician, expect everything to be a bit slanted. And note that it's a shifting target, you need numbers from the same time.

How do you know it's "reasonably accurate"? How do you know it isn't just propaganda?

 

[Swammerdami]

And what's your answer to that poll showing 57% of the population says 10/7 was the right choice.

Is that not in the same ballpark as Americans advocating violence if they don't get their way in the next election? So if Trump wins the election should the Blues launch massacres against the Reds?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Airstrike at refugee camp:

https://thehill.com/homenews/ap/ap-top-headlines/ap-an-airstrike-kills-20-in-central-gaza-and-fighting-rages-as-israels-leaders-air-wartime-divisions/

The number is rising and this is "normal" for tragic mass deaths as wounded continue to die and more bodies are found. So, the title of the news article says 20, but the text is already updated to 27....and more reports make it 31 and it may climb to more. But the current snapshot in time from this article is 27:

The airstrike in Nuseirat, a built-up Palestinian refugee camp in central Gaza dating back to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, killed 27 people, including 10 women and seven children, according to records at Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in nearby Deir al-Balah, which received the bodies.