Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

We’re all on the same page here. The challenge with this discussion is that, to some members, anything perceived as unfavorable to Israel is labeled as antisemitic or Hamas propaganda. Even questions about Israel’s future actions are considered overly critical, despite Israel itself taking the very steps being suggested and its leadership making similar statements. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Your page is too general.

Yes, we all want Hamas gone. The problem comes down to the details. We fall into basically two camps: Those who accept that all answers are horrible and that we should be picking the least horrible and those who hold to some sort of fantasy solution that doesn't involve being horrible.

I believe the least harmful approach involves Israel defending itself by decisively neutralizing Hamas, while simultaneously working with Palestinians, other Arab nations, the UN, and Western countries to dismantle the extremist ideology & money fueling this violence. That effort is already underway, although you’ve repeatedly suggested I’m unaware of it. What alternatives is there? You seem to advocate waiting until Israel is attacked and then responding, again and again. In contrast, I'm saying that Israel not only defend itself when attacked but also intensify its efforts, alongside others, to counter the ideological narrative that groups like Hamas use to recruit new members.

I’m simply restating Israel’s long-established strategy, which refutes your hollow insistence that Israel keeps reacting to each attack on an endless loop. Hamas has a seemingly endless pool of potential recruits, and both the Israeli government and I are fully aware of that reality despite your baseless post to the contrary.

Cut off their funding, dismantle their ideology and neutralize their members, what else is there? Are you suggesting genocide? What exactly are you complaining about? Surely you realize I’m simply reiterating what Israel is already doing, so if you have an issue, it’s not with me, it’s with Israel.

As I said, fantasy solution. There's enough money for terror that somebody will take it. Israel does not have the power to alter that. Hamas is simply one front in a much bigger conflict.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

but you can make the general case that an absolute refusal to kill children results in genocide.

You’re conjuring this so-called 'absolute refusal' out of thin air. It doesn’t exist, and pretending otherwise only undermines any real dialogue. If you want a constructive conversation, drop the made-up claims and stick to the facts.

That's the implication of the position several of you hold. You consider anything that results in a child dying to be wrong. You weaseled on the Hitler question.

So my saying yes I'd kill Hitler (twice) wasn't an answer? Now you're just being absurd.

"Yes" with a weasel isn't yes.

 

[laughing dog]

They’ve extended help to Palestinians through initiatives like providing water and electricity to the Palestinian territories, advancing agricultural practices, creating joint industrial zones, and offering academic opportunities. Acknowledging these efforts doesn’t make them anti-Semites, nor does it diminish their struggles. Yet somehow, when I speak about these positive actions, things that build bridges between people, it's framed as making demands. I just can’t wrap my head around this argument.

All I did was ask what comes next after Hamas is removed and shared a few ideas. Now, suddenly, I’m accused of hating Jewish people and unknowingly falling for Hamas propaganda? This topic as gone mad.

The problem here is that you think it's over when Hamas is removed.

1) Hamas top leadership is elsewhere, Israel is only going to get the on-scene commanders.

2) The funding hasn't been touched. If not Hamas, somebody will rebuild. There's enough Islamist money out there, somebody will take it.

So what is your solution - mass destruction and slaughter across the Islamist word?

I don't believe there is a real solution at this point. The status quo of periodically bombing the terrorists is the best we can hope for. We dicked around with Iran for too long, now a military answer is off the table. We will simply have to live with state sponsored Islamist terror like we used to have to live with state sponsored Marxist terror.

And we lived with that state sponsored Marxist terrorism without periodic massive bombing.

Because some of released prisoners participated?

Many of the released prisoners participated. Some of the released prisoners planned and led the invasion/massacre. First and foremost Yahya Sinwar, who was the head of Hamas in Gaza at the time.

Thank you, the fact that some of the prisoners helped plan and lead the massacre is good evidence. Participation is not because there are always people who follow.

He spelled it out in more detail but he's not saying anything I didn't.

And I note that you're not addressing the implications.

No need to address your implications because they do not rebut my observation that a hostage swap instead of an invasion would likely reduce the overall destruction and death.

You're utterly ignoring the fact that the last hostage swap got them more dead Israelis than freed hostages.

Nonsense. Do you not understand what “overall” means?

Moveover, that avoids the discussion about holding prisoners for alleged crimes without trial for years. One might think that practice might harden the hearts and minds of those prisoners making them more violent terrorists upon release.

The money being provided for terror is both necessary and sufficient to explain what is happening.

No, it’s not.

 

[laughing dog]

I don't believe there is a real solution at this point. The status quo of periodically bombing the terrorists is the best we can hope for. We dicked around with Iran for too long, now a military answer is off the table. We will simply have to live with state sponsored Islamist terror like we used to have to live with state sponsored Marxist terror.

And we lived with that state sponsored Marxist terrorism without periodic massive bombing.

1) It was never at the scale that Islamist terror is.

Then there was no reason to bring it up.

 

[laughing dog]

I understand how odious the notion of a hostage swap is. It rewards odious behavior. But the ME is filled with such rewards - the expanasion of settlers in the West Bank is an example.

But there is ample history indicating that Israeli policy is amenable to possible hostage swaps. There was no attempt at a hostage swap on the part of Israel. One can argue the merits of Israel's decision, but I think it is clear that it meant more death and destruction overall.

We've been down this road before.

1) The price Israel would have to pay would simply be too high.

2) History has shown it's can-kicking anyway.

You never rebutted either of these, you just are bringing it up again. Why?

Because your first and second reason is your opinion on the wisdom of such a deal, not a rebuttal of a deal’s likely effects, and because I did rebut them.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

My concern is about what is left of Gaza. And the cesspool being created that is going to put Israel at greater risk. Saying Israel "isn't wrong" doesn't undo the instability in Gaza at the moment, which is going to be breeding militants. No other Arab nation is taking these Palestinians in. Israel's actions have had a reaction, that will make things worse, unless addressed in the short and long term. Your moral indifference to the Palestinians doesn't make them any less real and susceptible to what impoverished and marginalized people tend to be susceptible to (frustration, anger, radicalization).

"Breeding militants" is a distraction. The war exists because of Islamist money, not because of Israel's actions.

I'd have figured you'd be the last to call the future murder of Israelis a "distraction". You sound like W and the Neocons with 9/11 and Iraq.

There are several different ways Israel could have managed a military response to the October attack. What their response has been doesn't have to be what it was, without it being effective.

 

[TV and credit cards]

I'm not finding what I was after so I'll go from memory on it. They dropped a bomb on a commander and it detonated a bunch of explosives on the ground.

A gif in the wiki article about the strike in question (that he posted, mind you) clearly shows a secondary explosion.

Could be the bomb struck in one corner of the building destroying that section of the building and the energy from the explosion forced its way down corridor(s) of the remainder of the building and possibly through closed doors and out some window(s) milliseconds later. Couldn't it? Concrete walls and wooden doors might make this scenario possible.
I guess we all see what we want to see.

I see you grasping at virtual straws.

The secondary isn't milliseconds later. I don't have anything to do a frame-by-frame on a .GIF but it is at least one second after the original boom. And if the original bomb struck a corner we would see blast radiating out from that point. We don't--the original blast is heading up, saying that there was no way for it to head out. Typical for a below-ground detonation. In theory enough concrete could reflect a blast but if that happened we would see it happening long before we do.

This is a perfectly ordinary video of a bomb causing a secondary, the only reason to think it's not is if you're desperate to blame Israel for what happened.

I'm not grasping at anything nor am I trying to lay any blame for this particular incident. I merely provided an alternate scenario from the original gif of the explosion(s). When Derec posted up the short video, it appears it is not even a building being hit, so something below ground, I would suppose.

By the way, I've blamed Israel for the Palestinian situation for their actions since after WWII in the early pages of this thread and no one has convinced me otherwise. Back when you told me not to trust Wikipedia nor the UN (and might I assume all our western allied friends) as sources of accurate information, I chortled and moved on.
So you and a few select others here, the Israeli government, the US government are right and by and large the remainder of planet earth is wrong. Have a nice day.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm not finding what I was after so I'll go from memory on it. They dropped a bomb on a commander and it detonated a bunch of explosives on the ground.

A gif in the wiki article about the strike in question (that he posted, mind you) clearly shows a secondary explosion.

Could be the bomb struck in one corner of the building destroying that section of the building and the energy from the explosion forced its way down corridor(s) of the remainder of the building and possibly through closed doors and out some window(s) milliseconds later. Couldn't it? Concrete walls and wooden doors might make this scenario possible.
I guess we all see what we want to see.

I see you grasping at virtual straws.

The secondary isn't milliseconds later. I don't have anything to do a frame-by-frame on a .GIF but it is at least one second after the original boom. And if the original bomb struck a corner we would see blast radiating out from that point. We don't--the original blast is heading up, saying that there was no way for it to head out. Typical for a below-ground detonation. In theory enough concrete could reflect a blast but if that happened we would see it happening long before we do.

This is a perfectly ordinary video of a bomb causing a secondary, the only reason to think it's not is if you're desperate to blame Israel for what happened.

I'm not grasping at anything nor am I trying to lay any blame for this particular incident. I merely provided an alternate scenario from the original gif of the explosion(s). When Derec posted up the short video, it appears it is not even a building being hit, so something below ground, I would suppose.

By the way, I've blamed Israel for the Palestinian situation for their actions since after WWII in the early pages of this thread and no one has convinced me otherwise. Back when you told me not to trust Wikipedia nor the UN (and might I assume all our western allied friends) as sources of accurate information, I chortled and moved on.
So you and a few select others here, the Israeli government, the US government are right and by and large the remainder of planet earth is wrong. Have a nice day.

The first GIF was enough to see what was happening and rebut the notion that it was the original blast being somehow deflected. Presenting it in a much higher resolution didn't change things.

 

[Derec]

My concern is about what is left of Gaza. And the cesspool being created that is going to put Israel at greater risk.

Depending on the town or neighborhood, not much is left. While some parts are relatively unscathed, others look like this:

But yes, there is a widespread destruction throughout the Strip. And sometimes "cesspool" is quite literal, as over a million of people in tents still produce a thousand tons of human waste each day, without adequate sewers.

I am skeptical that this will put Israel at "greater risk". Even before 10/7 there was incessant propaganda by the Hamas government preaching hatred against the Israelis. There is also hatred against Israel taught in UNRWA schools.
And as a result of that, terror groups never had any trouble recruiting. Before the war, Hamas had ~40k fighters. Add to that perhaps ~20k belonging to allied groups like Islamic Jihad and PFLP. Now, Gaza has about 550k military age (15-50) males according to this.
That means >10% of military age males have already been recruited as fighters. That's a vast majority of those who would make good fighters anyway (no more than 15%). So there is limited potential to increase the number of fighters save for increase in population - using "the womb of the Arab woman" as a demographic weapon has been Palestinian strategy for decades, and is primarily responsible for the Gaza Strip being as overpopulated as it is. The population now is ~2.4M, but as recently as 2000 it was ~1.1M.
Note that you need money and weapons to train and equip these fighters once recruited, and that's where terror funding by the likes of Iran comes in. Cut off the flow of funds and weapons from Iran, and you will severely cripple terror groups ability to attack Israel.
Now, it is imperative that Hamas and other terror groups be eliminated for Gaza to be rebuilt.
It will take at least 25 years to rebuild Gaza even under favorable conditions - i.e. total destruction of Hamas and allied terror groups, establishment of a government dedicated to peace, coexistence with Israel and development of the Gaza Strip, and support by the international community.
Letting Hamas run Gaza in any capacity means that there will be more attacks on Israel and more wars. Why should anybody fund rebuilding of Gaza if it will get fucked up soon anyway? The Marshall Plan did not give development aid to Nazi Germany, not even to a version of post-war Germany that had any version of the Nazi Party involved in running it.
Gaza should be no different. Any rebuilding should be contingent on dehamasification and dejihadiziation more generally, as well as a full commitment to peace with its neighbors.

Saying Israel "isn't wrong" doesn't undo the instability in Gaza at the moment, which is going to be breeding militants.

How many more militants could possibly be bred now vs. the militants already bred on 10/6/2023?
It is likely >20k militants have been killed since October 2023, >10k were probably seriously wounded.
It will take >30k new recruits just to get to the antebellum manpower.

No other Arab nation is taking these Palestinians in.

I wonder why. And it should make pollyannaish Americans and Europeans who want to take a bunch of Gazans in think twice.
Biden considers allowing some Palestinians from Gaza to come to the U.S. as refugees
Yeah, no. Dearbornistan and Hamtramckabad are more than enough.

Israel's actions have had a reaction, that will make things worse, unless addressed in the short and long term.

You mean Israel's reaction to the action (10/7/2023) by Hamas et al?

Your moral indifference to the Palestinians doesn't make them any less real and susceptible to what impoverished and marginalized people tend to be susceptible to (frustration, anger, radicalization).

Germany after WWII also suffered widespread destruction and many dead. Berlin does not look that different than Gaza City.

Germans did not get more radicalized after WWII. So there is a chance. But Gaza will not get that chance if Israel is pressured to leave Hamas, or some version of Hamas, in power.
Where is Palestinian Konrad Adenauer?

 

[ZiprHead]

View attachment 48972
View attachment 48973
View attachment 48974

WaPo - Unguided ‘dumb bombs’ used in almost half of Israeli strikes on Gaza The revelation, disclosed in a U.S. intelligence assessment, emerged as American officials press Israel to take a more targeted approach to its military campaign

I agree with one part of your rebuttal. I think the IDF knows what they are doing too.

You're not proving your point. Widespread damage is not evidence of war crimes nor is it evidence of massive deaths (that not even Hamas claims.) And your pictures don't look right, either.

Did I mention war crimes? No.

First picture: Some people on the road (and how did that road survive the devastation unless what we are seeing is the result of tunnel collapse?) and some things that look very much like people in the rubble--except they aren't all there. And look at the right side of the image--one line of buildings gone, the next intact. Strangely selective bombing--but it makes perfect sense if they were bombing a tunnel under that mess.

Third picture: I'm not sure what it's supposed to be. We have considerable blast damage apparent, but two tanks untouched and the plants are still there. We've seen AI fuckups before, I suspect this is one.

Look at all that HAMAS propaganda provided by the IDF in those photographs. You do know there were people in those what were once buildings, right?

The death toll does not reflect that. Israel typically calls ahead when hitting infrastructure, those buildings were likely evacuated.

Yeah, like they warn people in "safe zones."

 

[ZiprHead]

I do not consider the deaths "deserved", but I recognize that they're going to happen and blaming Israel every time they happen isn't useful. You're playing right into Hamas' hands. Their track record is extremely good, I don't see how any of us are qualified to second guess their actions. But Hamas parades the dead kids before the cameras and the facts get ignored.

You keep repeating the above yet never provide any proof it it whatsoever.

I've given the numbers, both for Israel and the general result. You provided an article that pretended to say otherwise but didn't actually support it's claim. It recognized the very bloody nature of urban combat, though.

You have never provided a comparison which is required to make your statement correct.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do not consider the deaths "deserved", but I recognize that they're going to happen and blaming Israel every time they happen isn't useful. You're playing right into Hamas' hands. Their track record is extremely good, I don't see how any of us are qualified to second guess their actions. But Hamas parades the dead kids before the cameras and the facts get ignored.

You keep repeating the above yet never provide any proof it it whatsoever.

I've given the numbers, both for Israel and the general result. You provided an article that pretended to say otherwise but didn't actually support it's claim. It recognized the very bloody nature of urban combat, though.

You have never provided a comparison which is required to make your statement correct.

Once you posted that article that claimed it didn't have to be that way but then utterly failed to provide any evidence I figured the issue was moot.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Some more of the horrors perpetrated on the hostages:

Teens forced to perform sexual acts on each other: Report to UN details Hamas torture

Government document compiles grim details of abuse of hostages, including whipping, branding with heated iron, isolation, binding, starving, maltreatment and psychological torment

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Tigers!]

My concern is about what is left of Gaza. And the cesspool being created that is going to put Israel at greater risk. Saying Israel "isn't wrong" doesn't undo the instability in Gaza at the moment, which is going to be breeding militants. No other Arab nation is taking these Palestinians in. Israel's actions have had a reaction, that will make things worse, unless addressed in the short and long term. Your moral indifference to the Palestinians doesn't make them any less real and susceptible to what impoverished and marginalized people tend to be susceptible to (frustration, anger, radicalization).

"Breeding militants" is a distraction. The war exists because of Islamist money, not because of Israel's actions.

I'd have figured you'd be the last to call the future murder of Israelis a "distraction". You sound like W and the Neocons with 9/11 and Iraq.

There are several different ways Israel could have managed a military response to the October attack. What their response has been doesn't have to be what it was, without it being effective.

What are the several different ways that Israel could have managed a military response to the October attack? Quite a few posters keep repeating that but no one has ever bothered to actually list them.

I will list an alternative way that Israel could have managed a military response to the October attack - lie back and think of England. Possible but not going to happen.
It's your turn to try.

 

[laughing dog]

My concern is about what is left of Gaza. And the cesspool being created that is going to put Israel at greater risk. Saying Israel "isn't wrong" doesn't undo the instability in Gaza at the moment, which is going to be breeding militants. No other Arab nation is taking these Palestinians in. Israel's actions have had a reaction, that will make things worse, unless addressed in the short and long term. Your moral indifference to the Palestinians doesn't make them any less real and susceptible to what impoverished and marginalized people tend to be susceptible to (frustration, anger, radicalization).

"Breeding militants" is a distraction. The war exists because of Islamist money, not because of Israel's actions.

I'd have figured you'd be the last to call the future murder of Israelis a "distraction". You sound like W and the Neocons with 9/11 and Iraq.

There are several different ways Israel could have managed a military response to the October attack. What their response has been doesn't have to be what it was, without it being effective.

What are the several different ways that Israel could have managed a military response to the October attack? Quite a few posters keep repeating that but no one has ever bothered to actually list them.

Clearly you are not paying attention. Several posters have given alternatives. At least one answered that direct question of yours.

 

[Tigers!]

My concern is about what is left of Gaza. And the cesspool being created that is going to put Israel at greater risk. Saying Israel "isn't wrong" doesn't undo the instability in Gaza at the moment, which is going to be breeding militants. No other Arab nation is taking these Palestinians in. Israel's actions have had a reaction, that will make things worse, unless addressed in the short and long term. Your moral indifference to the Palestinians doesn't make them any less real and susceptible to what impoverished and marginalized people tend to be susceptible to (frustration, anger, radicalization).

"Breeding militants" is a distraction. The war exists because of Islamist money, not because of Israel's actions.

I'd have figured you'd be the last to call the future murder of Israelis a "distraction". You sound like W and the Neocons with 9/11 and Iraq.

There are several different ways Israel could have managed a military response to the October attack. What their response has been doesn't have to be what it was, without it being effective.

What are the several different ways that Israel could have managed a military response to the October attack? Quite a few posters keep repeating that but no one has ever bothered to actually list them.

Clearly you are not paying attention. Several posters have given alternatives. At least one answered that direct question of yours.

Really? I must have missed that particular post. If I could trouble you for the post number or the author I will go have a look.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

My concern is about what is left of Gaza. And the cesspool being created that is going to put Israel at greater risk.

Depending on the town or neighborhood, not much is left. While some parts are relatively unscathed, others look like this:

But yes, there is a widespread destruction throughout the Strip. And sometimes "cesspool" is quite literal, as over a million of people in tents still produce a thousand tons of human waste each day, without adequate sewers.

I am skeptical that this will put Israel at "greater risk".

Your skepticism isn't relevant. Radicalism arises from this.

Saying Israel "isn't wrong" doesn't undo the instability in Gaza at the moment, which is going to be breeding militants.

How many more militants could possibly be bred now vs. the militants already bred on 10/6/2023?

Tens (hundreds?) of thousands more.

No other Arab nation is taking these Palestinians in.

I wonder why. And it should make pollyannaish Americans and Europeans who want to take a bunch of Gazans in think twice.
Biden considers allowing some Palestinians from Gaza to come to the U.S. as refugees
Yeah, no. Dearbornistan and Hamtramckabad are more than enough.

Israel's actions have had a reaction, that will make things worse, unless addressed in the short and long term.

You mean Israel's reaction to the action (10/7/2023) by Hamas et al?

It doesn't matter if Hamas was the cause of Israel's reaction. You and LP just refuse to accept this. I'm not making a moral condemnation (*shifty eyes*) here. I'm making an empirical observation. The type of observation that was made in Europe between 1946-1950.

Your moral indifference to the Palestinians doesn't make them any less real and susceptible to what impoverished and marginalized people tend to be susceptible to (frustration, anger, radicalization).

Germany after WWII also suffered widespread destruction and many dead. Berlin does not look that different than Gaza City.

Germans did not get more radicalized after WWII.

Sure did after the Great War. The Marshall Plan was enacted and post WWII plans were developed in light of the radicalization and Fascism that grew out of the Treaty of Versailles consequences.

So there is a chance. But Gaza will not get that chance if Israel is pressured to leave Hamas, or some version of Hamas, in power.

Hamas can't be left in power. I've been clear about that in this thread. There is no place for Hamas on this planet.

However, the military will not be who sees to that. LP thinks Hamas can be beaten down and put distance between atrocities. Myself, I want to see the atrocities end. I see this as a multi-national political struggle that can only have a political solution.

 

[laughing dog]

For example, I take it you approve of military action to defeat Hamas. Does that approval include the effective ethnic cleansing or genocide or the deaths of half the civilian population if Gaza?

Yes, if that's what it takes to convince Gazans to get rid of the violent extremists who are currently the Gazans leaders. It would be better if someone could come up with a better way to do that, but nobody has a feasible path towards that. Israel has no reason try, given all the times their efforts to make peace with their Muslim neighbors has resulted in yet more violence against innocent people.

I applaud the honesty and courage to openly demonstrate the sociopathy and bigotry required to endorse ethnic cleansing.

If not, I hope you can begin to understand how meaningless a simple answer to your simple question is.

I hope you can begin to realize how meaningless a simple answer to your simple question is.
But I doubt that you will.
Tom

Your responses provide much practice in meaningless answers.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Perhaps you think I am a weak minded woman?

Not sure what was meant by this.

 

[laughing dog]

My concern is about what is left of Gaza. And the cesspool being created that is going to put Israel at greater risk. Saying Israel "isn't wrong" doesn't undo the instability in Gaza at the moment, which is going to be breeding militants. No other Arab nation is taking these Palestinians in. Israel's actions have had a reaction, that will make things worse, unless addressed in the short and long term. Your moral indifference to the Palestinians doesn't make them any less real and susceptible to what impoverished and marginalized people tend to be susceptible to (frustration, anger, radicalization).

"Breeding militants" is a distraction. The war exists because of Islamist money, not because of Israel's actions.

I'd have figured you'd be the last to call the future murder of Israelis a "distraction". You sound like W and the Neocons with 9/11 and Iraq.

There are several different ways Israel could have managed a military response to the October attack. What their response has been doesn't have to be what it was, without it being effective.

What are the several different ways that Israel could have managed a military response to the October attack? Quite a few posters keep repeating that but no one has ever bothered to actually list them.

Clearly you are not paying attention. Several posters have given alternatives. At least one answered that direct question of yours.

Really? I must have missed that particular post. If I could trouble you for the post number or the author I will go have a look.

Yes you did. There are lots of posts in this thread, so I can understand why you might have missed some of them, but not all of them. Posts #6,280 and #6,163 (which is a direct answer to a question you posed) are but 2 examples.