Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

I realize this is hard, if Israel stopped the bombing and invasion, this war would be over.

I realize you prefer not to grasp the big picture, so this is hard. But Israel stopping their defense while Gazans (whether lead by Hamas or not) continue their attacks will Not end the war. It will be giving a victory to the violent Muslim extremists.
Tom

Right now, Hamas is not attacking - they are hiding, so what on earth are you on abo

They still have the hostages. That is a form of attack.

 

[TomC]

I realize this is hard, if Israel stopped the bombing and invasion, this war would be over.

I realize you prefer not to grasp the big picture, so this is hard. But Israel stopping their defense while Gazans (whether lead by Hamas or not) continue their attacks will Not end the war. It will be giving a victory to the violent Muslim extremists.
Tom

Right now, Hamas is not attacking - they are hiding, so what on earth are you on abo

They still have the hostages. That is a form of attack.

It's not just that.
If Israel gave the victory to the Islamic terrorists by ceasing to defend themselves, Israel would be continuing the war.
I hope that they don't do that.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Given the reality that there are people in Gaza that are not Hamas combatants, while Hamas continues to pursue the destruction of Israel, what sustainable path forward can ensure security for Israel and a viable future for the non-combatant population in Gaza?

If you can determine that then I will give you a knighthood and the Nobel Peace Prize.

You can't name one?

Negotiated Two-State Solution
Strengthening Moderate Leadership
International Mediation
Economic Development
Security Cooperation
Humanitarian Aid and Reconstruction
People-to-People Programs
Regional Cooperation
Addressing Core Issues
Ceasefires and Confidence-Building Measures

Edit: If they choose to treat Gazans similarly to how marginalized communities are often neglected in the USA—by ignoring the historical factors that led to their situation, demanding they figure it out on their own while simultaneously hindering their progress—they can expect Gazans to continue to struggle. Only difference is niggas don't have a nation like Iran arming Negro militants.

Edit: I'm talking about the people of Gaza, not Hamas. So please don't put on a superhero cape and go soaring through the sky shouting, 'They've tried to negotiate multiple times.' I'm focused on winning over the people and helping them secure their country from organizations like Hamas and Iran's influences.

Edit2: For the record, America has won me over. However, not everyone who shares my background feels the same way, and I understand why. I don't agree with them, but I can see where they're coming from.

More and more sophisticated ways of searching for your keys under the streetlight.

Conditions in Gaza are irrelevant, the war exists because of the money being provided for terror. Provide enough money, there will be terror.

 

[Gospel]

Given the reality that there are people in Gaza that are not Hamas combatants, while Hamas continues to pursue the destruction of Israel, what sustainable path forward can ensure security for Israel and a viable future for the non-combatant population in Gaza?

If you can determine that then I will give you a knighthood and the Nobel Peace Prize.

You can't name one?

Negotiated Two-State Solution
Strengthening Moderate Leadership
International Mediation
Economic Development
Security Cooperation
Humanitarian Aid and Reconstruction
People-to-People Programs
Regional Cooperation
Addressing Core Issues
Ceasefires and Confidence-Building Measures

Edit: If they choose to treat Gazans similarly to how marginalized communities are often neglected in the USA—by ignoring the historical factors that led to their situation, demanding they figure it out on their own while simultaneously hindering their progress—they can expect Gazans to continue to struggle. Only difference is niggas don't have a nation like Iran arming Negro militants.

Edit: I'm talking about the people of Gaza, not Hamas. So please don't put on a superhero cape and go soaring through the sky shouting, 'They've tried to negotiate multiple times.' I'm focused on winning over the people and helping them secure their country from organizations like Hamas and Iran's influences.

Edit2: For the record, America has won me over. However, not everyone who shares my background feels the same way, and I understand why. I don't agree with them, but I can see where they're coming from.

More and more sophisticated ways of searching for your keys under the streetlight.

Conditions in Gaza are irrelevant, the war exists because of the money being provided for terror. Provide enough money, there will be terror.

I don’t disagree with any of that. My question is, given that what you said reflects the reality, what are Israel’s options? Simply repeating the obvious offers nothing but the status quo to the people of Israel, whom you seem to care about deeply (as do I).

 

[Gospel]

I realize this is hard, if Israel stopped the bombing and invasion, this war would be over.

I realize you prefer not to grasp the big picture, so this is hard. But Israel stopping their defense while Gazans (whether lead by Hamas or not) continue their attacks will Not end the war. It will be giving a victory to the violent Muslim extremists.
Tom

Right now, Hamas is not attacking - they are hiding, so what on earth are you on abo

They still have the hostages. That is a form of attack.

It's not just that.
If Israel gave the victory to the Islamic terrorists by ceasing to defend themselves, Israel would be continuing the war.
I hope that they don't do that.
Tom

Exactly. But let me ask you, as I’ve asked others here: What can Israel do to end the security threat posed by Gaza? If calling me a Hamas apologist makes you feel better, fine—but as humans on a platform for exchanging ideas, what solution do you propose? I’m not expecting a perfect answer (none exist), but it seems the discussion here is stuck on affirming Israel’s right to defend itself—a point I’ve already agreed with countless times.

 

[Gospel]

Earllier Dr.Zoidberg wrote something about what a nice, well-behaved army IDF is.

Right, then.

I'd lost a bunch of respect for the UN over the last several years.

This was just another episode. They managed to bitch about the destruction of hospitals and such without mentioning human shields.

They seem to have become the international mouthpieces for tyrannical government and violent terrorism.
Tom

You do know the UN is not a tabloid right? You speak as if it's a single organization posting clickbait rather than a group of nations. The UN has mentioned Hamas using human shields.

TOM TUGENDHAT, Minister of State for Security of the United Kingdom
We know that Hamas are using innocent Palestinian civilians as human shields; they have embedded themselves in civilian communities,”

ANNALENA BAERBOCK, Federal Minister for Foreign Affairs of Germany,
In doing so, we must not be fooled by Hamas’ playbook,” she said, pointing to their use of women and children in Gaza as human shields, and their hiding of weapons under supermarkets, apartment blocks and even hospitals.

SERGIY KYSLYTSYA (Ukraine) He also condemned the taking of hostages and demanded the immediate and unconditional release of all captives. Hamas has plunged the region into hostilities and is using civilians as human shields.

Antony J. Blinken, Secretary of State of the United States
Palestinian civilians must be protected, and Hamas must cease to use them as human shields.

There’s plenty more out there for anyone genuinely interested in finding it.

Very much minority opinions. Just because there are some sane ones doesn't mean the sane ones have a meaningful voice.

Whatever, Loren. My point was simply to clarify that they did mention human shields, correcting TomC's claim that they didn’t. I’m not interested in debating your opinion on the numbers.

 

[TomC]

I responded specifically to a link from pood in which the UN griped about Israeli self defense, referring to that as crimes against humanity.
Nothing in that article mentioned things like why the IDF bombed the military installations with hospitals built atop, or why Gazans put military installations in or under civilian infrastructure like hospitals.
Tom

ETA ~I see no reason to believe that the UN cares about Gazan deaths except when they can blame those Jews. ~

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You make it sound like the PA isn't pursuing a diplomatic solution by working with other nations and the UN.

They aren't. They are trying to use diplomacy to get things without actually resolving things.

You make it sound like there never was a peace agreement the Palestinians backed, never a deal that they honored, never some kind of, oh let's call it an "Accord", that they wanted implemented which would have guaranteed the existence of both a Palestinian State and the State of Israel, each with their own focus on upholding and defending the Rights of their populations while respecting the Rights of their neighbors as well.

There never was. It was an exercise in getting front-loaded concessions. They did not agree on anything major.

Perhaps you haven't been paying attention but the Israelis have been, and are, led by extremists as well.

Even if true it's irrelevant because it the Jihadists that are choosing the path of war. Terrorists act, Israel reacts.

Anyway, extremists have been in control of the agenda since Rabin was murdered and Abbas failed to deliver a Palestinian State to the Palestinian people. That has to change for there to be peace.

Abbas had no intention of delivering a Palestinian state. That is absolutely the last thing they want. When he was faced with an offer he couldn't justify saying no to he walked instead of saying yes.

Hamas must be defeated and removed from power. The extremists in Israel, currently empowered by Netanyahu pushing their agenda, have to be defeated as well. Hopefully that can happen without bloodshed but I don't think it will. Kach might be banned as a party but it's philosophy is alive and well in the settlements. I expect things will get even uglier there if/when they feel their influence waning.

Hamas is irrelevant. They're simply the current manifestation of the Islamist vs Israel war.

 

[laughing dog]

I realize this is hard, if Israel stopped the bombing and invasion, this war would be over.

I realize you prefer not to grasp the big picture, so this is hard. But Israel stopping their defense while Gazans (whether lead by Hamas or not) continue their attacks will Not end the war. It will be giving a victory to the violent Muslim extremists.
Tom

Right now, Hamas is not attacking - they are hiding, so what on earth are you on abo

They still have the hostages. That is a form of attack.

George Orwell would be proud of your rhetoric.

Holding hostages is not a form of attack. It is a terrible crime and tragedy, but it is not an attack.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What an ignorant and clueless comment.

It's the fanatics on both sides who have kept this conflict going.

I don't have a theory, I am making an observation.

An obvious and easily made observation, that you would do well to repeat for yourself.

Observations are useful for deriving theories but they aren't enough for understanding.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas apologetics

???

Anything Israel does is wrong. Hamas is wrong but an understandable reaction to oppression.

"Apologetics" is a reasonable term.

Your conclusion is based on ridiculous straw men.

Try pointing to said strawman rather than just alleging it.

 

[TomC]

Holding hostages is not a form of attack.

George Orwell would be proud of your rhetoric.

"So what if we kidnapped your family members? So what if we continue to hold the kidnappees.
It's your fault that we are violent. It's your fault that we refuse to end the violence.
We're Muslim and You are Not!
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel, Egypt prove diplomacy isn't impossible. It can be costly though.

No. What happened with Egypt shows that the Islamists care more about the conflict than about any particular aspect of it. Peace with Egypt simply moves the conflict, it doesn't end it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

As I see it, the fundamental flaw of Palestinian thinking is the belief that they are part of a dominant majority, (Muslims) who can threaten and terrorise Israel into submission. Which is a old Ottoman fantasy. The Muslim world has always been fractured. This is coupled with the narrative of Muslims (and colonials) resisting and defeating powerful colonial overlords, which also doesn't apply to Israel. These two powerful narratives are preventing Palestinians to accept that Jews are going to be their neighbours now.

Fantasy? That was pretty much the reality before 1948.

The Ottomans were very good at acknowledging groups while giving them nothing. This kept the peace.

Muslims in Palestine were told they were the masters. There was always a Muslim governor/wally/bey. While the Palestinian government administration was almost all Christians.

Jews and Muslims of Palestine had different legal courts, and slightly different laws.

What changed after it became Israel was that the Jews were no longer officially subservient to Muslims. They never were in practice. This is only symbolic stuff.

Worth noting is that the Ottoman administration, towards the end, was so dysfunctional and corrupt it barely functioned at all. It was economicaly backward to an extreme degree. And held back by the government. Which is the main reason the Ottoman empire fell apart.

The British mandate was barely an improvement.

The Jewish Israeli government was the first competent government Palestine/Israel has ever had.

 

[laughing dog]

Hamas apologetics

???

Anything Israel does is wrong. Hamas is wrong but an understandable reaction to oppression.

"Apologetics" is a reasonable term.

Your conclusion is based on ridiculous straw men.

Try pointing to said strawman rather than just alleging it.

I thought the plural (men not man) made it obvious. I bold faced that straw men.

 

[laughing dog]

Holding hostages is not a form of attack.

George Orwell would be proud of your rhetoric.

"So what if we kidnapped your family members? So what if we continue to hold the kidnappees.
It's your fault that we are violent. It's your fault that we refuse to end the violence.
We're Muslim and You are Not!
Tom

George Orwell would not be proud of your insultingly stupid straw man argument.

Kidnapping the hostage is an attack. Holding the hostages is not.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How so? All the bombs and bullets in 13 months, Hamas is still here.

Gazans insist on keeping the war going.

That is literally counterfactual. At this time, the IDF is continuing the violence. The IDF has the ability to stop anytime. That does not stop the hostilities nor prevent future acts of war, but at this moment, either side can stop the war.

No. Suppose Israel stops shooting. Gaza would still hold the hostages, it wouldn't be over. ....

Either side can stop the ARMED CONFLICT (i.e. war). Whether that is a good idea for one party or the other is a completely different matter. Nothing you wrote contradicts that. Your response ignores basic reality. Responses that ignore reality are, by definition, unrealistic.

Holding and torturing hostages is armed conflict.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Given the reality that there are people in Gaza that are not Hamas combatants, while Hamas continues to pursue the destruction of Israel, what sustainable path forward can ensure security for Israel and a viable future for the non-combatant population in Gaza?

If you can determine that then I will give you a knighthood and the Nobel Peace Prize.

You can't name one?

Negotiated Two-State Solution
Strengthening Moderate Leadership
International Mediation
Economic Development
Security Cooperation
Humanitarian Aid and Reconstruction
People-to-People Programs
Regional Cooperation
Addressing Core Issues
Ceasefires and Confidence-Building Measures

Edit: If they choose to treat Gazans similarly to how marginalized communities are often neglected in the USA—by ignoring the historical factors that led to their situation, demanding they figure it out on their own while simultaneously hindering their progress—they can expect Gazans to continue to struggle. Only difference is niggas don't have a nation like Iran arming Negro militants.

Edit: I'm talking about the people of Gaza, not Hamas. So please don't put on a superhero cape and go soaring through the sky shouting, 'They've tried to negotiate multiple times.' I'm focused on winning over the people and helping them secure their country from organizations like Hamas and Iran's influences.

Edit2: For the record, America has won me over. However, not everyone who shares my background feels the same way, and I understand why. I don't agree with them, but I can see where they're coming from.

More and more sophisticated ways of searching for your keys under the streetlight.

Conditions in Gaza are irrelevant, the war exists because of the money being provided for terror. Provide enough money, there will be terror.

I don’t disagree with any of that. My question is, given that what you said reflects the reality, what are Israel’s options? Simply repeating the obvious offers nothing but the status quo to the people of Israel, whom you seem to care about deeply (as do I).

I think Israel has chosen about the best outcome they can get.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Exactly. But let me ask you, as I’ve asked others here: What can Israel do to end the security threat posed by Gaza? If calling me a Hamas apologist makes you feel better, fine—but as humans on a platform for exchanging ideas, what solution do you propose? I’m not expecting a perfect answer (none exist), but it seems the discussion here is stuck on affirming Israel’s right to defend itself—a point I’ve already agreed with countless times.

The problem here is that you're stuck on Israel solving the problem.

Israel can't solve the problem. We are "stuck" on Israel's right to defend itself because there are a lot of people who demand absolute perfection from Israeli defense and blame them for anything less.

 

[laughing dog]

Exactly. But let me ask you, as I’ve asked others here: What can Israel do to end the security threat posed by Gaza? If calling me a Hamas apologist makes you feel better, fine—but as humans on a platform for exchanging ideas, what solution do you propose? I’m not expecting a perfect answer (none exist), but it seems the discussion here is stuck on affirming Israel’s right to defend itself—a point I’ve already agreed with countless times.

The problem here is that you're stuck on Israel solving the problem.

Israel can't solve the problem. We are "stuck" on Israel's right to defend itself because there are a lot of people who demand absolute perfection from Israeli defense and blame them for anything less.

No single entity can solve the problem.